Masen gun shop matching shells are "soft point" hunting ammo

[David Josephs]

Thanks Gary... (btw - from you, FWIW is quite a lot)

I've posted the entire letter which appears to me to say that the 3-shot scenario, by the end of April, was still on the table and was going to be the conclusion.

I've focused on WCD298 for some time now. Done in early Decemebr and presented to the Commission in early January this FBI conclusion is 3 shots - 3 hits... the 3rd hit down by the stairs.

The SS in CE884 & CE873 showing the SS supporting the FBI's version of a shot almost 40 feet further down Elm.

If Redlich et al were trying to make sure the SBT got into the report, why does he start off with the offered conclusion about what the report will presumably state?

The reconstructions, along with most every other POS bit of evidence CREATED for the purpose of displacing historical reality with repetitious examples of what they wanted history to reflect, are just that, junk. They don't work with each other, with West or with any study of the physcial realities of DP.

CE399 was - imo - with Rowley and given to Todd to replace the bullet found at Parkland. It was never in Dallas nor was it ever shot at a human. But it was necessary to connect the other fabricated pieces of evidence to Oswald.

(I include the images for those not overly familar with the evidence offered...)

April 27, 1964

MEMORANDUM

TO: J. Lee Rankin

FROM: Norman Redlich

The purpose of this memorandum is to explain the reasons why

certain members of the staff feel that it is important to take certain

on-site photographs in connection with the location of the approximate

points at which the three bullets struck the occupants of the

Presidential limousine.

Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by

the first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President

by the third and fatal bullet. The report will also conclude that the

bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast

corner window of the TSBD building.

As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown

that these events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested

above. All we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be

supported by the medical testimony but which has not been checked out

against the physical facts at the scene of the assassination.

Our examination of the Zapruder films shows that the fatal

third shot struck the President at a point which we can locate with

reasonable accuracy on the ground. We can do this because we know the

exact frame (no. 313) in the film at which the third shot hit the

President and we know the location of the photographer. By lining up

fixed objects in the movie frame where this shot occurs we feel that

we have determined the approximate location of this shot. This can be

verified by a photo of the same spot from the point where Zapruder was

standing.

We have the testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally that the

Governor was hit with the second bullet at a point which we probably

cannot fix with precision. We feel we have established, however, with

the help of medical testimony, that the shot which hit the Governor

did not come after frame 240 on the Zapruder film. The governor feels

that it came around 230, which is certainly consistent with our

observations of the film and with the doctor's testimony. Since the

President was shot at frame 313, this would leave a time of at least 4

seconds between the two shots, certainly ample for even an

inexperienced marksman.

Prior to our last viewing of the films with Governor Connally

we had assumed that the President was hit while he was concealed

behind the sign which occurs between frames 215-225. We have expert

testimony to the effect that a skilled marksman would require a

minimum 2 seconds between shots with this rifle. Since the camera

operates at 18 1/3 frames per second, there would have to be a minimum

of 40 frames between shots. It is apparent, therefore, that if

Governor Connally was even as late as frame 240, the President would

have to have been hit no later than frame 190 and probably even

earlier.

We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine

whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to

frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which

corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish

by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the

President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy,

but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.

I had always assumed that our final report would be

accompanied by a surveyor's diagram which would indicate the

approximate location of the three shots. We certainly cannot prepare

such a diagram without establishing that we are describing an

occurrence which is physically possible. Our failure to do this will,

in my opinion, place this Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty

that others will examine the Zapruder films and raise the same

questions which have been raised by our examination of the films. If

we do not attempt to answer these observable facts, others may answer

them with facts which challenge our most basic assumptions, or with

fanciful theories based on our unwillingness to test our assumptions

by the investigatory methods available to us.

I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession,

submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service,

are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely

misleading picture.

It may well be that this project should be undertaken by the

FBI and Secret Service with our assistance instead of being done as a

staff project. The important thing is that the project be undertaken

expeditiously.

[Gary Murr]

