Was Oswald Being Set Up As A Patsy As Far Back As 1959?

[Greg Parker]

any ideas on how someone with Oswald's background ended up with a MOS of Aviation Electronics Operator?

Maybe he did well on the Marine Corps aptitude tests for that particular MOS?

Just a wild guess on my part.

--Tommy

Maybe he had some help, too?

[Thomas Graves]

Obviously not for the assassination of yet-to-be-elected JFK, but for any "dirty work" that might come along which would require a Marxist, defector-to-Russia-and re-defector "odd duck" patsy?

Oswald could have been manipulated into "defecting" to Russia by leading him to believe that he would be a functioning as a high-value CIA or ONI spy there, of great interest to the KGB because of his "aviation electronics operator" and U-2 background.

--Tommy

Not manipulated beyond the run-of-the-mill manipulation we are all subjected to throughout our lives re loyalty, for Uncle Sam / king and country and all the rest of it...

He was not a spy (as such). If he collected information, it was information which was legal to obtain and to have. He was a courier initially.

Dear Greg,

I'm not saying he was a spy.

I'm saying he thought he was a spy.

Respectfully,

--Tommy

On what basis, Tommy?

What do you mean on what basis?

Oswald could easily have been led, by the CIA / ONI, to think that they were going to use him as a spy / dangle in Russia.

"The KGB is really gonna be interested in you because you worked as an Aviation Electronics Operator with the U-2 spy plane and you know how high it flies, and its codes and all about our new height-finding radar and everything. We're hoping they'll try to recruit you to work for them, and then we'll have you feed 'em a bunch of bad information! All we want you to do right now is get into Russia via Helsinki and defect to the Russians and threaten to commit espionage / sabotage against the U.S. an get in place and see what happens." (Heh heh heh)

For example.

--Tommy

[Greg Parker]

OK, here's the conundrum: If Oswald was a "dangle," the Soviets weren't biting. The cutting of the wrists was an act of desperation...for some reason. Obviously, if Ozzie had to slash his wrists to be allowed to stay in the Soviet Union, it would have been obvious to whomever set him up as a "dangle" that the Soviets didn't really want him. So the "dangle" was a collossal failure...if it existed at all.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Oswald truly was a "dangle." Let's also assume that perhaps his sponsoring organization--whoever they were--was getting impatient. Perhaps they communicated to him that, if the Soviets didn't allow him to stay by "x" date, the operation [assuming there was some sort of operation] was to be aborted.

From those assumptions, it's fairly obvious that Oswald's cutting of the wrists was unscripted, as far as the sponsors' purposes were concerned. At this point, the Soviets had to take him in, from a propaganda standpoint, as a humanitarian gesture. But it can be argued that the Soviets considered such a man as unstable as his American sponsors now did...and therefore Oswald was to serve NO useful purpose, intelligence-wise, in the USSR.

From these assumptions, the only way Ozzie COULD have been useful to an American intelligence sponsor would have been as a courier...as Greg Parker has suggested. And I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Oswald was used as a courier...but only because there seems to have been so little investigation of that particular angle.

Just my thoughts...

Joint sponsorship with someone (or some small group) high up in the Kremlin.

Courier should have been his MOS. It really was the only thing he had experience at.

The lack of investigation on this aspect will be corrected and the case made in my next volume.

[Greg Parker]

Obviously not for the assassination of yet-to-be-elected JFK, but for any "dirty work" that might come along which would require a Marxist, defector-to-Russia-and re-defector "odd duck" patsy?

Oswald could have been manipulated into "defecting" to Russia by leading him to believe that he would be a functioning as a high-value CIA or ONI spy there, of great interest to the KGB because of his "aviation electronics operator" and U-2 background.

--Tommy

Not manipulated beyond the run-of-the-mill manipulation we are all subjected to throughout our lives re loyalty, for Uncle Sam / king and country and all the rest of it...

He was not a spy (as such). If he collected information, it was information which was legal to obtain and to have. He was a courier initially.

Dear Greg,

I'm not saying he was a spy.

I'm saying he thought he was a spy.

Respectfully,

--Tommy

On what basis, Tommy?

