William Kelly Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Evidence can be anything that convinces someone of a fact or the truth - and photo evidence does not reach the level of complete belief or satisfaction of beyond a reasonable doubt. Not just in this specific incident but in every case. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Bill Kelly, Your post #199 is important. In the law, evidence is that which has been admitted into evidence by a trial judge. The Rules of Evidence are rules of law. Proffered evidence is subject to cross-examination. There is no evidence in the JFK case. Only asserted facts and assertions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark Valenti Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 There is no evidence in the JFK case. Only asserted facts and assertions. What would you call items entered for the jury's consideration in the Clay Shaw trial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Hi Bill I'd agree with you that at the moment the photo of PM is not evidence of Oswald in the doorway. It needs to be further enhanced for it to be that conclusive. It is certainly not not Oswald ie not a woman or an African American and certainly has an appearance that is consistent with Oswald's hairline, clothing and height. But having said that, I don't believe that the PM thread rests solely or even primarily on the photo evidence. Sean Murphy's case is supported by statements, notes, other films, photos, affidavits and testimony. It's thoroughly substantiated. One of the most significant issues to me is the great silence around this PM figure. No-one saw him that day. Not one single witness mentions him. Yet he is clearly visible in the films to all walking back into the TSBD. None of the TSBD employees on the steps mentions him when he is standing within touching distance. That silence speaks volumes in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Hi Randy Both Joe Molina and Roy Lewis stated that they left the steps following the shooting so they would not have been visible in the photo above when the employees are returning to the building. Carl Jones gave an interview to the FBI which is 22H657 but I can't seem to find the actual text anywhere. Do you have access to his interview? PM and BWF stick out in this photo. Plenty of witnesses saw BWF so why not PM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Hi Randy I can't find anything specific in Molina and Lewis's statements about how long they lingered on the steps for. But they say they heard shots and then went to the Knoll because that is where everyone else was going. We can see in the photo that people are returning to the TSBD so I'm thinking that this would have to be after Molina and Lewis left the steps. I'm having trouble posting links at the moment but will try again tomorrow when I'm on a better computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina: "Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third. Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked.Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything?Mr. MOLINA. Yes.Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain 371 by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?Mr. MOLINA. Yes.Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly goMr. MOLINA. Yeah.Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?Mr. MOLINA. Yes.Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Thank you Bob! So 20 or 30 seconds after still gives them time to get off the steps before Darnell films them. Although it's pushing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 It is. I also find it very interesting that Molina was right at the door, on the top step, and saw Truly enter the TSBD, but did not see Baker in his white helmet. Neither did Frazier. Did Baker actually enter the TSBD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Robert, I have stabilized and slowed Robin's Darnell frames. http://www85.zippyshare.com/v/H04Vt5xz/file.html Watch Truly's "about face" right after Baker passes him. I was under the impression they did not know each other before this. I'm speculating of course. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Wow, thanks Chris. That is a very clear version - probably the clearest I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanessa Loney Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Hi Bob We can see in Chris's Darnell film Baker is in full flight heading towards the steps. Why would he suddenly divert from that and go elsewhere when he's right at the steps. I understand what you're saying about him not being mentioned by witnesses who really should have seen him. But the witness testimony around the steps seems to be full of silence on people they should have seen ie PM. What do you think could have happened to divert him from going up the steps when he's right at them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Know what drives me insane about that film, Chris? We see Baker get close to the bottom of the steps, but we don't actually see Baker run up the steps. Darnell pans away from the steps of the TSBD before this happens. Coincidentally, precisely the same thing occurs in the Malcolm Couch film. As we can see from Molina's testimony, he was right in the entrance, on the top step, with the door behind him, when Truly entered the TSBD front door; supposedly in the company of Officer Baker. Molina does not see Baker, neither does Frazier, in fact, I deny anyone to find a single witness on the steps who saw Baker. Why would the witnesses lie about seeing Baker, if they saw him run up the steps? Wouldn't it be to the conspirators benefit to have witnesses corroborating Baker's story about his rapid entrance into the TSBD, as his encounter with Oswald on the 2nd floor is the only thing placing Oswald above the main floor? It makes no sense. Vanessa, who knows what might have diverted him? Could he have seen something on Houston St.? Did he believe the only way to the roof of the TSBD might be from the back of the building which, incidentally, is precisely where the stairs and elevators are? We have two films that show Baker ALMOST making it to the stairs, just before the camera operator pans away from Baker and loses him. I'm getting just a little tired of all of the coincidences in this murder case, and I refuse to keep relying on assumption, such as assuming Baker ascends the steps, simply because that is what he states in his testimony. Edited April 1, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Robert, I was insinuating that Truly's action as Baker passes by, is in itself, a little strange. Your point is valid. We do not see Baker actually enter the TSBD via the front entrance. Nor would I make that assumption. The Molina testimony you posted might be approached a little differently. I will explain tomorrow. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) I see what you mean, Chris, although if I were the manager, I might spin on my heels the same way if a cop went running into the building I managed. There is a lady running toward the steps who gets there just after Baker (another assumption). Does anyone know who this is? Edited April 1, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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