Jump to content
The Education Forum

Was it Lansdale?


Guest Mark Valenti
 Share

Recommended Posts

Guest Mark Valenti

Do you believe that General Victor "Brute" Krulak, former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps and member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, would identify the subject--in no uncertain terms--as Lansdale if he didn't feel certain about it? Seriously?

I don't have an opinion about Krulak's opinion.

I DO have an opinion about Prouty's claim that he didn't prompt Krulak whatsoever. He clearly did, so that part of his claim is untrue.

Note that in Prouty's letter of reply the name of E Howard Hunt comes up as Prouty mentions in passing: "Many have said one of the tramps was Howard Hunt. It looks like him." -- Yet even though Prouty was very familiar with Howard Hunt, and Hunt was a known CIA Operative, and the photo shows this "tramp's" full face -- Prouty's only, rather non-committal, comment is that "It looks like him." He doesn't say, "It's him." After all, a lot of people "look like" a lot of other people.

Didn't Prouty also suggest that Conein was also in Dealey Plaza that day?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 323
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

These are great documents, Greg - Thanks for posting them. The May 26 letter back to Krulack has a lot of intriguing information and I have never seen it before.
It's interesting that he mentions the "Hunt as a tramp" topic. I know he worked closely with EHH for a time, and I have heard him mention Hunt in relation to many things in interviews, but never heard him say whenever he thought Hunt may have been involved...I'll infer from the letter that he thinks EHH would have the character to be part of the plot.
Another interesting thing is his mention of Lansdale's relationship with Nixon, which I had known about, but is worthy of more investigation. I think it's taken as a given for some researchers that Lansdale was strictly opposed to the overthrow/assassination of Diem, but I don't know if it's as cut-and-dry as that. Prouty alludes to this. It's even more curious given his close association with Conein, who was working in Vietnam under supervision of Nixon's running mate, HCL....and who's Hunt's first choice for CIA man in the plumbers? Conein. (Also, strangely, in Nixon's last phone conversation with Ehrlichman, he strongly denies ever knowing of Hunt prior to Colson hiring him - which is of course a lie - but specifically mentions knowing about Conein.)
Finally, I'd like to find out more about who his friends were in the CIA and who hated him (as Prouty mentions, "During this extended period of long association I learned that EGL was either liked or violently disliked. He was a great behind-the-scene, solo operator. He traveled quite a bit. My CIA friends used to tell me about how many CIA men, and especially French Intelligence men, would gladly have shot him). Definitely some points worthy of further research.

You're welcome, Brian. We must have cross posted there. Funny that you raised the reference to Howard Hunt at the same time I was also raising the reference, but for a different reason. Prouty is not certain--and neither is Krulak or he would have mentioned it--that the tramp is Hunt.

I think it is important to note that Krulak says (regarding Lansdale's presence): "What in the world was he doing there?"

Some have been critical of Krulak for asking that question. As if to say: Duh? I disagree. It was Krulak's spontaneous reaction to an outrageous circumstance. What kind of "coincidence" could possibly be responsible for such a presence? NONE. -- But Krulak's comment is vitally important for a different reason, too. When taken literally it means more than one thing.

The first: Krulak's response indicates his absolute belief that it is, in fact, Lansdale in the Plaza. For without Krulak's ABSOLUTE conviction that Lansdale is present in the photo, Krulak would never have raised the question as to the "Why was Lansdale there?" in the first place. The latter pre-supposes the former else it lacks logical context.

Second: I used the word "why" [above] but his literal question was: "What [in the world] was he doing there?" -- Where the phrase "in the world" was employed for affect, the remainder is the heart of the question. IOW: "What was he doing there?" The implication being, "Lansdale was doing something there, but what was it?" Victor Krulak and Fletcher Prouty both would recognize the egregious breach in Trade Craft that such a presence would represent if Lansdale was aware of the assassination before the fact.

I once asked Fletch: "Is it possible that Lansdale was unwittingly lured there?" Prouty: "Unlikely. But a very interesting consideration."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you believe that General Victor "Brute" Krulak, former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps and member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, would identify the subject--in no uncertain terms--as Lansdale if he didn't feel certain about it? Seriously?

