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Was Oswald Being Set Up As A Patsy As Far Back As 1959?


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Obviously not for the assassination of yet-to-be-elected JFK, but for any "dirty work" that might come along which would require a Marxist, defector-to-Russia-and re-defector "odd duck" patsy?

Oswald could have been manipulated into "defecting" to Russia by leading him to believe that he would be functioning there as a high-value CIA or ONI spy, of great interest to the KGB because of his "aviation electronics operator" and U-2 background.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Obviously not for the assassination of yet-to-be-elected JFK, but for any "dirty work" that might come along which would require a Marxist, defector-to-Russia-and re-defector "odd duck" patsy?

Oswald could have been manipulated into "defecting" to Russia by leading him to believe that he would be a functioning as a high-value CIA or ONI spy there, of great interest to the KGB because of his "aviation electronics operator" and U-2 background.

--Tommy :sun

Not manipulated beyond the run-of-the-mill manipulation we are all subjected to throughout our lives re loyalty, for Uncle Sam / king and country and all the rest of it...

He was not a spy (as such). If he collected information, it was information which was legal to obtain and to have. He was a courier initially.

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One thing for sure - Oswald's defection could not have been the work of an odd duck acting on his own. He had help, and exactly who was helping him or why remains unknown. I assume that Jon will read this. He posed the difficult to answer question - was Oswald an intelligence agent? In popular culture we have no trouble inserting the word 'secret' before 'agent'. Do 'secret agents' follow some kind of recognizable pattern? Is there a formula for ascertaining whether someone is or isn't a secret agent? Some agents we identify eventually, surely not all. We know almost nothing about agents of military intelligence. We see the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

I'm comfortable saying that Oswald was an agent when he entered the USSR. Maybe you are right Thomas, when you suggest that he never really knew the reason he was sent there, or may have believed one thing when his handlers had other motives.

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Obviously not for the assassination of yet-to-be-elected JFK, but for any "dirty work" that might come along which would require a Marxist, defector-to-Russia-and re-defector "odd duck" patsy?

Oswald could have been manipulated into "defecting" to Russia by leading him to believe that he would be a functioning as a high-value CIA or ONI spy there, of great interest to the KGB because of his "aviation electronics operator" and U-2 background.

--Tommy :sun

Not manipulated beyond the run-of-the-mill manipulation we are all subjected to throughout our lives re loyalty, for Uncle Sam / king and country and all the rest of it...

He was not a spy (as such). If he collected information, it was information which was legal to obtain and to have. He was a courier initially.

Greg,

Once again we disagree.

I think Oswald was gullible and wanted to be a spy and, let's face it, he was a Marine Corps "aviation electronics operator" with U-2 experience, and the CIA / ONI took advantage of this and led him to believe that he would be an important spy / U-2 "dangle" in Russia, but the CIA /ONI wasn't planning on using him as a spy / dangle there at all, but only in making him look like an "Odd Duck" Marxist "defector" -- a perfect patsy for any future "dirty work" that might come up in those Cold War years.

It's like what Larry Hancock and Jon G. Tidd have said on this forum. Oswald couldn't offer the Russians any information about the U-2 that they didn't already know. They already knew how high it could fly, the codes were changed on a regular basis, etc.

But Oswald didn't know all that.

Respectfully,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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In his case it was probably known as being a scope dope.....my guess is that he had picked up some basic electronics and radio from the CAP experience and may even some terminology from reading SF....that could place you well on the career aptitude test....actually it worked for me when I went in the Air Force, I just ended up in comm rather than radar.

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Obviously not for the assassination of yet-to-be-elected JFK, but for any "dirty work" that might come along which would require a Marxist, defector-to-Russia-and re-defector "odd duck" patsy?

Oswald could have been manipulated into "defecting" to Russia by leading him to believe that he would be a functioning as a high-value CIA or ONI spy there, of great interest to the KGB because of his "aviation electronics operator" and U-2 background.

--Tommy :sun

Not manipulated beyond the run-of-the-mill manipulation we are all subjected to throughout our lives re loyalty, for Uncle Sam / king and country and all the rest of it...

He was not a spy (as such). If he collected information, it was information which was legal to obtain and to have. He was a courier initially.

Dear Greg,

I'm not saying he was a spy.

I'm saying he thought he was a spy.