It is only my opinion, David, and I will offer a "Reader's Digest" version as it is an extremely complex subject matter. In essence, and again IMO, I have concluded that Redlich et al were well aware of what they would find when they arrived in Dealey Plaza for the staff controlled reconstruction, May 24th. Actually, the reconstruction effort was originally scheduled for a week earlier, May 17th, but was postponed a week. The main reason for this was that once Rankin had given the commission staff his blessing for the reconstruction, something that he was probably always going to do, he had labored under the assumption that the FBI, on behalf of the commission, still possessed Zapruder's camera and thus it could be used in DP. Unfortunately, this was not the case so the FBI were contacted and asked to re-acquire the camera for reconstruction use purposes. Again, IMO the staff counsel most interested in "selling" the Commission group of seven the SBT intended to use the reconstruction to elaborate on the fallacies of the FBI/SS reconstruction efforts already on the record. In essence it was to a certain extent a redundant charade foisted off onto the Commission, most of whom were more than willing to accept it. What they had to assure was "physically possible" was the SBT, a theoretical concept of linearity that focused on the linear "truth" of the SBT - i.e. Kennedy and Connally "line-up", no whole bullet found in the limo, a bullet of [questionable] lineage found at Parkland, miserably tortured by Specter into being found, in turn, on Connally's stretcher, thus voila, it works! Of course the hypothesis requiring "substantiation" of the underlying conclusion that Oswald was guilty is the SBT and nothing else. In summary then, and again only my opinion, the staff controlled reconstruction undertaken in DP over that May 24th weekend was utilized for, at minimum, two purposes: [1] undercut the reconstruction conclusions reached by the FBI and SS - in particular make sure potentially valid points of "late" impact plotted by the FBI/SS were "moved" and, [2] the only solution viable is/was to be the SBT. I further feel that Melvin Eisenberg and others had already worked out the distances to be used once the reconstruction was underway and had done so well in advance of the actual reconstruction effort.

Again, FWIW

[David Josephs]

The only reason to step away from the 3 shot-3 hit scenario is the coming forward of Tague. (edit - I correct this statement in a minute... it had nothing to do with Tague)

I'm trying to find reports on Tague earlier than July 15, 1964 - specifically prior to the April 27th Redlich letter that would confirm these lawyers were pushing the SBT at this point.

Can you help by pointing us to the first document you know of which begins to consider the SBT?

Says here https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96427&relPageId=5 that Tague was interviewed with results in Gemberling's 12-23 report p31....

I was able to track it down - are you aware of anything between this report and April 27 1964 which would give you the impression the WC lawyers were leaning towards the SBT?

And if this be the case, the SBT could not be born until after Tague comes forward....

Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can recall. I left the area down there at about a quarter to one, and the officer there told me to go to the police headquarters and report to somebody down there and tell them what I had seen.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that?
Mr. TAGUE. I did that.

I cant find this report in the DPD archives - you?

"G.F. Rose" is Gus Rose, yes? there are no other Rose's listed other than Earl.

http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/History/The_deed/Sneed/Tague.html

I think I got to police headquarters about 1:15 because I stopped and called the person I was to have had the luncheon engagement with and also called my father and told him that Kennedy had been killed. He said, "Jim, I'm watching the TV and they said he's still alive."
I told him, "Dad, believe me, he's dead because I was there!"
I found out years later by accident that the detective that I gave the statement to in Homicide at police headquarters was Gus Rose.

In any case, while I was in Gus Rose's office giving him a statement, there was a commotion to our right as Oswald was brought in. Matter of fact, they put him in the office next to the one we were in. Mr. Rose told me, "That's the guy that shot the policeman over in Oak Cliff."
I said, "I didn't know there'd been a policeman shot."
He responded, "Yeah, killed him!" That was the extent of the conversation. There was no connection to the President.

Immediately after the assassination there was talk abut three shots which was the same number I heard and that all three had hit Kennedy and Connally. All three shots were accounted for. Well, I knew that our great government, the FBI, the Secret service, they're smart and they were going to find out the truth about what really happened. They'd dig in and be coming around to me to find out about this one shot which had missed and hit the curb near me. Later I told friends, "Hey, I was there and that one shot missed."
These people replied, "No, no, you're wrong, Jim."
After a couple of weeks with this persisting in the papers, I picked up the phone, called the FBI and said, "Hey, there was one shot that missed!"

Yet according to Rose's reports he arrived at 2pm http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/01/0152-001.gif

==============

From what I can tell, the SBT was born from the Zfilm problems between JFK's reaction and JC's between Z200 and Z224 - and had little to do with Tague.

Yet WCD298 used the Zfilm and other films and photos to reconstruct the shooting sequence... (SA Leo Gauthier testimony and WCD298 text)

There is nothing in any of the evidence available to us that puts a shot down within 4 feet of 5+00... yet that was the SS and FBI conclusion. Did they see something we didn't or are they just pulling this out of their a$$es...

Is this definitive proof that the Zfilm was altered to remove frames and movement between 200 and 224 as well as further down Elm?

Now I can see if Spector and the rest of the WC lawyers see the film for the first time AFTER it's been altered, the SS and FBI reports would indeed be incorrect... to the new evidnece, not to what actually happened.

These reports were never changed or fixed.

Yet, somehow the Autopsy describes the results from the SBT, before WCD298 is even produced and without actually dissecting the area... pretty amazing guess work!