I don't have an opinion about Krulak's opinion.

I DO have an opinion about Prouty's claim that he didn't prompt Krulak whatsoever. He clearly did, so that part of his claim is untrue.

Note that in Prouty's letter of reply the name of E Howard Hunt comes up as Prouty mentions in passing: "Many have said one of the tramps was Howard Hunt. It looks like him." -- Yet even though Prouty was very familiar with Howard Hunt, and Hunt was a known CIA Operative, and the photo shows this "tramp's" full face -- Prouty's only, rather non-committal, comment is that "It looks like him." He doesn't say, "It's him." After all, a lot of people "look like" a lot of other people.

Didn't Prouty also suggest that Conein was also in Dealey Plaza that day?

I didn't ask for your "opinion of Krulak's opinion."

I asked if you really believe that Krulak would make the statement if he wasn't certain? Even Gerry Hemming, who had originally adamantly denied it was Lansdale, accepted it as a result of Krulak's certainty. Gerry knew Krulak well enough to know he would not make statements like that on a whim.

You keep bringing this back to Prouty. Why? I thought the subject of this thread that you started is: "Was it Lansdale?"

The topic isn't "Is Prouty honest?"

So I ask again, upon what basis do you reject General Victor Krulak's positive identification of Ed Lansdale in the photo?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Burnham, on 31 Mar 2015 - 2:18 PM, said:snapback.png

The only persons who have consistently claimed that Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty was a nut are John McAdams and Gary Mack. This thread, as I suspected, was a hit piece against Fletcher Prouty from the start. Some took the bait. I took the hook, line, rod, reel, boat, trailer, and trailer hitch. Your theory don't float.

Mr. Valenti: Ridiculous, and you are clearly impacted by your personal feelings toward Prouty. I haven't said one thing that isn't true. This is what's in the record. You may dispute it, that's your right and given your relationship, your duty.

But for crying out loud, don't be paranoid about motives you know nothing about. If you go into these discussions with a chip on your shoulder, you'll only see things through a very narrow lens. If you ascribe attributes to me (or anyone you disagree with) based on your sour feelings toward others, you may never come to any new conclusions.

It's what causes people to start their own forums and kick out people who disagree with their world view."


Kathleen Collins: Mr. Valenti, you hit the nail right on its head.

Greg Burnham: "Former VP Nixon, despite his uncertain stories about his whereabouts to the contrary, was still in Dallas that afternoon where he had been with a meeting of Pepsi Cola officials."

Mr. Valenti: This is not true:

Kathy Collins: Thanks. Nixon left Dallas-Fort Worth during Kennedy's motorcade. He is pictured, sitting in a chair at an airport, either Fort Worth-Dallas or NYC crying. I'm sure he had a couple of drinks. Nixon liked Kennedy, but if he ever told about what was going to happen to Kennedy, he would have been killed himself or a member of his family would have been targeted."

Kathy C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Mark Valenti

I didn't ask for your "opinion of Krulak's opinion." I asked if you really believe that Krulak would make the statement if he wasn't certain?

Who knows? There are lots of reasons someone might say a thing, especially people who are used to following orders.

Even Gerry Hemming, who had originally adamantly denied it was Lansdale, accepted it as a result of Krulak's certainty. Gerry knew Krulak well enough to know he would not make statements like that on a whim.

I don't know about pinning any dubious claim on Hemming. Do you feel that Hemming was always truthful with you? If not, why do you choose to believe him in this instance?

You keep bringing this back to Prouty. Why? I thought the subject of this thread that you started is: "Was it Lansdale?"

The topic isn't "Is Prouty honest?"

Any subject concerning Landsale's presence in DP HAS to focus on Prouty to some degree, don't you think? It was his words that opened up the whole magilla. And along with digging into the truth comes digging into Prouty's characterization of the matter. Why does this trouble you so? Can no one doubt the word of Prouty or any of your other friends? Or is he a sacrosanct untouchable whose word can never be questioned? Maybe you should post a list on your forum of people who can Never Be Challenged.

So I ask again, upon what basis do you reject General Victor Krulak's positive identification of Ed Lansdale in the photo?

