Greald Ford and CIA Files

[Nancy Eldreth]

Deleted by Myself

Sorry for this delete

Felt is better this way.

Edited November 11, 2004 by Nancy Eldreth

[William Plumlee]

If anyone can identify some specific documents pertaining to Roselli that are still being held confidential until some future date I would love to see the list so we can try to get them via FOIA.

Roselli's testimony to the Committees is released and available,  it is extremely lengthy though.  In addition you can find literally thousands of pages of FBI documents on Roselli on the WEB including surveillance documents.   These documents pretty well detail the FBI's position on Roselli - unfortunately large portions pertaining to his business contacts and associates was redacted by the FBI.   The documents in this release came from a FOIA and cover a period of some 20 years.

There is a hole in the documents as far as the FBI surveillance goes and that hole is from the September - November time frame in 1963;  a related hole appears to be the lack of any reports from SAC Miami on Roselli.

Beyond that,  there are a host of CIA IG,  Church committee and State Department documents that detail his part in the Castro assassination plot - including correspondance between the FBI and CIA on his role.   Most of this is on the CIA segregated CD's available from the ARRC - I mention that because it is a huge amount of paper and the CD's are definitely the easiest way to get it.  Also these documents contain all the details of the FBI and Dade country investigation of his murder.

-- Larry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Larry: Good points. But my point being that there is still information sealed and It could be important, I think... I only stated that investigators I know were looking into what Ford said, or knew as far back as 1974-75. His statement was made after that, I think... I happen to think the Tom Downing information before the HSCA was formed might shed new light on the Rosellie matter and the reason for an ABORT TEAM.

I believe documentation was released to the public only what was wanted and specified in the request. That information was provided. I ask what was left out? That information would compromise on going operators and their operations and besides it was not spacificaly ask for only the Castro assassination matter was given out to a later investigative committee. Now I know if there are no documents then it did not happen and we should'nt go there. But I think going through another angle is important. I have only tried to point that other angle out..

Congressmen Tom Downing, one of the first people who tried to get a committee formed to look into the assassination. What information did his researchers provide in hopes of getting a committee budgeted? That might prove or disprove what was written in the book referenced as to what Ford said. Because nothing has surfaced by now does not mean it did not happen.

If documents were available on some matters then a lot of us ops boys would be DEAD, like Rosellie and others and we would have been dead by the time the information hit the public. Some of us out there still do not understand how it works.... we don't take names and addresses in our game... We don't, or did'nt, care. One other point. What do I have to gain by trying to get what I THINK I know out there in Never Never land. I am not writing a book or want to be in books. If I am I don't care whats written. Its nothing but trouble for me. Its like fighting with a pack of wolves. Do you think I like that? I am only trying to help in my own way and in my own memory... in my own time.

Thanks again Larry. I am working on those questions you ask... but as you know I have to be careful as to how I answer them because they have to check with known facts and documents or I have to leave it out; and I do have to PROBE my memory... I do not read books or have access to the vast material that is out there. As I have said... "I was just a little old pilot... I piled it here and I piled it over there. I piled it whereever they wanted it piled..." It was all their BS anyway Have a good one Tosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, Tosh

A here is one from the time I was a pilot to go along with what you said

at the end of your message above;

I used to be a pilot

And flew just everywhere

I'd pilot here and pilot there

All in careful glee

Then one day in '62

In inverted flight I flew

Under a bridge and over a hedge

And piled up my old J-3

But saved from the wreck

And settling dust and debris

Was the the pilot called ol' self destruct

The pilot I used to be!

{c} by Harry Dean

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Harry: I like that.... as you know "...old pilots.., bold, pilots, there are no old bold pilots...". 8th AF England from WWII

[John Simkin]

Hi Tosh,  thanks for the post.  I do think its important that somebody try to some up with the source  what you described in regard to C. David Heymann’s book, RFK: A Candid Biography of Robert F. Kennedy (1998).  Hopefully somebody can come up with a copy and let us know - that would be a heck of a bombshell for a writer to throw into a book and not cite a source for it. 

