RedBird and the DC-3 Aircraft.

[William Plumlee]

A little leg work could pay dividends:

A few years ago I went to Redbird Airport. (the name had just been changed can't remember the year I think it was about 1999 or so) I talked with a few 'old dudes" one who was the airport manager at that time and the other who worked for fire rescue on the Redbird Field.

We talked about the old days of Dallas Aviation. I ask if they knew anything about a Flight Instructor by the name of "Smitty", who was a flight instructor at "White Rock Airport" in the early fifties and into the mid sixties. I was told Smitty was still around and lived in Forney Texas. Also, I asked about another Dallas pilot who had flown out of Redbird, White Rock, and Garland in the fifties and sixties, David Ferris. (not Ferrie..,Dave was the son of Jack(? I think) Ferris, ", who had worked for 'Pappy Reeves" at White Rock Airport in the forties and fifties)

In 1963, in November Dave worked at Garland Airport and loaned me his car for a few hours on the day Kennedy was killed. He had the flight logs for Garland for a number of years after that.

Both of these gentleman at RedBird remembered a DC-3 that had been sitting at White Rock Airport for a number of years and it was for sale (1971) This DC-3 had been at Garland around 1969-70 and Dave Ferris was the pilot before he went to work for an Airline in Houston Trans Texas, I think. The DC-3 had been "retro-fitted" at Garland and its engines had been overhauled at Southwest Airmotive Dallas Love Field. The bird was flown over to White Rock from Garland where it was put up for sale.

The DC-3 logs showed it had at one time been registered to 'Atlantic Richfield' (1963) and before that to 'Riddle Airlines" around 1957, I think. Between 1957 and 1969 it had been a charter aircraft for three CIA front companies. It somehow ended up back in the Dallas area around 1968.

Now, I think old aircraft for sale magazines, such as Trader Plane or others of the time (1971-72 have a picture of this aircraft sitting at White Rock Aviation at White Rock with its tail number visible. Another way to check this aircraft is by going into title search for 1971-73 on all DC-3's sold in the Dallas area during that time frame. From there a person could perhaps locate the old records and maintenance records and perhaps the flight logs of this old bird. At one time it was repaired at Redbird Airport by a company that used to belong to Howard Hughes, about 1963-4-5)

What does all this mean. It would show where this old DC3 had been and who she had worked for over the years. Might be a new lead into proving the flight to Dallas on November 22,1963. I find it strange this aircraft was at one time based in Miami, worked for the CIA, and came back to Dallas to end its carreer sitting on an old dirt runway at an old airport outside Dallas, Texas. Its a long shot... but long shots are where we are at these days... Tosh

[Nancy Eldreth]

I had heard (not sure about this) that on the morning of 11/22/63 that you went to see your mother who was in Texas? Is this myth or truth? Don't remember where or from whom?

If you used a car that day for two hours than maybe that is all that you were down in Dallas on 11/22/63?

I don't know if I or anyone can find what you are saying about a plane. Do you have the numbers and letters to the plane at that time? I don't know much Tosh sorry about that, but is the numbers and letters on the other thread? Need them to do an ID of it.

Flight question.

When a private plane flys very low and I mean extremely low and almost hits a tree what does a person on the ground do? Besides run as fast as you can.

At the time I I got the numbers and letters with ease. Who do you call to report that into?

[Antti Hynonen]

William Plumlee Posted Today, 03:15 AM

 

A little leg work could pay dividends:

A few years ago I went to Redbird Airport. (the name had just been changed can't remember the year I think it was about 1999 or so) I talked with a few 'old dudes" one who was the airport manager at that time and the other who worked for fire rescue on the Redbird Field.

Dallas Executive Airport?

[William Plumlee]

I had heard (not sure about this) that on the morning of 11/22/63 that you went to see your mother who was in Texas?  Is this myth or truth? Don't remember where or from whom?

If you used a car that day for two hours than maybe that is all that you were down in Dallas on 11/22/63?

I don't know if I or anyone can find what you are saying about a plane.  Do you have the numbers and letters to the plane at that time?  I don't know much Tosh sorry about that, but is the numbers and letters on the other thread?  Need them to do an ID of it.

Flight question.

When a private plane flys very low and I mean extremely low and almost hits a tree what does a person on the ground do?  Besides run as fast as you can.

At the time I I got the numbers and letters with ease.  Who do you call to report that into?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nancy. I do not remember the tail number of the DC3. That is why I mentioned it was for sale at White Rock (a picture) and the conversations with others about DC3's and old flight instructors around the Dallas area of the time. Perhaps, the tail number can be found by checking aircraft for sale in Dallas around 1971-72. There could not be that many DC3's for sale in Dallas at that time. I think you would go to the FAA Federal Aviation Administration and they could direct you on how to find old registrations and perhaps flight and maint. logs.

You would report unsafe flying or fliers to the FAA in your region. It would help them ID the pilot or pilots that were flying 'unsafe' or in violations of FAA flight rules.