Date 11/22/63 1300 (CST)

Prosecter: CDR J.J. Humes, MC, USA (497831)

2. The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in
the upper right posterior thorax. Beneath the skin there is ecchymosis
of subcutaneous tissue and musculature. The missile path through
the fascia and musculature cannot be easily proved. The wound
presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Perry of
Dallas in the low anterior cervical region. When observed by Dr.
Perry the wound measured "a few millimeters in diameter", however
it was extended as a tracheostomy incision and thus its character is
distorted at the time of autopsy. However there is considerable
eccymosis of the strap muscles of the right side of the neck and of
the fascia about the trachea adjacent to the line of the tracheostomy
wound. The third point of reference in connecting these two wounds
is in the apex (supra-clavicular portion) of the right pleural cavity. In
this region there is contusion of the parietal pleura and of the extreme
apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. In both instances
the diameter of contusion and ecchymosis at the point of maximal
involvement measures 5 cm. Both the visceral and parietal pleura are
intact overlying these areas of trauma

The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above
the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and
the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck.
This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura
and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The
missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck,
damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of
the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony
structures in its path through the body.

Edited February 25, 2015 by David Josephs

[Thomas Graves]

The only reason to step away from the 3 shot-3 hit scenario is the coming forward of Tague. (edit - I correct this statement in a minute... it had nothing to do with Tague)

I'm trying to find reports on Tague earlier than July 15, 1964 - specifically prior to the April 27th Redlich letter that would confirm these lawyers were pushing the SBT at this point.

Can you help by pointing us to the first document you know of which begins to consider the SBT?

Says here https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96427&relPageId=5 that Tague was interviewed with results in Gemberling's 12-23 report p31....

I was able to track it down - are you aware of anything between this report and April 27 1964 which would give you the impression the WC lawyers were leaning towards the SBT?

And if this be the case, the SBT could not be born until after Tague comes forward....

Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can recall. I left the area down there at about a quarter to one, and the officer there told me to go to the police headquarters and report to somebody down there and tell them what I had seen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that?

Mr. TAGUE. I did that.

I cant find this report in the DPD archives - you?

"G.F. Rose" is Gus Rose, yes? there are no other Rose's listed other than Earl.

http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/History/The_deed/Sneed/Tague.html

I think I got to police headquarters about 1:15 because I stopped and called the person I was to have had the luncheon engagement with and also called my father and told him that Kennedy had been killed. He said, "Jim, I'm watching the TV and they said he's still alive."

I told him, "Dad, believe me, he's dead because I was there!"

I found out years later by accident that the detective that I gave the statement to in Homicide at police headquarters was Gus Rose.

In any case, while I was in Gus Rose's office giving him a statement, there was a commotion to our right as Oswald was brought in. Matter of fact, they put him in the office next to the one we were in. Mr. Rose told me, "That's the guy that shot the policeman over in Oak Cliff."

I said, "I didn't know there'd been a policeman shot."

He responded, "Yeah, killed him!" That was the extent of the conversation. There was no connection to the President.

Immediately after the assassination there was talk abut three shots which was the same number I heard and that all three had hit Kennedy and Connally. All three shots were accounted for. Well, I knew that our great government, the FBI, the Secret service, they're smart and they were going to find out the truth about what really happened. They'd dig in and be coming around to me to find out about this one shot which had missed and hit the curb near me. Later I told friends, "Hey, I was there and that one shot missed."

These people replied, "No, no, you're wrong, Jim."

After a couple of weeks with this persisting in the papers, I picked up the phone, called the FBI and said, "Hey, there was one shot that missed!"

Yet according to Rose's reports he arrived at 2pm http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/01/0152-001.gif

==============

From what I can tell, the SBT was born from the Zfilm problems between JFK's reaction and JC's between Z200 and Z224 - and had little to do with Tague.

Yet WCD298 used the Zfilm and other films and photos to reconstruct the shooting sequence... (SA Leo Gauthier testimony and WCD298 text)

There is nothing in any of the evidence available to us that puts a shot down within 4 feet of 5+00... yet that was the SS and FBI conclusion. Did they see something we didn't or are they just pulling this out of their a$$es...

Is this definitive proof that the Zfilm was altered to remove frames and movement between 200 and 224 as well as further down Elm?

Now I can see if Spector and the rest of the WC lawyers see the film for the first time AFTER it's been altered, the SS and FBI reports would indeed be incorrect... to the new evidnece, not to what actually happened.

These reports were never changed or fixed.

Yet, somehow the Autopsy describes the results from the SBT, before WCD298 is even produced and without actually dissecting the area... pretty amazing guess work!