I have the book in front of me. It appears on page 361. Unfortunately, Heymann does not provide notes. All he does it provide details of the research he carried out for that particular chapter. This is what he says:

Author interviews for this chapter were conducted with Jim Garrison, Jack Valenti, Charles Spalding, John H. Davis, Stephen Birmingham, William Manchester, Theron Raines, Charles Bartlett, John Treanor, Jr., Blair Clark, Ken O'Donnell, Joan Braden, Coates Redman, Andrew Oehmann, Jr., Joe Dolan, Lem Billings, John Nolan, John Richard Reilly, Red Fay, George Christian, Theodore H. White, Godfrey McHugh, Larry O'Brien, Ramsey Clark, LaVern Duffy, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jr.

Oral histories consulted for this chapter: Robert F. Kennedy, John McCone, Edwin Guthman, Charles BartAlett, Clark Clifford, George Christian, George Burkley, Harry McPherson (LBJ Library), Homer Thornberry (LBJ Library), Jack Valenti (LBJ Library), Ken O'Donnell, John Jay Hooker, Charles Spalding, McGeorge Bundy.

Periodicals consulted for this chapter include USA Today, Washington Post, Dallas News, Time, Life, Look, The Realist.

The following volumes were useful in the preparation of this chapter: John H.

Davis, Mafia Kingish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Manchester, The Death of a President and Controversy and Other Essays injournalism,1950-1975; Collier and Horowitz, The Kennedys; Stephen Birmingham, Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis; Paul B. Fay, Jr., The Pleasure of His Company; Lady Bird Johnson, A White House Diary; Schlesinger, RK; Heymann, A Woman Named Jackie; Stein and Plimpton, American Journey; Harrison Ramie, Growing Up Kennedy: The Third Wave Comes of Age; Clark Clifford, with Richard Holbrooke, Counsel to the President; Lyndon Baines Johnson, Vantage Point: Perspectives of the Presidency, 1963-1969.

Also reviewed for this chapter were recently released files from both the FBI and the Department of Justice, Criminal Division.

Regarding LBJ running for president in 1964: LBJ tapes (released July 1997), LBJ Library.

The current author had access to the outtakes of Paul B. Fay, Jr.'s The Pleasure of His Company, housed at Boston University Library's Rare Book and Manuscript Collection. The author similarly had access to the outtakes of William Manchester, The Death of a President, housed in the same collection. The latter were deposited at BU by Look magazine, which had acquired first-serial rights to The Death of a President. When Jackie initiated legal action, both Look and the book publisher (Harper & Row) agreed to excise segments of the manuscript. It is these segments that were made available to the current author.

Events in Dallas and aboard Air Force One: See Manchester, The Death of a President; Heymann, A Woman Namedjackie.

Charles Spalding overhearing RFK weeping: See Schlesinger, RK, p. 658. Schlesinger's is a somewhat different version of this anecdote.

Jackie and RFK visit JFK's grave: See Manchester, The Death of a President, pp. 693-694.

"President Kennedy was more than just president": RFK papers, JFK Library.

"Bobby's just another lawyer": Schlesinger, RK, p. 664. "I was shocked by his appearance": Manchester, Controversy.

RFK's efforts to limit the investigation into JFK's death; his probable destruction of forensic materials: see John H. Davis, Mafia Kingfish, pp. 289-293.

RFK and J. Edgar Hoover following JFK's assassination: See Schlesinger, RK, pp. 678-680.

New Hampshire primary: See Schlesinger, RK, pp. 700-703, as well as Theodore H. White, The Making of the President, 1964.

RFK and LBJ meeting: See Schlesinger, RK, as well as Lyndon Johnson, Vantage Point.

[Larry Hancock]

John, thank you for looking it up - its pretty amazing to me that he would make such a bold statement, essentially quote a former President on conspiracy and not even provide a specific source or reference - I'd be embarassed.

Perhaps someone else can see a tie to Ford in the source material you listed, I'm familiar with most of the oral histories and its certainly not in any of that. But I'm no Ford expert so something pertinent may be in there somewhere. Knowing you, you will probably find out if this author is living and where he is so perhaps we can gently ask him for his source...grin.

I'll be the first to admit I was not even aware of his book.

-- Larry

[John Simkin]

Perhaps someone else can see a tie to Ford in the source material you listed, I'm familiar with most of the oral histories and its certainly not in any of that.  But I'm no Ford expert so something pertinent may be in there somewhere. Knowing you, you will probably find out if this author is living and where he is so perhaps we can gently ask him for his source...grin.