What do you mean on what basis?

Oswald could easily have been led, by the CIA / ONI, to think that they were going to use him as a spy / dangle in Russia.

"The KGB is really gonna be interested in you because you worked as an Aviation Electronics Operator with the U-2 spy plane and you know how high it flies, and its codes and all about our new height-finding radar and everything. We're hoping they'll try to recruit you to work for them, and then we'll have you feed 'em a bunch of bad information! All we want you to do right now is get into Russia via Helsinki and defect to the Russians and threaten to commit espionage / sabotage against the U.S. an get in place and see what happens." (Heh heh heh)

For example.

--Tommy

Just wanted to know what your basis was for saying he only thought he was a spy. It's possible, but lacks any real evidence to support it.

[Greg Parker]

OK, here's the conundrum: If Oswald was a "dangle," the Soviets weren't biting. The cutting of the wrists was an act of desperation...for some reason. Obviously, if Ozzie had to slash his wrists to be allowed to stay in the Soviet Union, it would have been obvious to whomever set him up as a "dangle" that the Soviets didn't really want him. So the "dangle" was a collossal failure...if it existed at all.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Oswald truly was a "dangle." Let's also assume that perhaps his sponsoring organization--whoever they were--was getting impatient. Perhaps they communicated to him that, if the Soviets didn't allow him to stay by "x" date, the operation [assuming there was some sort of operation] was to be aborted.

From those assumptions, it's fairly obvious that Oswald's cutting of the wrists was unscripted, as far as the sponsors' purposes were concerned. At this point, the Soviets had to take him in, from a propaganda standpoint, as a humanitarian gesture. But it can be argued that the Soviets considered such a man as unstable as his American sponsors now did...and therefore Oswald was to serve NO useful purpose, intelligence-wise, in the USSR.

From these assumptions, the only way Ozzie COULD have been useful to an American intelligence sponsor would have been as a courier...as Greg Parker has suggested. And I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Oswald was used as a courier...but only because there seems to have been so little investigation of that particular angle.

Just my thoughts...

Dear Mark,

Do you understand what I'm saying?

The CIA / ONI didn't didn't use Oswald as a spy or even try to use Oswald as a spy.

The CIA / ONI just wanted Oswald to believe that he would its spy in Russia so that he would defect, or at least try to defect, to that country in order to get in place for his "spy" work.

Why?

So that as a future patsy he would appear to be a crazy, "odd duck" Marxist who had defected to Russia.

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Tommy, it all sounds good, but I don't know how you'd go about supporting it with actual evidence,

[Thomas Graves]

Greg,

What kind of "evidence" would you expect to find if I'm right that Oswald had been falsely led to believe by CIA / ONI that he was going to be a spy or a "dangle" in Russia?

Would a "preponderance of circumstantial evidence" count?

For example, my scenario might explain why Oswald chose to enter Russia via Helsinki, why he was not arrested on the spot in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow for threatening espionage / sabotage against the U.S., and why he was not arrested upon his return to the U.S.

Could it be that the CIA / ONI arranged these things because it had bigger plans for him -- to use him as a "crazy, Marxist, defector-to-Russia, "patsy" in any possible future "dirty work" that might require such a "Crazy Commie" patsy during those Cold War years?

--Tommy

Edited April 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Steven Gaal]

Was Oswald Being Set Up As A Patsy As Far Back As 1959? Harvey & Lee could indicate it was many years in the making.(GAAL)

}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Put in > OSS assessment program -Julia in google Scholar search

Clinical Assessment of Child and Adolescent Personality ...

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=144190641X

Paul J. Frick, Christopher T. Barry, Randy W. Kamphaus - 2009 - PsychologyHenry Murray was the coordinator of a sophisticated OSS assessment effort. ... Some of the methods used in this ambitious program are described in the ...

########################################

THESE TWO LANGUAGE CHILDREN STUDIES

Annotated Bibliography of Modern Language Methodology for 1949

JB Tharp, ML Gow, HW Machan… - The Modern …, 1951 - Wiley Online Library

... The implication is that children early learn pitch of speech and that "baby talk" is unnecessary
waste. 30. ... Butler advises students to: (1) make some little progress every day, (2) begin precisely
as a child learns to speak, (3) practice speaking habitually, and (4) keep a journal in ...