Date 11/22/63 1300 (CST)

Prosecter: CDR J.J. Humes, MC, USA (497831)

2. The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in

the upper right posterior thorax. Beneath the skin there is ecchymosis

of subcutaneous tissue and musculature. The missile path through

the fascia and musculature cannot be easily proved. The wound

presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Perry of

Dallas in the low anterior cervical region. When observed by Dr.

Perry the wound measured "a few millimeters in diameter", however

it was extended as a tracheostomy incision and thus its character is

distorted at the time of autopsy. However there is considerable

eccymosis of the strap muscles of the right side of the neck and of

the fascia about the trachea adjacent to the line of the tracheostomy

wound. The third point of reference in connecting these two wounds

is in the apex (supra-clavicular portion) of the right pleural cavity. In

this region there is contusion of the parietal pleura and of the extreme

apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. In both instances

the diameter of contusion and ecchymosis at the point of maximal

involvement measures 5 cm. Both the visceral and parietal pleura are

intact overlying these areas of trauma

The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above

the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and

the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck.

This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura

and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The

missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck,

damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of

the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony

structures in its path through the body.

For some reason I can't quite bring myself to read the whole post (at least not yet), but I understand correctly what I have read of it , I think you're asking whether or not the "magic bullet" or "single bullet" scenario was considered by the Warren Commission's lawyers before Tague's wound at Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 became known to them. I think that's an excellent question because if it can be shown that they weren't considering the "magic bullet" or "single bullet" scenario "before Tague," then it's obvious that they adopted that scenario only because of Tague.

Am I paraphrasing the issue, as you have framed it, correctly?

--Tommy

Edited February 25, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

Tommy - I am saying that with a little research we come to find that it was the Zfilm (shots too close together) and not Tague that changed the location and number of bullets...

That Tague was not an issue between Dec and July and only becomes one due to an article written about him.

What bothers me is that WCD298 and the SS account are derived from something... from some evidence which points them to a spot 40 feet past z313 on Elm for a shot.

And WCD298 does not attempt to put two shots closer together than Z313 and Z375 (the foot of the stairs shot in WCD298)

If the SBT was not considered until April 1964 -

How does the autopsy report include its exact description in Nov/Dec?

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy - I am saying that with a little research we come to find that it was the Zfilm (shots too close together) and not Tague that changed the location and number of bullets...

That Tague was not an issue between Dec and July and only becomes one due to an article written about him.

What bothers me is that WCD298 and the SS account are derived from something... from some evidence which points them to a spot 40 feet past z313 on Elm for a shot.

And WCD298 does not attempt to put two shots closer together than Z313 and Z375 (the foot of the stairs shot in WCD298)

If the SBT was not considered until April 1964 -

How does the autopsy report include its exact description in Nov/Dec?

Jo Jo,

Nice synopsis and very well-written if I don't say so, myself. LOL

Thanks for explaining that.

--Tommy

[Ollie Curme]

I think the reason the autopsy results supported the single bullet theory had nothing to do with shot timing. It was simply to remove any hint of a shot from the front in order to support the Lone Nut Theory which became the dominant narrative well before the final version of the autopsy report was delivered at 6PM on Sunday.

[David Josephs]

I think the reason the autopsy results supported the single bullet theory had nothing to do with shot timing. It was simply to remove any hint of a shot from the front in order to support the Lone Nut Theory which became the dominant narrative well before the final version of the autopsy report was delivered at 6PM on Sunday.

Appreciate the opinion Ollie. Yet if you look closely at the autopsy report http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0501b.htm that conclusion is not part of it. The SBT only comes into being in April 1964. Until then it was 3 shots, 3 hits, with the back to front torso thru the neck shot just that, a shot that went thru JFK. The theory is that Humes' notes and initial report more closely mirrored the Sibert/O'Neill report - a shallow non-traversing back wound with potentially a fragment exiting the throat and therefore had to disappear in favor of a transiting wound...

The real question becomes how, in January 1964 does Rankin refer to an autopsy report he obviously has read, but which does not exist in the evidence. ooops!

Mr. Rankin:

Then there‘s a great range of material in regards to the wound and the autopsy and this point of exit or entrance of the bullet in the front of the neck, and that all has to be developed much more than we have at the present time.

We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent, since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the right of the backbone, which is below the place where the picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through.

So that how it could turn, and --

Rep. Boggs. I thought I read that bullet just went in a finger's length. (Boggs obviously read the Sibert/O'Neill report and not this version of the autopsy)

Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said

The work Humes did on the skull, the work Ebersole does on the xrays is related to the reversal of a frontal shot to a rear one... the shot to the rear torso of JFK is consistent with a single shooter from behind.