Why do you keep asking that? I NEVER SAID what you are saying I said. Once you realize this, you may find yourself without a reason to keep posting in this thread.

Here's what you said on March 28: "Prouty did not ask Krulak if he thought the man pictured was Lansdale. Prouty simply provided him with the photograph."

BUT! Here's you today: "However, even if Colonel Prouty had included the name when he asked that question, Krulak was very certain the man pictured is Lansdale."

The difference matters.

From Lansdale's letter to Prouty: "I was in the Pentagon at the time of the tragedy but I have no recollection of where Lansdale was." OBVIOUSLY he mentions Lansdale because Prouty brought him up first.

But in a taped interview, Prouty says, "I started mailing the pictures to acquaintances of mine and acquaintances of Lansdale who knew him, WITHOUT ANY OF MY THOUGHTS. I SIMPLY WOULD SEND THE PICTURE, say "can you tell me what this looks like to you."

This does not seem to be true. Krulak was clearly responding to Prouty's mention of Lansdale.

So Krulak may have indeed come up with the ID on his own, but we'll never know, because that's not how it went down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Consolidating posts

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Knowledge comes from facts. In the JFK/Dallas matter we dont have all the facts. Certain records have been suppressed/removed from the record. One experience in a non-JFK matter was that I found an article linking the private company Obama worked for after college, to Russia's economic shock therapy. That article is gone clean from the net. Bill Kelly found a whistle blower say there were 8 feet of ONI records regarding Oswald (said records per ONI ,"NEVER EXISTED"). It appears that a number of Division Five FBI documents were 'deep sixed'-suppressed. John Judge said in public and private,"The CIA has 30-40 years to rewrite their internal memos. We know that they (CIA) have faked a number of them."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Even the people who were so called inside players in the intelligence side did not have all the knowledge/facts.

=

James Jesus Angleton (JJA) investigated Averell Harriman believing he might be a communist agent (even before Golitsin suggested that W. Averell Harriman had been a Soviet spy) twice. (for emphasis ,once in the 1950s and once in the 1960s). JJA didn't know Harriman was of the group that the CIA was created for and used.

=

Alan H. Belmont left as Head Division 5 FBI for the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace think tank. Belmont was introduced to the materials of Anthony Sutton's and started studying Skull And Bones. Belmont didn't understand a number of elite connections that moved matters in the USA and the world.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Lansdale visited 3 special forces bases in the summer of 1963. The hierarchy of the CIA would use the best shooters available. Shooters
from the special forces would be about the best. Most would refuse such a task but psychological/political expert Lansdale would be the perfect person to select those who would agree to the dirty deed.

I do believe there was also an Army shooting team (at the Trade Mart) & (Army monitors also in DP) and a team that were tricked into "thinking'" they were part of a real shooting team (were spotters attached to nonexistant shooters off DP) connected to Walker. For completion there may have been a Cancellare truck bomb. I suspect that a number of the JFK shooters never left the Dallas area and were buried in property owned by the Buckley family. David Ferrie could have contact with Director of Plans Helms (((for Ferrie had the CIA exchange for Helm's 2nd in command > (how high the phone number in the CIA reached , Ferrie probably didn't know))))

Financed by Japanese stolen gold and the power to help to appoint,Dulles had a private "CIA" of his own that in part consisted of : Casey,Taylor, Lansdale,Paines,Gatlin,De Mohrenschildt and

the head lawyers of the

Treasury Department from the 50s to past the assassination : Fred C. Scribner ,David A. Lindsay and Gaspard d'Andelot Belin (all General Counsel for the Department of the Treasury. ) I have posted before of the Dulles connections to Scribner and Belin and below (post # 57) I give some of my Lindsay research. If there are problems with the Secret Service ,you don't have to look farther than Dulles

.Mary Bancroft was the mistress of Allen Dulles from WWII and during the JFK era. Mary Bancrofts childhood friend was Ruth Paine. Per Prouty Dulles help promote Lansdale in the military. Maybe Lansdale visited the 3 special forces bases in 1963 for his health.

