Was it Lansdale?

[Ron Ecker]

I think if Hunt was captured in a photo that day, this is him:

I agree, it's more likely than the tramp. A spook trying to look like a spook!

The year I saw him in Miami was around 1980, give or take a year.

[Ron Ecker]

Brian and Larry,

In his book Undercover (p. 153), Hunt states that while working for the White House he interviewed Lansdale, at the request of Charles Colson, about events leading up to the assassination of Diem. It is not discernible from this particular passage whether Hunt and Lansdale were old acquaintances or had never met before. On page 151, Hunt states that Lansdale was "a brilliant but erratic CIA station chief in Saigon."

.

[Brian Schmidt]

That is very interesting. "Brilliant but erratic." Hah.

Thanks, Ron.

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks Brian, appreciated and anything further you find would be great. I've spend a lot of time trying to fill in exactly what Hunt was doing in 62 and 63 and have my own ideas but actual data is slim. About all I can say is that Hunt was almost always a political action type and not operational in the sense of the field or paramilitary side of the agency....even in Guatemala. His early performance in MC is a good example of how he routinely alienated folks other than the ones he personally liked and things didn't get a whole lot better later on....on the other hand the man talked a heck of a game and played the novel type spy role to a T.

Dear Larry,

Wasn't he chief of station in Montevideo, Uruguay, at some point?

That was probably much earlier, though.

--Tommy

PS I wonder if one of his pseudos was "Lawrence R. Charron".

Edited April 17, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

And yet again Mr. V you fail to understand the evidence related to this event.

It's truly sad how some will cling so tightly to an opinion in the face of the evidence to the contrary.

Believe whatever you like but please don't be surprised when the Easter Bunny, Bigfoot and Santa also turn out not to be real And also were not in those photos from Dealey Plaza.

Oh, and JFK's brain weighed 1500 grams after Oswald shot him from the 6th Floor.

Brilliant.

Being honest here, no ill will intended. I really believe you have the kind of thinking process that actively looks for complicated, and unnecessary, solutions to the most basic questions. I don't believe it's possible to convince you you're wrong, or even to encourage you to consider alternatives. You have a world view and it creates bias in your research, imo. Of course there are far too many off-kilter elements to this case than any one person can name. But I think certain kinds of thinkers take it one or a hundred steps too far and create untenable theories they cannot be persuaded away from. You are in step with Cinque, Fetzer and Baker; I can't go there.

PS: David, there's nothing in that previous post of mine that you can logically refute. Unless you claim that the documents have been altered.

Mark -

No ill will in the least... If you'd allow me... you sound like Bugliosi trying to convince us that this simple little matter need not be as complicated as Conspiracy Theorists insist.

I did not go looking for two sets of tramps... I went and acquired all the evidence I could find that was offered about these men and looked to see what it told me.

Billy Bass's statement to the HSCA recounts how Officer Vaughn was intimately involved in the finding and "arresting" of the men on the train. (Image below)

Vaughn is a DPD officer, not a sheriff. Vaughn's reports only deal with the killing of Oswald. Vaughn's WC testimony only deals with the killing of Oswald.

He is not asked a single question about what we read in Bass' report.

Billy Bass was not called to testify nor are there any reports citing him as author in the DPD documents database.

There are no reports at all using the term "Train" or "Tramps" related to the railroad yard and the ONLY reports in DPD files are those signed by CHAMBERS

Link BOX FOLDER ITEM DOC_TYPE DOC_DATE PRIMAUTH QUALITY ABSTRACT 02 01 015 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Original Signed Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination 02 01 016 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Carbon Copy Signed Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination 03 20 002 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 C. M. Barnhart Carbon Copy Annotated Arrest report concerning a man walking on the railroad tracks 03 20 005 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 W. E. Chambers Carbon Copy Signed Arrest report concerning a man removed from a railroad box car 03 20 006 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 W. E. Chambers Carbon Copy Signed Arrest report concerning a man removed from a railroad box car 03 20 007 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 W. E. Chambers Carbon Copy Signed Arrest report concerning a man removed from a railroad box car 05 02 009 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Photocopy Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination 15 01 009 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Photocopy Poor Quality Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination

CHAMBERS is a Dallas Policeman, not a Sheriff under Decker.

MIDDLETON, named by WISE, was not involved as his interview report states at the very bottom of this post.

The interviews of Abrahms, Gedney and Doyle all confirm the information on the CHAMBERS arrest sheets - that they were in jail at the CITY JAIL where Oswald was kept and that they were released on the 26th. There is no evidence related to these three arrest reports that connects these mento the three men WISE, BASS, VAUGHN or DECKER were involved with at the SHERIFF's office.