If the autopsy in January says the above, when did the autopsy released in Sept 1964 in the WCR come into being?

DJ

Edited March 5, 2015 by David Josephs

[Robert Prudhomme]

Bob...

Thought you might find this interesting and maybe help us less informed about guns and ammo people if this means anything ...

Seems the only two places in the Dallas-Irving area to get 6.5mm MC ammo was one of 2 places including Masens Gun shop.

The report below states that the ammo provided by Masen matched the cartridges found on the 6th floor... yet they were loaded with soft point ammo, not FMJ ammo.

Any significance to this?

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11176&relPageId=4

Hi Dave

Sorry for my long absence. I have made an effort to contact both John Brinegar and John Masen. Brinegar's store must have closed down many years ago, as his trail is quite cold. The best lead I could get is that he had moved to Alaska some time in the mid-60's. OTOH, Mr. Masen is still alive and well and living in Dallas. The gun store he established is still doing a thriving business, although his family now runs it for him. I have made several requests to contact Mr. Masen but, sadly, all have been politely denied.

The reason Mr. Masen had a box of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges loaded with soft point hunting bullets is very simple. Some of Mr. Masen's customers owned Carcanos and the only ammo available would have been Italian SMI full metal jacket or WCC full metal jacket bullets. As FMJ bullets are universally banned from hunting (due to their resistance to expand in a wound), this meant these owners were restricted to target shooting with their Carcanos. Using a bullet puller, Mr. Masen would extract the FMJ bullet, and seat a soft point hunting bullet into the neck of the cartridge.

However, this presents an interesting problem, and the reason I wished to speak with Mr. Masen. WC supporters have long maintained the WCC cartridges were made exactly to Italian specs, including the bullets loaded into the cartridges being the required .268 inch diameter. As I have stated before, the Carcano, with its uniquely deep rifling grooves, had to shoot a bullet .268 inch in diameter in order to be accurate, while the vast majority of other 6.5mm rifles shot a bullet .264 inch in diameter.Therefore, if Mr. Masen pulled .268 inch FMJ bullets from the WCC cartridges, he would have had to replace them with .264 inch SP bullets, as there would not have been .268 inch SP bullets available in 1963.

Of course, the .264 inch bullets would have been a sloppy fit in a .268 inch neck. Was he required to resize the cartridge necks in a die? Or were the WCC cartridges loaded with .264 inch bullets, and no resizing was required?

Edited March 9, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Bob...

Thought you might find this interesting and maybe help us less informed about guns and ammo people if this means anything ...

Seems the only two places in the Dallas-Irving area to get 6.5mm MC ammo was one of 2 places including Masens Gun shop.

The report below states that the ammo provided by Masen matched the cartridges found on the 6th floor... yet they were loaded with soft point ammo, not FMJ ammo.

Any significance to this?

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11176&relPageId=4

Hi Dave

Sorry for my long absence. I have made an effort to contact both John Brinegar and John Masen. Brinegar's store must have closed down many years ago, as his trail is quite cold. The best lead I could get is that he had moved to Alaska some time in the mid-60's. OTOH, Mr. Masen is still alive and well and living in Dallas. The gun store he established is still doing a thriving business, although his family now runs it for him. I have made several requests to contact Mr. Masen but, sadly, all have been politely denied.

The reason Mr. Masen had a box of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges loaded with soft point hunting bullets is very simple. Some of Mr. Masen's customers owned Carcanos and the only ammo available would have been Italian SMI full metal jacket or WCC full metal jacket bullets. As FMJ bullets are universally banned from hunting (due to their resistance to expand in a wound), this meant these owners were restricted to target shooting with their Carcanos. Using a bullet puller, Mr. Masen would extract the FMJ bullet, and seat a soft point hunting bullet into the neck of the cartridge.

However, this presents an interesting problem, and the reason I wished to speak with Mr. Masen. WC supporters have long maintained the WCC cartridges were made exactly to Italian specs, including the bullets loaded into the cartridges being the required .268 inch diameter. As I have stated before, the Carcano, with its uniquely deep rifling grooves, had to shoot a bullet .268 inch in diameter in order to be accurate, while the vast majority of other 6.5mm rifles shot a bullet .264 inch in diameter.Therefore, if Mr. Masen pulled .268 inch FMJ bullets from the WCC cartridges, he would have had to replace them with .264 inch SP bullets, as there would not have been .268 inch SP bullets available in 1963.

Of course, the .264 inch bullets would have been a sloppy fit in a .268 inch neck. Was he required to resize the cartridge necks in a die? Or were the WCC cartridges loaded with .264 inch bullets, and no resizing was required?

Bob...

Thought you might find this interesting and maybe help us less informed about guns and ammo people if this means anything ...