I had time to kill at Garland because of VFR weather delays. A flight instructor who I knew from White Rock, years before, and worked at Garland, loaned me his car "David Ferris". Others on my flight had already left Garland after a phone call and somebody else came and picked them up.

We landed at Garland about 6:30 A.M. about daybreak, or a little before. Rosellie and others left Garland around 7 or 7:30 A.M. The car (Dave Ferris's car) was loaned to me about 8A.M and I was at my step-mothers by 8:30A.M. I had not seen my step mother since my father had died in 1961. I was back at Garland by 9:30 or 10A.M. We left Garland for the ten min hop over to Red Bird about 10Am give or take a few min., arriving at Red Bird around 10:30 or 11AM. Because of the weather delay we were almost late in getting down to the Plaza, because we had to make a stop at a place near the Oak Cliff Country Club. Sergio had to pick up something that he needed at the Plaza. I withheld the trip to my step-mothers because I did not want to implement my family in any of these investigations, because my brother was with the Dallas P.D, in 1992. I was not trying to prove where I was at the time. I had no motive to prove anything. I was asked to tell my story. I recalled events of that day from memory and was led into "speculations and opinions" by others; a big mistake on my part. I did mis speak, once, about Rosellie and where he got off, because of mis leading by the interviews ("...Rosellie-Nicolettle..., Redbird Bird..., Garland.. When did Nicolettle get off your plane?" ect.... "Nicolettle was not on my plan..." Read it for yourself. This was discussed at the time and I was told it would be corrected. It was never corrected. Rosellie got off at Garland, not RedBird. And too, Nicolettle was NOT on my flight and he did not get off at Red Bird as some have said I said. It was not a true transcript as to what I said and meant. And I told Joe West this before he died and I told Bob Vernon this many, many times. He refused to correct it.

I have learned a lot these past few years as to who to trust. Nobody.

Nancy your a good researcher. Focus only on what your doing at the moment. Cover that, then move on to the next issue.., then the next... facts.., facts..,facts. Opinions are for books and entertainment. facts or for truth not 'here-say or third party gossip... You posted a letter from Files. In that letter was nothing spacific. Thats why I ask you to go back to him and get something tangible as to what he has said....example "...we worked together on many missions..." is not good enough and should not be posted as facts. Send me spacifics as to what Files says about our working together. Thats a friend talking and not meant to offend you.

Go get'um, girl... Tosh

[Chris Cox]

Tosh, that's really good research. For example, I received some FAA stuff through FOIA program. All on disk. It was a very good resource and led to some planes/info for my research. You & Sherry gave me this idea and it was a good lead to recoup some lost history.

The IDs don't change unless the FAA retires the N number and that takes a long time. I'm sure you know this but there are records of a vehicles life, filed away. Like a VIN number, it yields alot of history of the craft. Where it's been who owned/operated it, etc.

Old junker planes, like old ships are often left un-bothered, tho' worn, unless they are chopped or sold at auction. Ride by any old marina or airfield and you see a few of 'em, right?

I remember riding through the Jersey Pine Barrens and saw a big plane, intact through the trees(I swear a B-26) sitting in a junkyard in middle of nowhere. Who knows all it had been through, but it is possible to find out.

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, that's really good research.  For example, I received some FAA stuff through FOIA program.  All on disk.  It was a very good resource and led to some planes/info for my research.  You & Sherry gave me this idea and it was a good lead to recoup some lost history.

The IDs don't change unless the FAA retires the N number and that takes a long time.  I'm sure you know this but there are records of a vehicles life, filed away.  Like a VIN number, it yields alot of history of the craft.  Where it's been who owned/operated it, etc. 

Old junker planes, like old ships are often left un-bothered, tho' worn, unless they are chopped or sold at auction.  Ride by any old marina or airfield and you see a few of 'em, right?

I remember riding through the Jersey Pine Barrens and saw a big plane, intact through the trees(I swear a B-26) sitting in a junkyard in middle of nowhere.  Who knows all it had been through, but it is possible to find out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Christy. My point. Thanks for bringing this out. Its a lead to follow and could lead to interesting material. It did in reference to your father and Sherry's father.. Example Jack Rylie of Hollywood Florida. Right? What other aircraft did Jack Rylie move around for the "Company". Take care little one... Tosh

Edited November 8, 2004 by William Plumlee

[Nancy Eldreth]

I had heard (not sure about this) that on the morning of 11/22/63 that you went to see your mother who was in Texas?  Is this myth or truth? Don't remember where or from whom?

If you used a car that day for two hours than maybe that is all that you were down in Dallas on 11/22/63?

I don't know if I or anyone can find what you are saying about a plane.  Do you have the numbers and letters to the plane at that time?  I don't know much Tosh sorry about that, but is the numbers and letters on the other thread?  Need them to do an ID of it.

Flight question.

When a private plane flys very low and I mean extremely low and almost hits a tree what does a person on the ground do?  Besides run as fast as you can.