Abrahms, Gedney and Doyle were not fingerprinted or photographed in the process of their incarceration.

Wise tells the FBI that a deputy sheriff tells him that the three men were released in an unusual way, thru the Main entrance as he did not see them leave

Mark - this is the best that I can do. If you cannot see the rampant duplicity that exists within the evidence, one set to incriminate, one set of what really happened which fades into history (from rifles, to shell casings, to wallets, to locations of arrest, to means of travel.... and in most every area of the case one cares to look closely... I am truly sorry.

If 1, 2 or all 3 of these men pictured was involved with what happened to JFK... and Decker was one of the key players in making sure the real perps were never caught (which I believe he was) the notion that he let them go from the Sheriff's office while records are later found in the DPD archives related to the three men named (although completely contrary to SOP yet accepted as genuine) I cannot then find a way to adquately express what I found by cross checking the stories and presenting the reality of the situation as I DISCOVERED it...

Again... I was not looking for this... the Evidence SCREAMS it - if one was to drop the filters of "too complicated" "why would it" & "makes no sense" and embrace the CONSPIRACY with an open mind and the understanding that we have no flippin idea the number of minute details involved from the POV of the planners of such an event - I think you will find, as I have been saying all along,

that the Evidence IS the Conspiracy and simply not indicative of any of the real events which took place.

DJ

Edited April 17, 2015 by David Josephs

[Guest Mark Valenti]

This is a timeline as best as I can assemble it for now. Take into consideration that the Sheriff's department created dummy sheets and had the infamous "Hold for Decker" prisoners, which will go a long way toward explaining the anomalies you pointed out.

1. Doyle and Abrams (whom Doyle had met in Los Angeles) and Gedney (whom Doyle had met in Amarillo, Texas), arrived in Dallas on a train in the morning hours. The day before they had been in Houston.
2. They went to the Irving Street Mission where they showered, and received a noon meal.
3. Officer Harkness saw JFK get shot. He drove his motorcycle around the area looking for any individual who might be trying to escape. He came upon Amos Euins who claimed to witness the shooting. Harkness gave Euins a ride to the front of the TSBD.
4. Inspector Sawyer told Harkness to head to the rail yard.
5. Shortly after the tramps left the mission, someone told them that JFK had been shot.
6. They hopped the train for Fort Worth but the train was stopped.
7. Officer Wise received a Robbery in Progress call at Lamar and Cockrell when he heard a radio call sending all cars to Elm and Houston. He arrived and parked near the railroad tracks, approximately five car lengths from the front door. He was assigned to the west side of the TSBD.
8. Officer Bass was on patrol when he was ordered to Elm and Houston. He grabbed his shotgun as he exited his squad car.
9. Officer Chambers was at the Trade Mart when he heard the report of JFK being shot. He, along with Captain Jones and Officers Grinell and Wagner, returned to the Sheriff’s department.
10. Wise was told by a sergeant to get his rifle from his squad car.
11. A railroad employee started waving at him. Wise went to the control tower. The employee told him that three men got into a boxcar about four or five hundred yards down the track. An individual driving a locomotive engine along an adjacent track pointed out the boxcar.
12. Wise, Bill Bass, Roy Vaughn, Dave Harkness and Bill Middleton (Middleton claims that he did not work on that day) went to the coal boxcars and found the tramps. Wise stated that the men acted scared, and he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. Wise later stated that the tramps were dirty and smelly. Bass observed that the men had hobo type clothing on but from the neck up they were clean shaven and had good haircuts.
13. Pointing their shotguns at the three, Wise and Vaughn ordered them to exit the boxcar.
14. One of the tramps cursed at the officers. Vaughn jacked a shell into the chamber of his weapon and ordered them out.
15. The tramps were searched. One tramp had a paper bag containing soap, a shirt, a towel, a can of Spam and a jackknife. The knife was confiscated by Wise.
16. Vaughn caught a ride back to the control tower on the locomotive engine. Wise and the other three officers walked the tramps away from the tracks.
17. Wise spotted three Dallas police Inspectors in front of the TSBD. He asked them what to do with the tramps.
18. The Inspectors told Wise to take them to the Sheriff’s office.
19. Harkness also maintains that he made the decision to take the tramps to the Sheriff’s office because it was so close to where they were.
20. Bass went back to the TSBD where he remained until 5 pm.
21. Wise took the men to the Sheriff’s office. Once there, he asked the tramps for ID.
22. Wise confirmed that the tramps’ names were Doyle, Gedney and Abrams.
23. He wrote the ID down on a piece of paper which he placed in his hat. He later placed the paper in his locker and later, in 1966, threw it away because the tramps arrest was of no apparent importance in the Warren Commission investigation.
24. Wise turned the men over to the Sheriff’s office. One of the Sheriff’s deputies took the three tramps into Sheriff Decker’s office. Wise was told to wait outside the Sheriff’s office.
25. Officer Chambers helped interrogate Gedney, Abrams and Doyle. Chambers described them as dirty, and that they were not wearing socks.
26. Chambers stated that the tramps gave confusing and conflicting answers to his questions.
27. Chambers stated that the tramps claimed to be sleeping on a freight car when a uniformed officer questioned them. The officer told them they’d better leave town. So the three boarded a coal boxcar, and they were stopped for a second time by Dallas police.
28. Sheriff Decker spoke to the tramps, along with some of his deputies. Their conversation lasted about five minutes.
29. Captain Jones came into the office and notified the others that Oswald had been arrested for murdering Tippit and that he had also killed JFK.
30. Wise was then told to take Doyle, Gedney and Abrams to Captain Fritz’s office.
31. By himself, Wise took Doyle, Gedney and Abrams - in his squad car - to Captain Fritz’s office. Two of the tramps were in the back seat, handcuffed together. The third tramp sat in the front seat uncuffed.
32. By the time Wise reached Fritz’s office, he felt “ashamed and guilty” that he had been asked to bring three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. He was convinced that the three tramps had nothing to do with the murder of JFK.
33. Wise took the tramps inside Dallas Police headquarters. He told several officers about the tramps and about the knife he confiscated from Abrams.
34. Someone told Doyle that he was lucky because he got to see “the man who killed Kennedy” at the station.
35. Wise gave up custody of the tramps and was in the office for 30 minutes to an hour.
36. Wise speculated that Officer Chambers interrogated the three tramps at Dallas PD.
37. The three tramps were returned to Wise’s custody and he was told by a senior Homicide officer to take them back to Sheriff Decker’s office.
38. The three tramps were returned to Sheriff Decker’s office without having been booked into the Dallas City Jail.
39. Wise felt as if he had wasted the entire day with the three tramps.
40. The three tramps were again escorted into Sheriff Decker’s office. Sheriff Decker did not speak to the tramps at this time.
41. The tramps were then escorted outside of Wise’s presence and he did not see them again.

