Robert Prudhomme Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Here is a link to a very well researched and well written thread on another forum by Colin Crow. It deals with the sixth floor of the TSBD, and the events that occurred there following the assassination. http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,12165.0.html
Mark Knight Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Well laid out by Colin. Thanks to "everyone" involved in seeing that the link got posted here. I think this subject may have been touched upon on this forum a long, long time ago...but if I'm remembering correctly, I was quickly "swept under the rug." I'm inclined to believe that Bonnie Ray Williams lied his ass off...
Larry Hancock Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 There are way too many inconsistencies in the first day remarks of the guys on the fifth floor and all the details of the shooting they added days later when it became clear what the official story was going to be..... I also seem to recall some remarks about running over to the west windows to better see what was going on... which is hard to understand if you totally know the shooting was from right above you, best thing to do then would not be to gawk but to duck and cover since a fire fight is pretty likely to be the next order of business as law enforcement charges the sixth floor with drawn weapons....
Thomas Graves Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 There are way too many inconsistencies in the first day remarks of the guys on the fifth floor and all the details of the shooting they added days later when it became clear what the official story was going to be..... I also seem to recall some remarks about running over to the west windows to better see what was going on... which is hard to understand if you totally know the shooting was from right above you, best thing to do then would not be to gawk but to duck and cover since a fire fight is pretty likely to be the next order of business as law enforcement charges the sixth floor with drawn weapons.... Larry, Devil's Advocate: Unless, of course, they wanted to get a better view of JFK to see whether or not he'd been hit. --Tommy
Larry Hancock Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I think that is the way its commonly/officially presented and if you read their first day affidavits and interviews that plays pretty well. If you read their later WC interviews with all the details of the shots from above, hearing hulls hit over their heads and dust coming down from the ceiling its hard to avoid the impression that they realized they were hearing one or more shooters firing from directly above them. If that was their focus then you have to suspend a bit of disbelief and go with the thought they were not concerned about shooters directly above them trying to escape or getting into a fire fight with police but that they were running west to continue to watch the motorcade or to look over to the knoll area...knowing that the shooting had been from right where they were. So yep, you get your choice.....could be either one. However its the rather dramatic disconnect between their first day remarks and their later day details that is more interesting to me.
Guest Mark Valenti Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Factor in the realities of race in the 60s South. Something goes wrong and there's a black man within 100 yards, they're going to get sucked into the blame swirl. If it was me, I'd say whatever boss man wanted me to say.
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Robert Prudhomme, If it's reasonably possible and convenient for you to do so, will you please post here a diagram or whatever of the TSBD showing its north-south-east-west orientation? I've read most of the WC testimonies Colin Crew presents and have trouble understanding the alleged locations described in N-S-E-W orientation terms. Thanks.
Thomas Graves Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) Robert Prudhomme, If it's reasonably possible and convenient for you to do so, will you please post here a diagram or whatever of the TSBD showing its north-south-east-west orientation? I've read most of the WC testimonies Colin Crew presents and have trouble understanding the alleged locations described in N-S-E-W orientation terms. Thanks. http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3966/dppluschartsupdated1111.gif The traditional Sixth Floor Sniper's Window was in the SE corner of the building and was facing SSE Edited March 28, 2015 by Thomas Graves
Robert Prudhomme Posted March 28, 2015 Author Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) Hi Jon Here is a floor plan for the 6th floor: In the lower right is the SE corner, and the window LHO allegedly shot from is designated 33. At the upper left or NW corner are seen the stairs, and to the right and east of the stairs are the east and west elavators, side by side. While it is all open space in the middle, there are many wooden support posts holding the next floor up. Edited March 28, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Thanks, Tommy, Bob, and Randy. The confusing thing for me because of the way I'm wired is point-of-view. Your diagram, Randy, is especially helpful to me. I've always thought of the assassination scene from the point of view of someone in the SN, who would have been looking essentially south and west down upon Elm Street as it wound toward the triple underpass. That person would have been in the SSE corner of the TSBD.