Seems the only two places in the Dallas-Irving area to get 6.5mm MC ammo was one of 2 places including Masens Gun shop.

The report below states that the ammo provided by Masen matched the cartridges found on the 6th floor... yet they were loaded with soft point ammo, not FMJ ammo.

Any significance to this?

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11176&relPageId=4

Hi Dave

Sorry for my long absence. I have made an effort to contact both John Brinegar and John Masen. Brinegar's store must have closed down many years ago, as his trail is quite cold. The best lead I could get is that he had moved to Alaska some time in the mid-60's. OTOH, Mr. Masen is still alive and well and living in Dallas. The gun store he established is still doing a thriving business, although his family now runs it for him. I have made several requests to contact Mr. Masen but, sadly, all have been politely denied.

The reason Mr. Masen had a box of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges loaded with soft point hunting bullets is very simple. Some of Mr. Masen's customers owned Carcanos and the only ammo available would have been Italian SMI full metal jacket or WCC full metal jacket bullets. As FMJ bullets are universally banned from hunting (due to their resistance to expand in a wound), this meant these owners were restricted to target shooting with their Carcanos. Using a bullet puller, Mr. Masen would extract the FMJ bullet, and seat a soft point hunting bullet into the neck of the cartridge.

However, this presents an interesting problem, and the reason I wished to speak with Mr. Masen. WC supporters have long maintained the WCC cartridges were made exactly to Italian specs, including the bullets loaded into the cartridges being the required .268 inch diameter. As I have stated before, the Carcano, with its uniquely deep rifling grooves, had to shoot a bullet .268 inch in diameter in order to be accurate, while the vast majority of other 6.5mm rifles shot a bullet .264 inch in diameter.Therefore, if Mr. Masen pulled .268 inch FMJ bullets from the WCC cartridges, he would have had to replace them with .264 inch SP bullets, as there would not have been .268 inch SP bullets available in 1963.

Of course, the .264 inch bullets would have been a sloppy fit in a .268 inch neck. Was he required to resize the cartridge necks in a die? Or were the WCC cartridges loaded with .264 inch bullets, and no resizing was required?

Robert,

Maybe you could send him a letter asking these questions?

--Tommy

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Mason is a curious figure. However, I think the real importance is that the FBI could not find any locations where Oswald purchased ammo. He didnt buy any when the rifle was purchased (my gun enthusiast friends say that almost never happens) and there were no fingerprints on the shells found in the TSBD.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Bob...

Thought you might find this interesting and maybe help us less informed about guns and ammo people if this means anything ...

Seems the only two places in the Dallas-Irving area to get 6.5mm MC ammo was one of 2 places including Masens Gun shop.

The report below states that the ammo provided by Masen matched the cartridges found on the 6th floor... yet they were loaded with soft point ammo, not FMJ ammo.

Any significance to this?

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11176&relPageId=4

Hi Dave

Sorry for my long absence. I have made an effort to contact both John Brinegar and John Masen. Brinegar's store must have closed down many years ago, as his trail is quite cold. The best lead I could get is that he had moved to Alaska some time in the mid-60's. OTOH, Mr. Masen is still alive and well and living in Dallas. The gun store he established is still doing a thriving business, although his family now runs it for him. I have made several requests to contact Mr. Masen but, sadly, all have been politely denied.

The reason Mr. Masen had a box of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges loaded with soft point hunting bullets is very simple. Some of Mr. Masen's customers owned Carcanos and the only ammo available would have been Italian SMI full metal jacket or WCC full metal jacket bullets. As FMJ bullets are universally banned from hunting (due to their resistance to expand in a wound), this meant these owners were restricted to target shooting with their Carcanos. Using a bullet puller, Mr. Masen would extract the FMJ bullet, and seat a soft point hunting bullet into the neck of the cartridge.

However, this presents an interesting problem, and the reason I wished to speak with Mr. Masen. WC supporters have long maintained the WCC cartridges were made exactly to Italian specs, including the bullets loaded into the cartridges being the required .268 inch diameter. As I have stated before, the Carcano, with its uniquely deep rifling grooves, had to shoot a bullet .268 inch in diameter in order to be accurate, while the vast majority of other 6.5mm rifles shot a bullet .264 inch in diameter.Therefore, if Mr. Masen pulled .268 inch FMJ bullets from the WCC cartridges, he would have had to replace them with .264 inch SP bullets, as there would not have been .268 inch SP bullets available in 1963.

Of course, the .264 inch bullets would have been a sloppy fit in a .268 inch neck. Was he required to resize the cartridge necks in a die? Or were the WCC cartridges loaded with .264 inch bullets, and no resizing was required?

Bob...