• Gedney later claimed that the police walked them to eat for every meal and that the tramps observed Lee Oswald in a separate double cell every time they walked for a meal. He said that they saw Oswald every day until he was shot by Jack Ruby.

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

• Gedney later claimed that the police walked them to eat for every meal and that the tramps observed Lee Oswald in a separate double cell every time they walked for a meal. He said that they saw Oswald every day until he was shot by Jack Ruby

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Mark,

Thanks for the timeline. Great work so far.

But... Is there a "typo"?

Edit: Never mind -- I understand.

Interesting point actually.

--Tommy

Edited April 17, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

34. By the time Wise reached Fritz’s office, he felt “ashamed and guilty” that he had been asked to bring three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. He was convinced that the three tramps had nothing to do with the murder of JFK.

38. The three tramps were returned to Sheriff Decker’s office without having been booked into the Dallas City Jail.

39. Wise felt as if he had wasted the entire day with the three tramps.

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Please explain the significance of Wise not seeing something happen.

[Paul Trejo]

This is a timeline as best as I can assemble it for now. Take into consideration that the Sheriff's department created dummy sheets and had the infamous "Hold for Decker" prisoners, which will go a long way toward explaining the anomalies you pointed out.

1. Doyle and Abrams (whom Doyle had met in Los Angeles) and Gedney (whom Doyle had met in Amarillo, Texas), arrived in Dallas on a train in the morning hours. The day before they had been in Houston.
2. They went to the Irving Street Mission where they showered, and received a noon meal.
3. Officer Harkness saw JFK get shot. He drove his motorcycle around the area looking for any individual who might be trying to escape. He came upon Amos Euins who claimed to witness the shooting. Harkness gave Euins a ride to the front of the TSBD.
4. Inspector Sawyer told Harkness to head to the rail yard.
5. Shortly after the tramps left the mission, someone told them that JFK had been shot.
6. They hopped the train for Fort Worth but the train was stopped.
7. Officer Wise received a Robbery in Progress call at Lamar and Cockrell when he heard a radio call sending all cars to Elm and Houston. He arrived and parked near the railroad tracks, approximately five car lengths from the front door. He was assigned to the west side of the TSBD.
8. Officer Bass was on patrol when he was ordered to Elm and Houston. He grabbed his shotgun as he exited his squad car.
9. Officer Chambers was at the Trade Mart when he heard the report of JFK being shot. He, along with Captain Jones and Officers Grinell and Wagner, returned to the Sheriff’s department.
10. Wise was told by a sergeant to get his rifle from his squad car.
11. A railroad employee started waving at him. Wise went to the control tower. The employee told him that three men got into a boxcar about four or five hundred yards down the track. An individual driving a locomotive engine along an adjacent track pointed out the boxcar.
12. Wise, Bill Bass, Roy Vaughn, Dave Harkness and Bill Middleton (Middleton claims that he did not work on that day) went to the coal boxcars and found the tramps. Wise stated that the men acted scared, and he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. Wise later stated that the tramps were dirty and smelly. Bass observed that the men had hobo type clothing on but from the neck up they were clean shaven and had good haircuts.
13. Pointing their shotguns at the three, Wise and Vaughn ordered them to exit the boxcar.
14. One of the tramps cursed at the officers. Vaughn jacked a shell into the chamber of his weapon and ordered them out.