Yes he is still alive. You can find out more about him here:

http://www.simonsays.com/content/content.c...d=33&pid=361284

Antii Hynonen will probably be able to find you his contact details.

[Shanet Clark]

Very Interesting.

Good Community Intelligence Work.

1) Nancy

Thank you for the Post, that letter is definitely tied to what

we are on to here, a big hint, good work.

Also thank you for deleting---we all have to hold our

tongue, (and our nose) sometimes...

I stress the evidence and keep postings tight.

Tosh) I have been thinking about the motivation for your task.

As my Psych. research shows, people who lie (not you) about things

do not remember accurately, so even if JM/WAVE could de-brief the

ambush team, the shooters and radio people for example,

If these people were prompted to tell cover stories and thinking up lies

about what was going on, then their memory for accurate recall is

all screwed up...the psy.ops guys knew this and wanted YOU and Sergio

to tell them what really happened...so you were their eyes and ears,

whether or not they had other participant witnesses on site or not, capiche?

John) Very Important citations. Gerry Ford was not the brightest

pumpkin on the porch, but he was immensely loyal. The New Nixon

tapes (Kutler) show that Nixon wanted Ford to help him cover up Watergate

and this shows that Nixon considered Ford's Warren Commission work to be

an act of loyalty and covering up...he knows more than almost anyone,

and he's a limited intellect, so Ford is a great one to closely observe for slips, leaks and leads.

Their are quite a few sources named, so I'll comment more in the QUOTE BOX:

--Shanet--

Hi Tosh,  thanks for the post.  I do think its important that somebody try to some up with the source  what you described in regard to C. David Heymann’s book, RFK: A Candid Biography of Robert F. Kennedy (1998).  Hopefully somebody can come up with a copy and let us know - that would be a heck of a bombshell for a writer to throw into a book and not cite a source for it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have the book in front of me. It appears on page 361. Unfortunately, Heymann does not provide notes. All he does it provide details of the research he carried out for that particular chapter. This is what he says:

Author interviews for this chapter were conducted with Jim Garrison, ((!!))

Jack Valenti, ((((TOP AIDE TO LBJ and Hollywood Executive)0000

Charles Spalding,

John H. Davis,

Stephen Birmingham, (("America's Secret Aristocracy", High placed sources)00

William Manchester, (((Conventional JFK /US Historian

Knew much more than he wrote, and Heymann used outtakes of Manchester)))

Theron Raines, ?

Charles Bartlett, ?

John Treanor, Jr., ?

Blair Clark, ?

Ken O'Donnell, ((((Kennedy Principle Aid, Probably not Ford source)))

Joan Braden, (braden?)

Coates Redman, ?

Andrew Oehmann, Jr., ?

Joe Dolan, ?

Lem Billings, ((((LBJ advisor?))))

John Nolan, ?

John Richard Reilly, ?

Red Fay,

George Christian, (LBJ aide who went over to Nixon, Knew of Pappas Greek crisis)

Theodore H. White, Conventional Historian, strong sources

Godfrey McHugh, ?

Larry O'Brien, ((((what's in his files?))))

Ramsey Clark, (Radical former Atty Gen., Strong Possible Source for Ford Quote)

LaVern Duffy, ?

Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jr. (Democratic Insider, strong sources)

Oral histories consulted for this chapter: Robert F. Kennedy,

John McCone,

Edwin Guthman,

Charles BartAlett,

Clark Clifford,

George Christian,

George Burkley,

Harry McPherson (LBJ Library),

Homer Thornberry (LBJ Library),

Jack Valenti (LBJ Library),

Ken O'Donnell,

John Jay Hooker,

Charles Spalding,

McGeorge Bundy.

(((I seriously doubt if the Ford statement can be found in archived

oral histories of John McCone, McGeorge Bundy or Clark Clifford,

but they are great sources for context)))

Periodicals consulted for this chapter include USA Today,

Washington Post,

Dallas News,

Time,

Life,

Look,

The Realist. (Paul Krassner, Mae Brussell)

The following volumes were useful in the preparation of this chapter: John H.