Thought you might find this interesting and maybe help us less informed about guns and ammo people if this means anything ...

Seems the only two places in the Dallas-Irving area to get 6.5mm MC ammo was one of 2 places including Masens Gun shop.

The report below states that the ammo provided by Masen matched the cartridges found on the 6th floor... yet they were loaded with soft point ammo, not FMJ ammo.

Any significance to this?

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11176&relPageId=4

Hi Dave

Sorry for my long absence. I have made an effort to contact both John Brinegar and John Masen. Brinegar's store must have closed down many years ago, as his trail is quite cold. The best lead I could get is that he had moved to Alaska some time in the mid-60's. OTOH, Mr. Masen is still alive and well and living in Dallas. The gun store he established is still doing a thriving business, although his family now runs it for him. I have made several requests to contact Mr. Masen but, sadly, all have been politely denied.

The reason Mr. Masen had a box of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges loaded with soft point hunting bullets is very simple. Some of Mr. Masen's customers owned Carcanos and the only ammo available would have been Italian SMI full metal jacket or WCC full metal jacket bullets. As FMJ bullets are universally banned from hunting (due to their resistance to expand in a wound), this meant these owners were restricted to target shooting with their Carcanos. Using a bullet puller, Mr. Masen would extract the FMJ bullet, and seat a soft point hunting bullet into the neck of the cartridge.

However, this presents an interesting problem, and the reason I wished to speak with Mr. Masen. WC supporters have long maintained the WCC cartridges were made exactly to Italian specs, including the bullets loaded into the cartridges being the required .268 inch diameter. As I have stated before, the Carcano, with its uniquely deep rifling grooves, had to shoot a bullet .268 inch in diameter in order to be accurate, while the vast majority of other 6.5mm rifles shot a bullet .264 inch in diameter.Therefore, if Mr. Masen pulled .268 inch FMJ bullets from the WCC cartridges, he would have had to replace them with .264 inch SP bullets, as there would not have been .268 inch SP bullets available in 1963.

Of course, the .264 inch bullets would have been a sloppy fit in a .268 inch neck. Was he required to resize the cartridge necks in a die? Or were the WCC cartridges loaded with .264 inch bullets, and no resizing was required?

Robert,

Maybe you could send him a letter asking these questions?

--Tommy

Hi Tommy

That is one of the methods I attempted. I sent Mr. Masen a very polite and cordial e-mail, care of The Gun Shop, assuring him I only had a couple of questions and that I would not become a nuisance but this failed, as well. Can't say that I blame him as, like many figures in this matter, he has probably had to endure his fair share of crazies.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mason is a curious figure. However, I think the real importance is that the FBI could not find any locations where Oswald purchased ammo. He didnt buy any when the rifle was purchased (my gun enthusiast friends say that almost never happens) and there were no fingerprints on the shells found in the TSBD.

Yes, it is unusual, considering Klein's had an excellent deal on surplus Italian SMI ammo which included the all important clip. That is another question I had for Mr. Masen. As the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo he was retailing did not come with the clip, did he sell these separately?

[Gary Murr]

Bob...

Thought you might find this interesting and maybe help us less informed about guns and ammo people if this means anything ...

Seems the only two places in the Dallas-Irving area to get 6.5mm MC ammo was one of 2 places including Masens Gun shop.

The report below states that the ammo provided by Masen matched the cartridges found on the 6th floor... yet they were loaded with soft point ammo, not FMJ ammo.

Any significance to this?

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11176&relPageId=4

The reason Mr. Masen had a box of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges loaded with soft point hunting bullets is very simple. Some of Mr. Masen's customers owned Carcanos and the only ammo available would have been Italian SMI full metal jacket or WCC full metal jacket bullets. As FMJ bullets are universally banned from hunting (due to their resistance to expand in a wound), this meant these owners were restricted to target shooting with their Carcanos. Using a bullet puller, Mr. Masen would extract the FMJ bullet, and seat a soft point hunting bullet into the neck of the cartridge.

However, this presents an interesting problem, and the reason I wished to speak with Mr. Masen. WC supporters have long maintained the WCC cartridges were made exactly to Italian specs, including the bullets loaded into the cartridges being the required .268 inch diameter. As I have stated before, the Carcano, with its uniquely deep rifling grooves, had to shoot a bullet .268 inch in diameter in order to be accurate, while the vast majority of other 6.5mm rifles shot a bullet .264 inch in diameter.Therefore, if Mr. Masen pulled .268 inch FMJ bullets from the WCC cartridges, he would have had to replace them with .264 inch SP bullets, as there would not have been .268 inch SP bullets available in 1963.