Trygve V. Jensen Posted April 29, 2018 Posted April 29, 2018 (edited) On 3/28/2015 at 3:42 AM, Larry Hancock said: There are way too many inconsistencies in the first day remarks of the guys on the fifth floor and all the details of the shooting they added days later when it became clear what the official story was going to be..... I also seem to recall some remarks about running over to the west windows to better see what was going on... which is hard to understand if you totally know the shooting was from right above you, best thing to do then would not be to gawk but to duck and cover since a fire fight is pretty likely to be the next order of business as law enforcement charges the sixth floor with drawn weapons.... Surely asking questions/mentioning curiosities that have already been answered elsewhere by now, in the numerous threads here, - and research done elsewhere, - so apologies in advance (it is just such an intriguing issue, with the three (allegedly) very closest witnesses to a very crucial matter); Affidavits, statements to the FBI, and WC - testimonies must be considered, but of course so, - also this: CD 87 : Secret Service - report Jan 8th. 1964 (CO-2-34030, (Covering period: 12.02.1963 - 12.06.1963)) (Assassination of President Kennedy - Texas School Book Depository) By: SA Arthur W. Blake, SA William N. Carter, & SA Elmer W. Moore https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490&search="Bonnie_Ray+Williams"#relPageId=775&tab=page --------------------------------------------- "Attendance and employment records had been seized by the FBI, and were not available for examination". --------------------------------------------- https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490&search="Bonnie_Ray+Williams"#relPageId=783&tab=page Norman : - Can be interpreted like Norman describes himself, Jarman and Williams going together to the fifth floor (from the 1st floor), - while Williams states he was alone, eating his lunch on the sixth floor. - From their location while standing, looking out the west windows, - wouldn't they be very close to the stairway, - in danger of encountering the assassin(s) they had just heard shooting ? ( Williams apparently saw a policeman near the stairway before they went down. (Officers in the affidavit) ). - Things happen fast. I have trouble understanding that they ran towards the windows at the west side, in order to look what happened to the President. The limo must have been long gone. If for any reason, - wouldn't it be because all the people outside, ran westwards towards the parking lot ? They did the same as the majority at the Plaza. They followed the crowd, - as Norman describing them running, as they just have seen so many people running in that direction. Like R. Craig said; "People are just that way". But; doing this, with apparently no concern of the shooter coming down the stairs. Is it not somewhat strange if none of their attention was directed to what just happened upstairs ? (Jarman mentiones this a week and a half after stating he was out on the street with Williams , Givens etc. ) Imagine sitting, watching the President go by, and suddenly hearing shots fired from the floor above, - hearing the ejected shells hit the floor, - and seeing dust falling from the roof above you, caused by this, ---- then running to the windows, in order to see outside. People do not necessarily think/act in a rational way, in a situation like this, - but one should think that this was a matter of concern. I.e. acting boldly/curious and run upstairs, to see what/who it was, - or in fear, just flee downstairs at once, instead of standing around for five minutes. And he states he did not see anyone else on the stairway, "while on the way down". One should think he would to the Secret Service, - mention seeing anyone else on the stairway, before going down. If he did so. ------------------------------ Williams: To the Secret Service between Dec. 2nd, and December 6th. (Policeman, lunch at sixth floor, went down to meet Hank and Junior, etc.) - Can't remember where, - but I've read him being placed , if not in, - then at least very close to the "sniper's nest", - as late as 12:25pm. Eating his lunch. The scheduled time of the motorcade passing by, - or ? - Some of you must be tired of answering this, - but is it "correct" ? And the bag with chicken - bones, and the soda bottle, found so close, if not at the spot. And of course, the somewhat remarkable issue of him not noticing anyone else up there. Heard no one, saw no one. ( Maybe the assassin / Oswald just lucked out ? ) - As he was still at the fifth floor, - could the policeman he saw, (that apparently did not see him), have been Baker, who I understand it took the elevator up to the seventh floor, together with Truly ? From the perspective of the official timeline. - If he did not know if the policeman was going up, or down the stairway, was he just standing there transfixed or ? His affidavit, dated Nov. 22nd; - Williams says "Charles was outside and couldn't get in, so I guess he went home". But Givens was there at the so - called, roll - call, if it ever happened ?. - Williams says they (the floor - crew), went