Davis, Mafia Kingish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Manchester, The Death of a President and Controversy and Other Essays injournalism,1950-1975; Collier and Horowitz, The Kennedys; Stephen Birmingham, Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis; Paul B. Fay, Jr., The Pleasure of His Company; Lady Bird Johnson, A White House Diary; Schlesinger, RK; Heymann, A Woman Named Jackie; Stein and Plimpton, American Journey; Harrison Ramie, Growing Up Kennedy: The Third Wave Comes of Age; Clark Clifford, with Richard Holbrooke, Counsel to the President; Lyndon Baines Johnson, Vantage Point: Perspectives of the Presidency, 1963-1969.

(if it was previously published it must be here, the FOrd statement))))

Also reviewed for this chapter were recently released files from both the FBI and the Department of Justice, Criminal Division.

Regarding LBJ running for president in 1964: LBJ tapes (released July 1997), LBJ Library.

The current author had access to the outtakes of Paul B. Fay, Jr.'s The Pleasure of His Company, housed at Boston University Library's Rare Book and Manuscript Collection. The author similarly had access to the outtakes of William Manchester, The Death of a President, housed in the same collection. The latter were deposited at BU by Look magazine, which had acquired first-serial rights to The Death of a President. When Jackie initiated legal action, both Look and the book publisher (Harper & Row) agreed to excise segments of the manuscript. It is these segments that were made available to the current author.

Events in Dallas and aboard Air Force One: See Manchester, The Death of a President; Heymann, A Woman Named jackie.

Charles Spalding overhearing RFK weeping: See Schlesinger, RK, p. 658. Schlesinger's is a somewhat different version of this anecdote.

Jackie and RFK visit JFK's grave: See Manchester, The Death of a President, pp. 693-694.

"President Kennedy was more than just president": RFK papers, JFK Library.

"Bobby's just another lawyer": Schlesinger, RK, p. 664. "I was shocked by his appearance": Manchester, Controversy.

RFK's efforts to limit the investigation into JFK's death; his probable destruction of forensic materials: see John H. Davis, Mafia Kingfish, pp. 289-293.

RFK and J. Edgar Hoover following JFK's assassination: See Schlesinger, RK, pp. 678-680.

New Hampshire primary: See Schlesinger, RK, pp. 700-703, as well as Theodore H. White, The Making of the President, 1964.

RFK and LBJ meeting: See Schlesinger, RK, as well as Lyndon Johnson, Vantage Point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ALSO Heymann may have talked to Ford himself or to Phil Buchen

and gotten this information first hand on deep background.

shanet

[William Plumlee]

Tosh) I have been thinking about the motivation for your task.

As my Psych. research shows, people who lie (not you) about things

do not remember accurately, so even if JM/WAVE could de-brief the

ambush team, the shooters and radio people for example,

If these people were prompted to tell cover stories and thinking up lies

about what was going on, then their memory for accurate recall is

all screwed up...the psy.ops guys knew this and wanted YOU and Sergio

to tell them what really happened...so you were their eyes and ears,

whether or not they had other participant witnesses on site or not, capiche?

Thanks Shanet. I like the depth of your research and objectivity. The follow I feel should be considered: ( from previous post on this topic)

"...there is still information sealed and It could be important, I think... I only stated that investigators I know were looking into what Ford said, or knew as far back as 1974-75. His statement was made after that, I think... I happen to think the Tom Downing information before the HSCA was formed might shed new light on the Rosellie matter and the reason for an ABORT TEAM.

"...I believe documentation was released to the public only what was wanted and specified in the request. That information was provided. I ask what was left out? That information would compromise on going operators and their operations and besides it was not spacificaly ask for only the Castro assassination matter was given out to a later investigative committee...".

".... The FBI had Rosellie under surveillance for most of the sixties and many times in the early mid seventies. However what is not known is Rosellie had a double that was used to throw the FBI off. Thus allowing Rosellie to come and go at ease, without being tailed. J Hoover knew of this arrangement and was part of the CIA cover plan. His SAC's were not. Question where did Rosellie "come and go" and why did he need a CIA double dispatched from WAVE station to cover for him? Rosellie already knew that ambush was already in the pipe. Rosellie is the one who leaked ( the rumor) this information to Military Intel Pentagon..

"... Rosellie was also a double agent for Military and worked into the crime families information pipe line and relayed this information back to Hover and MI through WAVE Station and the CIA's Cuban desk..."

Question. Why would Rosellie want to do this and possibley get hinself killed?

".... Rosellie was working a deal with the United States Government. He was gonna be a free man with another name and ID even be relocated at government expense..."