At the time I I got the numbers and letters with ease.  Who do you call to report that into?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nancy. I do not remember the tail number of the DC3. That is why I mentioned it was for sale at White Rock (a picture) and the conversations with others about DC3's and old flight instructors around the Dallas area of the time. Perhaps, the tail number can be found by checking aircraft for sale in Dallas around 1971-72. There could not be that many DC3's for sale in Dallas at that time. I think you would go to the FAA Federal Aviation Administration and they could direct you on how to find old registrations and perhaps flight and maint. logs.

You would report unsafe flying or fliers to the FAA in your region. It would help them ID the pilot or pilots that were flying 'unsafe' or in violations of FAA flight rules.

I had time to kill at Garland because of VFR weather delays. A flight instructor who I knew from White Rock, years before, and worked at Garland, loaned me his car "David Ferris". Others on my flight had already left Garland after a phone call and somebody else came and picked them up.

We landed at Garland about 6:30 A.M. about daybreak, or a little before. Rosellie and others left Garland around 7 or 7:30 A.M. The car (Dave Ferris's car) was loaned to me about 8A.M and I was at my step-mothers by 8:30A.M. I had not seen my step mother since my father had died in 1961. I was back at Garland by 9:30 or 10A.M. We left Garland for the ten min hop over to Red Bird about 10Am give or take a few min., arriving at Red Bird around 10:30 or 11AM. Because of the weather delay we were almost late in getting down to the Plaza, because we had to make a stop at a place near the Oak Cliff Country Club. Sergio had to pick up something that he needed at the Plaza. I withheld the trip to my step-mothers because I did not want to implement my family in any of these investigations, because my brother was with the Dallas P.D, in 1992. I was not trying to prove where I was at the time. I had no motive to prove anything. I was asked to tell my story. I recalled events of that day from memory and was led into "speculations and opinions" by others; a big mistake on my part. I did mis speak, once, about Rosellie and where he got off, because of mis leading by the interviews ("...Rosellie-Nicolettle..., Redbird Bird..., Garland.. When did Nicolettle get off your plane?" ect.... "Nicolettle was not on my plan..." Read it for yourself. This was discussed at the time and I was told it would be corrected. It was never corrected. Rosellie got off at Garland, not RedBird. And too, Nicolettle was NOT on my flight and he did not get off at Red Bird as some have said I said. It was not a true transcript as to what I said and meant. And I told Joe West this before he died and I told Bob Vernon this many, many times. He refused to correct it.

I have learned a lot these past few years as to who to trust. Nobody.

Nancy your a good researcher. Focus only on what your doing at the moment. Cover that, then move on to the next issue.., then the next... facts.., facts..,facts. Opinions are for books and entertainment. facts or for truth not 'here-say or third party gossip... You posted a letter from Files. In that letter was nothing spacific. Thats why I ask you to go back to him and get something tangible as to what he has said....example "...we worked together on many missions..." is not good enough and should not be posted as facts. Send me spacifics as to what Files says about our working together. Thats a friend talking and not meant to offend you.

Go get'um, girl... Tosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tosh,

In no way do you offend me, as a matter of fact thank for your kind answers. The letter of all of your statments have been sent to Files, mailed this morning. It takes about three weeks sometimes less to receive a reply back from him. Jimmy, likes to try to answer mine as soon as possible. That much I will state is fact. The delay is more to the prison and what they do with them before he receives it. His letters still as far as I know does go through a commission and has to be stamped for approval for him to even hold the letter in his hands. Then it still goes throw the second check, the prison check, so his letters details two buildings before he gets it.

I never had a letter declined as of yet, or for that matter even one page of any letter.

To clear this up totally, I asked that he write directly to you because it will be posted up and I have a feeling it will be on this forum. I have a gut feeling that he will be amazing in his answers and at full length to you. Not to mention far more open than he has been in the past. I do look forward to this.

Also he has a good memory even though he says sometimes he does not. He goes by months sometimes and if pressured will bring it down to the week if he has a command of orders surrounding any event, those events helps him to remember a lot. I know he will answer you, with out any doubt.

Also, when you went to the prison to see Files to get these answers for yourself. He never even knew you were there. He has mentioned you in a few letters not just this one letter. I think about four times. He seemed upset and didn't believe me when i told hm that you were there.

He has mentioned E. Howard Hunt about two times. One stated that Hunt never liked him much he messed up on a few operations, so therefore he wasn't Hunt's favorite.

Frank Sturgis, was the one closest to Files and also David Ferrie. Upset when both were gone.

The rest I guess you know from what you have read and been told. Not to sure that the E. Howard Hunt was ever named before and on that point.

As far as I know Files does claim he is very honest with me. Seems so much different than on the tapes. He does say more in the letters because they are more private. On the other hand of it, is the oppostie sometimes he tells me I can't answer all of your questions because I CAN'T, and then makes it confusing as well with the point I don't know the answers to some of them. Most part he does answer them though.

Except when a few times I hit the JFK contract. The biggest he is most silent on. Not open like most think. SILENT.

After Files answer you, I would like to talk to you in private on emails. Some things can't be told on open fourm. Never were either. I don't tell as much as most people think I do.

Edited November 9, 2004 by Nancy Eldreth