Cited by 1 Related articles Cite Save

=============================================================

The Modern Language Association of America in World War II

PW Long - Publications of the Modern Language Association of …, 1949 - JSTOR

... Armored troops Artillery ASTP courses attache AWVS blood banks bond drives broadcasting
canteens censorship chaplain chemical warfare children in service ... work 2 military government
58 naval intelligence 10 Navy 40 news reports 62 nursing 17 OPA 36 OSS OWI 35 ...

Cited by 3 Related articles Cite Save\l " More /scholar?output=instlink&q=info:Pl29mpLjFN8J:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&as_ylo=1945&as_yhi=1951&as_vis=1&scillfp=5518845571226065181&oi=llo\l "

Edited April 9, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Thomas Graves]

Was Oswald Being Set Up As A Patsy As Far Back As 1959? Harvey & Lee could indicate it was many years in the making.(GAAL)

}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Put in > OSS assessment program -Julia in google Scholar search

Clinical Assessment of Child and Adolescent Personality ...

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=144190641X

Paul J. Frick, Christopher T. Barry, Randy W. Kamphaus - 2009 - PsychologyHenry Murray was the coordinator of a sophisticated OSS assessment effort. ... Some of the methods used in this ambitious program are described in the ...

########################################

THESE TWO LANUAGE CHILDREN STUDIES

Annotated Bibliography of Modern Language Methodology for 1949

JB Tharp, ML Gow, HW Machan… - The Modern …, 1951 - Wiley Online Library

... The implication is that children early learn pitch of speech and that "baby talk" is unnecessary

waste. 30. ... Butler advises students to: (1) make some little progress every day, (2) begin precisely

as a child learns to speak, (3) practice speaking habitually, and (4) keep a journal in ...

Cited by 1 Related articles Cite Save

=============================================================

The Modern Language Association of America in World War II

PW Long - Publications of the Modern Language Association of …, 1949 - JSTOR

... Armored troops Artillery ASTP courses attache AWVS blood banks bond drives broadcasting

canteens censorship chaplain chemical warfare children in service ... work 2 military government

58 naval intelligence 10 Navy 40 news reports 62 nursing 17 OPA 36 OSS OWI 35 ...

Cited by 3 Related articles Cite Save\l " More /scholar?output=instlink&q=info:Pl29mpLjFN8J:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&as_ylo=1945&as_yhi=1951&as_vis=1&scillfp=5518845571226065181&oi=llo\l "

"These Two Lanuage Children Studies" -- Gaal

What language do you speak, Steven?

--Tommy

Edited April 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

Greg,

What kind of "evidence" would you expect to find if I'm right that Oswald had been falsely led to believe by CIA / ONI that he was going to be a spy or a "dangle" in Russia?

Would a "preponderance of circumstantial evidence" count?

For example, my scenario might explain why Oswald chose to enter Russia via Helsinki, why he was not arrested on the spot in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow for threatening espionage / sabotage against the U.S., and why he was not arrested upon his return to the U.S.

Could it be that the CIA / ONI arranged these things because it had bigger plans for him -- to use him as a "crazy, Marxist, defector-to-Russia, "patsy" in any possible future "dirty work" that might require such a "Crazy Commie" patsy during those Cold War years?

--Tommy

Tommy,

the things you cite would be more accurately described as evidence he was a spy, courier or asset.

[Thomas Graves]

Greg,

What kind of "evidence" would you expect to find if I'm right that Oswald had been falsely led to believe by CIA / ONI that he was going to be a spy or a "dangle" in Russia?

Would a "preponderance of circumstantial evidence" count?

For example, my scenario might explain why Oswald chose to enter Russia via Helsinki, why he was not arrested on the spot in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow for threatening espionage / sabotage against the U.S., and why he was not arrested upon his return to the U.S.