down to the first floor and got their lunches before noon. And that he went back to the fifth floor, together with "Hank and Junior". Not the sixth floor. - Saw the President come by, just after they got to the fifth floor. They ran to the west side of the building, and saw no one, except people outside, running and hollering. A little while after, - officers came up. When the officers left, - he, Jarman, and Norman, took the elevator one floor down; to the fourth floor. Stayed there a while, - then went "on out". Why take the elevator one floor down, - stay for a while, then go down. Were they caught up in the commotion or what ? ---------------------------------------- James E. Jarman affidavit Nov. 22nd: - "At about 11:45am, all of the employees who were working on the sixth floor came downstairs, and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known), and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge, Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade." So they (including Givens who were purportedly blocks away, visiting a friend), - and excluding Norman) were out on the street, watching the parade. Jarman in the Secret Service - report, recollected this, one and a half week later to the agents (CO-2-34030): - "After eating lunch, Jarman went with Williams and Norman to the fifth floor to watch the President pass by. Heard three shots. Then after going to the windows on the west side of the building, - he, Norman, and Williams went down the stairway to the first floor. "Did not see any police officer on the stairway". But saw a woman looking out a window on the fourth floor. (Edna Case, who did not hear any shots, for some reason ?) - Jarman now addresses one of the questions, stating he and the others decided it would be "too dangerous" for them to go to the sixth floor. One and a half week after he said he, Williams and the other in the floor-laying-crew had been outside watching the parade. -------------------------------------------- I'm sorry for the outdated questions/remarks, - but so many things just does not seem to add up. Yes, some would argue the changing of recollections over time, - some perhaps because of the race - issue. That they (the three of them) acted like they did, - in fear of being accused of the thing they had just apparently registered as happening, immediately above them. Or that they more easily were persuaded to change their statements, - because of just this. It has become a habit, trying in vain, to puzzle together pieces, - for then just discovering the pieces are mixed even more. If anyone can assist in de-mixing (if that's a word) them, - it would be interesting / appreciated. There are so many factors to take account for, - and multiple perspectives things can be viewed from. It's overwhelming. Why did they say what they said, -- or did they say these things at all, - the statements correctly taken down ? Why did the statements change ? Were they true at one, or several points in time, - or were they false, - and for what reasons if the latter ? -------------------------- The "ultimate" conspiracy -theorist, could even (when refusing all the witnesses, seeing a shooter at the sixth floor,( or simply say it was actually the fifth floor, that they witnessed the commotion at)) propose they were involved; i.e. them racing westwards at once, having "five minutes" to run upstairs, - plant the empty shells, the rifle, - forgetting the chichen-lunch-bag, and the soda bottle, in the hurry of getting downstairs again. (Not stating such, - well knowing it is "outlandish", - so not stribing for being an object of mockery, etc.) I'm not proposing such a version of the events, - just an example, of puzzle-mixing. Trying to view everything from all possible aspects / perspectives, - while the concentration as usual succumbs to fatigue, as well as the puzzlement of conflicting statements. One has to think; what if. In all matters. Like: - Is he, or is he not visible in the Dillard - photo ? Were they there, all three of them, - at the 5th floor ? James Jarman : Or simply come to terms that Lee O. dodged the attention of all of them, the girl(s) in the stairs, and who knows who else, ---- in his preparations, executing of action, - and escape down. ------------------------------- Bonnie Ray Williams : Harold Norman : ------------------------------- Sidenote : Charles Givens : Maybe naive, - but when so many areas are covered by renowned and skilled researchers, - one can do an amateuristic attempt to be creative, - like in search - processes. If not for anything else, - than for personal satisfaction, - having perhaps, an illusion of thinking outside the box, - and trying to see what is not focused on, but yet still in front of our eyes. Contributing, would be ideal though. Yesterday, many hours was spent on searching (in Russian, Japanese, and French ) for newspaper - articles, or videos , relevant. As usual this turned out to be a soup of nonsense. But that is just what all this issue, in itself does; not make sense. At least it is interesting from a hobby-speculator's view. Edited April 29, 2018 by Trygve V. Jensen
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