15. The tramps were searched. One tramp had a paper bag containing soap, a shirt, a towel, a can of Spam and a jackknife. The knife was confiscated by Wise.
16. Vaughn caught a ride back to the control tower on the locomotive engine. Wise and the other three officers walked the tramps away from the tracks.
17. Wise spotted three Dallas police Inspectors in front of the TSBD. He asked them what to do with the tramps.
18. The Inspectors told Wise to take them to the Sheriff’s office.
19. Harkness also maintains that he made the decision to take the tramps to the Sheriff’s office because it was so close to where they were.
20. Bass went back to the TSBD where he remained until 5 pm.
21. Wise took the men to the Sheriff’s office. Once there, he asked the tramps for ID.
22. Wise confirmed that the tramps’ names were Doyle, Gedney and Abrams.
23. He wrote the ID down on a piece of paper which he placed in his hat. He later placed the paper in his locker and later, in 1966, threw it away because the tramps arrest was of no apparent importance in the Warren Commission investigation.
24. Wise turned the men over to the Sheriff’s office. One of the Sheriff’s deputies took the three tramps into Sheriff Decker’s office. Wise was told to wait outside the Sheriff’s office.
25. Officer Chambers helped interrogate Gedney, Abrams and Doyle. Chambers described them as dirty, and that they were not wearing socks.
26. Chambers stated that the tramps gave confusing and conflicting answers to his questions.
27. Chambers stated that the tramps claimed to be sleeping on a freight car when a uniformed officer questioned them. The officer told them they’d better leave town. So the three boarded a coal boxcar, and they were stopped for a second time by Dallas police.
28. Sheriff Decker spoke to the tramps, along with some of his deputies. Their conversation lasted about five minutes.
29. Captain Jones came into the office and notified the others that Oswald had been arrested for murdering Tippit and that he had also killed JFK.
30. Wise was then told to take Doyle, Gedney and Abrams to Captain Fritz’s office.
31. By himself, Wise took Doyle, Gedney and Abrams - in his squad car - to Captain Fritz’s office. Two of the tramps were in the back seat, handcuffed together. The third tramp sat in the front seat uncuffed.
32. By the time Wise reached Fritz’s office, he felt “ashamed and guilty” that he had been asked to bring three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. He was convinced that the three tramps had nothing to do with the murder of JFK.
33. Wise took the tramps inside Dallas Police headquarters. He told several officers about the tramps and about the knife he confiscated from Abrams.
34. Someone told Doyle that he was lucky because he got to see “the man who killed Kennedy” at the station.
35. Wise gave up custody of the tramps and was in the office for 30 minutes to an hour.
36. Wise speculated that Officer Chambers interrogated the three tramps at Dallas PD.
37. The three tramps were returned to Wise’s custody and he was told by a senior Homicide officer to take them back to Sheriff Decker’s office.
38. The three tramps were returned to Sheriff Decker’s office without having been booked into the Dallas City Jail.
39. Wise felt as if he had wasted the entire day with the three tramps.
40. The three tramps were again escorted into Sheriff Decker’s office. Sheriff Decker did not speak to the tramps at this time.
41. The tramps were then escorted outside of Wise’s presence and he did not see them again.

• Gedney later claimed that the police walked them to eat for every meal and that the tramps observed Lee Oswald in a separate double cell every time they walked for a meal. He said that they saw Oswald every day until he was shot by Jack Ruby.

Well, Mark, I read your timeline twice and I must admit I was impressed. It does make sense -- it is possible that all this bizarre shuffling of the three tramps between the DPD and the Sheriff's office really happened -- they really were released, and they really were rounded up again in a dragnet.