Could it be that the CIA / ONI arranged these things because it had bigger plans for him -- to use him as a "crazy, Marxist, defector-to-Russia, "patsy" in any possible future "dirty work" that might require such a "Crazy Commie" patsy during those Cold War years?

--Tommy

Tommy,

the things you cite would be more accurately described as evidence he was a spy, courier or asset.

Whatever, Greg.

You win.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

Greg,

What kind of "evidence" would you expect to find if I'm right that Oswald had been falsely led to believe by CIA / ONI that he was going to be a spy or a "dangle" in Russia?

Would a "preponderance of circumstantial evidence" count?

For example, my scenario might explain why Oswald chose to enter Russia via Helsinki, why he was not arrested on the spot in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow for threatening espionage / sabotage against the U.S., and why he was not arrested upon his return to the U.S.

Could it be that the CIA / ONI arranged these things because it had bigger plans for him -- to use him as a "crazy, Marxist, defector-to-Russia, "patsy" in any possible future "dirty work" that might require such a "Crazy Commie" patsy during those Cold War years?

--Tommy

Tommy,

the things you cite would be more accurately described as evidence he was a spy, courier or asset.

Whatever, Greg.

You win.

Tommy,

c'mon... how can you say the dude knew to go via Helsinki and therefore that's evidence that he was being duped into believing he was a spy? Give me evidence he was duped!

[Thomas Graves]

Greg,

What kind of "evidence" would you expect to find if I'm right that Oswald had been falsely led to believe by CIA / ONI that he was going to be a spy or a "dangle" in Russia?

Would a "preponderance of circumstantial evidence" count?

For example, my scenario might explain why Oswald entered Russia via Helsinki, why he was not arrested on the spot in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow for threatening espionage / sabotage against the U.S., and why he was not arrested upon his return to the U.S.

Could it be that the CIA / ONI arranged these things because it had bigger plans for him -- to use him as a "crazy, Marxist, defector-to-Russia, "patsy" in any possible future "dirty work" that might require such a "Crazy Commie" patsy during those Cold War years?

--Tommy

Tommy,

the things you cite would be more accurately described as evidence he was a spy, courier or asset.

Whatever, Greg.

You win.

Tommy,

c'mon... how can you say the dude knew to go via Helsinki and therefore that's evidence that he was being duped into believing he was a spy? Give me evidence he was duped!

"You're our spy, Oswald. (heh heh heh). We're gonna have you go through Helsinki, okay?" (heh heh heh)

--Tommy

Edited April 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

Greg,

What kind of "evidence" would you expect to find if I'm right that Oswald had been falsely led to believe by CIA / ONI that he was going to be a spy or a "dangle" in Russia?

Would a "preponderance of circumstantial evidence" count?

For example, my scenario might explain why Oswald entered Russia via Helsinki, why he was not arrested on the spot in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow for threatening espionage / sabotage against the U.S., and why he was not arrested upon his return to the U.S.

Could it be that the CIA / ONI arranged these things because it had bigger plans for him -- to use him as a "crazy, Marxist, defector-to-Russia, "patsy" in any possible future "dirty work" that might require such a "Crazy Commie" patsy during those Cold War years?

--Tommy

Tommy,

the things you cite would be more accurately described as evidence he was a spy, courier or asset.

Whatever, Greg.

You win.

Tommy,

c'mon... how can you say the dude knew to go via Helsinki and therefore that's evidence that he was being duped into believing he was a spy? Give me evidence he was duped!

"You're our spy, Oswald. (heh heh heh). We're gonna have you go through Helsinki, okay?" (heh heh heh)

--Tommy

That's more like it!

[Thomas Graves]

Even better:

"You're our spy, Oswald" (fingers crossed behind back) "We're gonna have you go through Helsinki, okay?" ( heh heh heh)

--Tommy

Edited April 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Greg Parker,

By "courier" do you mean Oswald traveled from Point A to Point B, and at Point B delivered information he was instructed to deliver to some U.S. intel operative?

If so, I'd like to know the facts supporting this proposition.

In my experience, information transmitted by agents was transmitted by spoken words, eventually to a case officer. Writings of any sort were verboten, except encrypted communications from the case officer to analysts.