Of course, the .264 inch bullets would have been a sloppy fit in a .268 inch neck. Was he required to resize the cartridge necks in a die? Or were the WCC cartridges loaded with .264 inch bullets, and no resizing was required?

Hello Bob:

While I personally feel that the last thing in the world many fellow researchers would accuse me of being would be a "WC supporter," I can assure you that the 6.5mm MC bullets manufactured by the WCC were "made exactly to Italian specs" and are not .264 inches in diameter. On the other hand they also are not specifically and precisely .268 inches in diameter - but they are close, in truth less than one-one thousandth of an inch shy of .268 inches and there is a specific reason as to why. I might indicate to you that I own 60 rounds of the 6.5mm WCC MC ammunition and I have measured everyone of them with a digital micrometer and more than once. The average diameter of the bullets I possess is .2678 inches. The question becomes, therefore, which "Italian specs" did the WCC utilize in producing their version of the 6.5mm MC bullet? The answer to this question, and many more, will be in my forthcoming work, "Forgotten." Nonetheless and for the purposes of both this thread and historical accuracy as to the true diameter of the WCC ammunition in question, a brief preview is offered herein.

As you are well aware, 6.5mm carcano ammunition had been manufactured by Italian concerns since the 1890's. When the WCC entered into contract DA-23-196-ORD-27 to produce some 4 million rounds of 6.5mm MC ammunition they did so fully realizing that they had never produced, in their past, ammunition of this specific nature. They were initially supplied a series of "certified drawings" of Italian lineage from the OSAAC - the Ordnance Small Arms Ammunition Center - drawings which though detailed and accurate were not particularly legible, in areas, and contained written data that was [understandably] in Italian only. C. E. Becker, WCC employee and at the time of this contractual agreement the Head of the WCC Government Sales Department, wrote the St. Louis Ordnance District in an effort to obtain better/clearer copies of these same Italian drawings. He was informed that copies of the drawings he requested were not on file at the headquarters of the St. Louis Ordnance District and that the drawings already in the possession of the WCC, obtained from the OSAAC, "were made from the same original as those previously supplied you. Therefore, they will not be more legible." In total the WCC received 12 certified Italian drawings covering all aspects of not only the "bullet' component of 6.5mm MC ammunition but also drawings detailing specifics of the cartridge, test barrels, primers, forged carbon steel test barrels, etc. The specific bullet drawing that Western used to generate their 6.5mm MC bullet is drawing number E93b05/2 prepared under the auspices of the D.S.S.T.A.M., an acronym that stands for Direzione Superiore del Servizio Tecnico di Armi e Munizioni - Headquarters Arms and Munitions Technical Services. This bullet drawing had been constructed on April 4, 1940, by Italian ballistician G. B. Liarosini. This drawing is very specific and it clearly indicates that the finished "diameter" of this bullet is to be 6.8mm, which converts to 0.267717 inches. I have put the word "diameter" in quotations intentionally. As you know, a bullet's diameter is not uniform but rather shows a gradual increase in the "size" of the diameter beginning at the shank portion of the bullet where the ogive curvature ends. In the case of the 6.5mm MC bullet manufactured by the WCC the diameter increases exponentially beginning at 0.258 inches at the beginning of the shank in increments of roughly .002 inches up to the cylindrical "uniform" middle of the bullet where it becomes 0.267 inches.

I also was able to find documentation that supports what I originally stated in my first response in this thread regarding Masen pulling the WCC bullets and substituting SP "hunting" bullet. The FBI interviewed John Thomas Masen on March 26, 1964 at which time "he advised he used a Herter's Bullet Puller in changing these bullets." The bullets he did not "pull" he "sold...with a military load."[FBI 105-82555-3108, p. 10] And in answer to another question you posed elsewhere in this thread, as far as I have been able to ascertain, Masen never sold individual MC clips.

Gary

[David Josephs]

Mason is a curious figure. However, I think the real importance is that the FBI could not find any locations where Oswald purchased ammo. He didnt buy any when the rifle was purchased (my gun enthusiast friends say that almost never happens) and there were no fingerprints on the shells found in the TSBD.

You make a good and important point Lawrence...

Virtually everything the FBI tired to corroborate related to Oswald's guilt came up terribly short or in fact pointed in the opposite direction... (CIA placed the order for the 4 million rounds of MC ammo)

Same deal with Mexico - Lee Harvey Oswald, killed by Ruby, did not go to Mexico yet the FBI was charged with proving he did. So they created one story that had to be changed to yet another sotry which also came up short.

This runs rampant throughout... the Evidence (which as you'd know by now if you read anything of mine) IS the Conspiracy and good for little else but to illuminate it little by little.

DJ

(edit: Thanks Robert for you explanation)

Edited March 10, 2015 by David Josephs