I admitted before that Dallas was in chaos, especially the DPD and the Sheriff's offices.

So, perhaps all the weirdness in the expected DPD protocol in those DPD reports can be explained rationally after all.

So, I'm moving closer to Larry Hancock's position again -- even if that is General Lansdale walking alongside those three tramps, there is probably a benign reason for his presence in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/1963.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

Please explain the significance of Wise not seeing something happen.

Your #34 is incorrect Mark... which is now #32. Wise brings the men to DECKER not FRITZ when he starts to feel "ashamed and guilty"

The last WISE knows these men are with Decker and then released while at 4pm according to CHAMBERS arrest reports, these three men are being booked - half-assed as it may be...

There is no physical evidence which connects the men in the DP photos to the men on CHAMBERS' arrest reports.

1. 32. By the time Wise reached Fritz’s office, he felt “ashamed and guilty” that he had been asked to bring three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. He was convinced that the three tramps had nothing to do with the murder of JFK.
3. 38. The three tramps were returned to Sheriff Decker’s office without having been booked into the Dallas City Jail.
4. and then all you say is that the tramps were escorted outside of Wise's presence...

What happened to the part of the report that states:

"WISE was told by a deputy that the three had been released"

DECKER's COUNTY jail and the DPD CITY Jail are not the same thing Mark.

The information on the shooting of Tippit occurs WHEN? 40 minutes (or so) after the assassination so about 1:15pm

When they get to the DPD and CHAMBERS is assigned these hobos just after this info is heard, the timing appears to be BEFORE the DP tramp photos are even taken...

Neither Jones or Grinell write a report related to these men being detained let alone arrest reports written & signed by CHAMBERS.

CHAMBERS does not even confirm this yet they are found, incomplete as they are, in the DPD archives years later... hmmmm.

JONES comes in to tell CHAMBERS they arrested a suspect - WHEN does that occur Mark? BEFORE 2pm if I remember correctly. In fact isn't Oswald back at the DPD before 2:30?

1:53 15 (Capt. C.E. Talbert) Do you have the suspect arrested in the TexasTheater?

1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Yes, sir. Him and his gun.

CHAMBERS says he is then told to let them go.

Didn't we conclude the DP photos are taken after 2:30?

In 1966, a JFK assassination researcher, Richard E. Sprague, came across seven unpublished newspaper photographs that had been taken in Dealey Plaza between 2:20 and 2:30pm on 22 November 1963. http://22november1963.org.uk/three-tramps-in-dealey-plaza

Can you help me understand this conflict?

Edited April 18, 2015 by David Josephs

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Your #34 is incorrect Mark... which is now #32. Wise brings the men to DECKER not FRITZ when he starts to feel "ashamed and guilty"

Nope.

[David Josephs]

Well done Mark... my mistake..

Now what about all the rest of the post...? When CHAMBERS arrives at DPD and starts working with the hobos he is informed by JONES that Oswald has been caught and they are FREE TO GO...

He never sees them again...

Yet his name is on their arrest reports

The three all claim to have been there until the 26th then released

How can they be going back and forth and back to Decker while CHAMBERS is with them between the time Tippit is killed and Oswald is caught...

when the photos of the men are taken between 2:20 and 2:30?

Edited April 18, 2015 by David Josephs

[Guest Mark Valenti]

We don't know what time Jones comes in to tell Chambers that a suspect has been arrested. But it would have to be 3 pm or later, because the tramps weren't arrested until 2:20 to 2:30.

Chronology:

* Radio call about LHO being arrested at the Texas Theater

* Tramps are arrested

* Tramps are brought to Decker's office. Chambers questions them

* Oswald is transported to Fritz's office

* Tramps are brought to Fritz's office

* Tramps see Oswald in Fritz's office

* Tramps are brought back to Decker's office. Chambers writes arrest report.

You say: When they get to the DPD and CHAMBERS is assigned these hobos just after this info is heard, the timing appears to be BEFORE the DP tramp photos are even taken...

This is not true. You are linking the two bits of information unfairly.

Check out the information about the "Hold For Decker" methodology at the Sheriff's department.

Check out the "dummy reports" they made up.

Everything is explained. It's all logical. There are no time gaps. There are no unexplained switcheroos.

[David Josephs]

I'll take a closer look yet I think you are mistaken about your timeline...

Do you believe that three men were arrested and stayed in jail until the 26th or are the CHAMBERS reports created after the fact to hide who these men really were...

If more than three men were removed from the train, per Harkness, what happened to them?

Why does WISE's account include lies about Middleton and not a single followup report from VAUGHN or BASS... nor, with photos now available after 1966, were these men ever asked about them?

Just curious what you think...