It has been said that it would be poor intelligence craft protocol to be in DP. This is true , however, Dulles visited LBJ at his ranch before Elm St ....... winners write history and control investigations... Could that many people recognize Lansdale ? What would the DPD stop him for, good suit and high forehead ?? SG

 

Edited by Steven Gaal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Mark Valenti

Could that many people recognize Lansdale ? What would the DPD stop him for, good suit and high forehead ?? SG

What would he be doing in DP two full hours after the assassination? Picking up spent shells?

And don't forget, Prouty thought Conein was in DP that day too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What would he be doing in DP two full hours after the assassination? Picking up spent shells? // Valenti

===============================================================================

Has the time been really set as to the when of the photo ?? Isnt OZ in custody and thus just things move along ??

Have no idea why he would come back but he was in no danger.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

At a Dallas conference ,in a private talk, a retired DPD detective told me the army that night had men with metal detectors all over DP.

Army found a lot of spent shells,the detective said , a number of just released men would from their cars shoot back at the jail and speed away !!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry I don't remember his name. He also said the Balcony of the theater had a piece of plywood at the upper door and much drug injection /prostitution occurred there. sg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prouty on EGL in the 1980s: "Today, he and many of his long-time associates form the inner core of the Reagan insurgency program around the world. As we see, they are taking on the old Khrushchev role of supporting the wars of national liberation and coming out from under the traditional cloak."

Thanks, Greg, for Prouty's 5/26/85 letter to Krulak. It's important to see Lansdale and his associates' connection to 1980s Central America activity, in light of his previous Philippines and Vietnam work.

If you know of any other material on Lansdale and Central America, or on other of EGL's 1980s involvements, I'd like to see it, on another thread or by PM.

It should be remembered, among those who are apologists for Landale's humanism, that death squads based in Honduras entered El Salvador and left mutilated civilian bodies in ditches and at garbage dumps. This is reminiscent of EGL in the Philippines, and was a tactic elevated to a kind of scholarly discipline by his disciple Medardo Justiniano - photographed at the infamous meeting of Lansdale with John Singlaub and Oliver North. See article link below:

http://www.statecraft.org/chapter4.html

Edited by David Andrews
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you. It was a team. I don't understand why they had spotters next to people who really weren't shooters.

Also, people who believe in the 2 Oswalds: I believe they murdered "Lee." Fifty-one years have passed. We would have heard about him. I researched Donald O. Norton, whom some believe is really Lee, but I don't believe it. He's a red-head. I know hair dye and that hair isn't dyed; it's real. And his fishing supply store became a tourist trap. Then he moved out of Avon, FL.

Kathy C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Mark Valenti

Lansdale, or his lookalike, smoking a hands free cigarette immediately after the assassination?

LansdaleTSBD3.gif

His stride looks like the stride of the unknown guy in the photo. Even more suggestion that the guy isn't Lansdale, walking around in the open in full view of multiple cameras.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do his stride and his right shoulder look like this?

post-6253-0-01595300-1427932337_thumb.jpg

Lots of thigh gap when the figure in Dealey walks, and his left leg's outward motion seems to cause it, as in this Lansdale photo.

Does this figure appear in any other Dealey films?

Any comparable film of EGL walking?

EDITED FOR CLARITY

Edited by David Andrews
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you believe that General Victor "Brute" Krulak, former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps and member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, would identify the subject--in no uncertain terms--as Lansdale if he didn't feel certain about it? Seriously?

I don't have an opinion about Krulak's opinion.

I DO have an opinion about Prouty's claim that he didn't prompt Krulak whatsoever. He clearly did, so that part of his claim is untrue.

Note that in Prouty's letter of reply the name of E Howard Hunt comes up as Prouty mentions in passing: "Many have said one of the tramps was Howard Hunt. It looks like him." -- Yet even though Prouty was very familiar with Howard Hunt, and Hunt was a known CIA Operative, and the photo shows this "tramp's" full face -- Prouty's only, rather non-committal, comment is that "It looks like him." He doesn't say, "It's him." After all, a lot of people "look like" a lot of other people.

Didn't Prouty also suggest that Conein was also in Dealey Plaza that day?

Dear Greg and Mark,

FWIW, Brute Krulak was never Commandant of the Marine Corps, but his son was. Neither was he a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, although he did serve them as a special assistant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_H._Krulak

Respectfully,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...