However it never happened. Why was he being called back to testifie the secord time? Rosellie had already given the committee all he knew about the Casto assassination plots? (which had just became public at about the time he was asked to come back for another round of talks)

What other information did Rosellie have?.., as well as others that were stuffed out.. Sam G the year before... Massferer(sp) ect? Was the release of the Castro assassination CIA information thrown to the public to divert away from what Nixon, Ford,and Johnson already knew? If Rosellie was a double then he would have to be put to sleep along with others who knew of the pending plan from Texas. It was not a Cuban deal..., it was not even a Mafia deal. Kennedy's execution was American politics all the way.

Edited November 11, 2004 by William Plumlee

[Dawn Meredith]

Tosh) I have been thinking about the motivation for your task.

As my Psych. research shows, people who lie (not you) about things

do not remember accurately, so even if JM/WAVE could de-brief the

ambush team, the shooters and radio people for example,

If these people were prompted to tell cover stories and thinking up lies

about what was going on, then their memory for accurate recall is

all screwed up...the psy.ops guys knew this and wanted YOU and Sergio

to tell them what really happened...so you were their eyes and ears,

whether or not they had other participant witnesses on site or not, capiche?

Thanks Shanet. I like the depth of your research and objectivity. The follow I feel should be considered: ( from previous post on this topic)

"...there is still information sealed and It could be important, I think... I only stated that investigators I know were looking into what Ford said, or knew as far back as 1974-75. His statement was made after that, I think... I happen to think the Tom Downing information before the HSCA was formed might shed new light on the Rosellie matter and the reason for an ABORT TEAM.

"...I believe documentation was released to the public only what was wanted and specified in the request. That information was provided. I ask what was left out? That information would compromise on going operators and their operations and besides it was not spacificaly ask for only the Castro assassination matter was given out to a later investigative committee...".

".... The FBI had Rosellie under surveillance for most of the sixties and many times in the early mid seventies. However what is not known is Rosellie had a double that was used to throw the FBI off. Thus allowing Rosellie to come and go at ease, without being tailed. J Hoover knew of this arrangement and was part of the CIA cover plan. His SAC's were not. Question where did Rosellie "come and go" and why did he need a CIA double dispatched from WAVE station to cover for him? Rosellie already knew that ambush was already in the pipe. Rosellie is the one who leaked ( the rumor) this information to Military Intel Pentagon..

"... Rosellie was also a double agent for Military and worked into the crime families information pipe line and relayed this information back to Hover and MI through WAVE Station and the CIA's Cuban desk..."

Question. Why would Rosellie want to do this and possibley get hinself killed?

".... Rosellie was working a deal with the United States Government. He was gonna be a free man with another name and ID even be relocated at government expense..."

However it never happened. Why was he being called back to testifie the secord time? Rosellie had already given the committee all he knew about the Casto assassination plots? (which had just became public at about the time he was asked to come back for another round of talks)

What other information did Rosellie have?.., as well as others that were stuffed out.. Sam G the year before... Massferer(sp) ect? Was the release of the Castro assassination CIA information thrown to the public to divert away from what Nixon, Ford,and Johnson already knew? If Rosellie was a double then he would have to be put to sleep along with others who knew of the pending plan from Texas. It was not a Cuban deal..., it was not even a Mafia deal. Kennedy's execution was American politics all the way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tosh and Shanet,

Thank you for these posts. I totally agree with your thinking and conclusions.

This research is getting very exciting.

Dawn

[Antti Hynonen]

John Simkin Posted Yesterday, 03:48 PM

  QUOTE(Larry Hancock @ Nov 11 2004, 02:56 PM)

Perhaps someone else can see a tie to Ford in the source material you listed, I'm familiar with most of the oral histories and its certainly not in any of that.  But I'm no Ford expert so something pertinent may be in there somewhere. Knowing you, you will probably find out if this author is living and where he is so perhaps we can gently ask him for his source...grin.

Yes he is still alive. You can find out more about him here:

http://www.simonsays.com/content/content.c...d=33&pid=361284

Antii Hynonen will probably be able to find you his contact details.

John and others,

I couldn't find very much with the information "C. David Heymann" Perhaps he is writing under and alias?

Does anyone know?

What does C. stand for in his name?

I'd need a little more in order to dig him up.