Respectfully,

--Tommy :sun

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any ideas on how someone with Oswald's background ended up with a MOS of Aviation Electronics Operator?

Maybe he did well on the Marine Corps aptitude tests for that particular MOS?

Just a wild guess on my part.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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OK, here's the conundrum: If Oswald was a "dangle," the Soviets weren't biting. The cutting of the wrists was an act of desperation...for some reason. Obviously, if Ozzie had to slash his wrists to be allowed to stay in the Soviet Union, it would have been obvious to whomever set him up as a "dangle" that the Soviets didn't really want him. So the "dangle" was a collossal failure...if it existed at all.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Oswald truly was a "dangle." Let's also assume that perhaps his sponsoring organization--whoever they were--was getting impatient. Perhaps they communicated to him that, if the Soviets didn't allow him to stay by "x" date, the operation [assuming there was some sort of operation] was to be aborted.

From those assumptions, it's fairly obvious that Oswald's cutting of the wrists was unscripted, as far as the sponsors' purposes were concerned. At this point, the Soviets had to take him in, from a propaganda standpoint, as a humanitarian gesture. But it can be argued that the Soviets considered such a man as unstable as his American sponsors now did...and therefore Oswald was to serve NO useful purpose, intelligence-wise, in the USSR.

From these assumptions, the only way Ozzie COULD have been useful to an American intelligence sponsor would have been as a courier...as Greg Parker has suggested. And I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Oswald was used as a courier...but only because there seems to have been so little investigation of that particular angle.

Just my thoughts...

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OK, here's the conundrum: If Oswald was a "dangle," the Soviets weren't biting. The cutting of the wrists was an act of desperation...for some reason. Obviously, if Ozzie had to slash his wrists to be allowed to stay in the Soviet Union, it would have been obvious to whomever set him up as a "dangle" that the Soviets didn't really want him. So the "dangle" was a collossal failure...if it existed at all.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Oswald truly was a "dangle." Let's also assume that perhaps his sponsoring organization--whoever they were--was getting impatient. Perhaps they communicated to him that, if the Soviets didn't allow him to stay by "x" date, the operation [assuming there was some sort of operation] was to be aborted.

From those assumptions, it's fairly obvious that Oswald's cutting of the wrists was unscripted, as far as the sponsors' purposes were concerned. At this point, the Soviets had to take him in, from a propaganda standpoint, as a humanitarian gesture. But it can be argued that the Soviets considered such a man as unstable as his American sponsors now did...and therefore Oswald was to serve NO useful purpose, intelligence-wise, in the USSR.

From these assumptions, the only way Ozzie COULD have been useful to an American intelligence sponsor would have been as a courier...as Greg Parker has suggested. And I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Oswald was used as a courier...but only because there seems to have been so little investigation of that particular angle.

Just my thoughts...

Dear Mark,

Do you understand what I'm saying?

The CIA / ONI didn't didn't use Oswald as a spy or even try to use Oswald as a spy.

The CIA / ONI just wanted Oswald to believe that he would its spy in Russia so that he would defect, or at least try to defect, to that country in order to get in place for his "spy" work.

Why?

So that as a future patsy he would appear to be a crazy, "odd duck" Marxist who had defected to Russia.

Respectfully,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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In his case it was probably known as being a scope dope.....my guess is that he had picked up some basic electronics and radio from the CAP experience and may even some terminology from reading SF....that could place you well on the career aptitude test....actually it worked for me when I went in the Air Force, I just ended up in comm rather than radar.

Good answer, Larry. Additionally, he may have picked up some key terms from Edwin Ekdahl.

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Obviously not for the assassination of yet-to-be-elected JFK, but for any "dirty work" that might come along which would require a Marxist, defector-to-Russia-and re-defector "odd duck" patsy?

Oswald could have been manipulated into "defecting" to Russia by leading him to believe that he would be a functioning as a high-value CIA or ONI spy there, of great interest to the KGB because of his "aviation electronics operator" and U-2 background.

--Tommy :sun

Not manipulated beyond the run-of-the-mill manipulation we are all subjected to throughout our lives re loyalty, for Uncle Sam / king and country and all the rest of it...

He was not a spy (as such). If he collected information, it was information which was legal to obtain and to have. He was a courier initially.

Dear Greg,

I'm not saying he was a spy.

I'm saying he thought he was a spy.

Respectfully,

--Tommy :sun

On what basis, Tommy?

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