Edited November 12, 2004 by Antti Hynonen

[Shanet Clark]

More on the Ford quote.

Since Ford, Phil Buchen and Arthur Schlesinger are prominently

missing from the exhaustive source references for that chapter,

they may have been the source for the quote if it was on deep background.

Buchen, especially would be a conduit for this type of information.

He was Ford's "Haldeman" Also press secretary Ron Nessen probably has some information about this.

Ramsey Clark is actually the strongest candidate for this leak, I believe.

Ford really slipped up when he mentioned classified CIA surveillance, a forward shot and Johnny Rosellie in one short statement.

The psych research ( I posted an Excerpt on the Chauncey Holt thread)

makes it very clear: People who are coached to lie, or make up lies,

do not accurately remember the actual event. They confuse the cover story details with the real events and statistically they remember fewer accurate details

and "remember" more false details when they are later asked to tell the truth.

The Psychologists call this self-generated misinformation (lying) or prompted misinformation (lying from a script). Eugene Brading/Braden was obviously

repeating a scripted story in his statement. Chauncey Holt was prompted to

lie back in the day, and his story is now corrupted---he may not remember how long he was in the rail yards and boxcar. So Tosh and Sergio may well have been

the Control Subjects, or un-prompted witnesses, for Tracy Barnes and William Harvey back in Miami at JMWAVE station...

Heymann's book is so richly documented (although the Ford slip is not specifically footnoted) that it is impossible to pass him off as anything less than

a rigorous and accurate historian. This little slip is very important and strongly supports Tosh's story...the government agencies responsible must be freaking out

now that their private witness (Tosh) has told his story publicly, and that

is the story of a South Knoll shooter, somewhere near the triple underpass.

As I stated in that thread, the Oswald fixation, the Zapruder point of view (POV)

the reasonable case for a Dallas Textile or County Records building ballistics angle,

the interest in the grassy knoll by witnesses and researchers---all this has distracted us from the possibility of a shooter in the "flat" that wide open range to

Kennedy's left. I remember looking at the Aftermath photos years ago and

saying "I wonder who was over on that far side of Dealey Plaza, maybe the

shots came from over there." Tosh says at least one shot did, and I believe him.

When you all are in Dallas later this month, I hope someone could take a

percussive instrument (like two short 2x4's) and crack them loudly from

the parking lot of South Dealey Plaza, while people discern if the sound is

"thrown" by natural acoustics (walls and buildings) to sound like it originates from somewhere else.

Thanks, Dawn and Tosh, but I must say John Simkin and Larry Hancock are way ahead of me in all this....but it is getting interesting around here...best wishes.

Shanet

[William Plumlee]

More on the Ford quote.

Since Ford, Phil Buchen and Arthur Schlesinger are prominently

missing from the exhaustive source references for that chapter,

they may have been the source for the quote if it was on deep background.

Buchen, especially would be a conduit for this type of information.

He was Ford's "Haldeman" Also press secretary Ron Nessen probably has some information about this.

Ramsey Clark is actually the strongest candidate for this leak, I believe.

Ford really slipped up when he mentioned classified CIA surveillance, a forward shot and Johnny Rosellie in one short statement.

The psych research ( I posted an Excerpt on the Chauncey Holt thread)

makes it very clear: People who are coached to lie, or make up lies,

do not accurately remember the actual event.  They confuse the cover story details with the real events and statistically they remember fewer accurate details

and "remember" more false details when they are later asked to tell the truth.

The Psychologists call this self-generated misinformation (lying) or prompted misinformation (lying from a script). Eugene Brading/Braden was obviously

repeating a scripted story in his statement.  Chauncey Holt was prompted to

lie back in the day, and his story is now corrupted---he may not remember how long he was in the rail yards and boxcar.  So Tosh and Sergio may well have been

the Control Subjects, or un-prompted witnesses, for Tracy Barnes and William Harvey back in Miami at JMWAVE station...

Heymann's book is so richly documented (although the Ford slip is not specifically footnoted) that it is impossible to pass him off as anything less than

a rigorous and accurate historian.  This little slip is very important and strongly supports Tosh's story...the government agencies responsible must be freaking out

now that their private witness (Tosh) has told his story publicly, and that

is the story of a South Knoll shooter, somewhere near the triple underpass.

As I stated in that thread, the Oswald fixation, the Zapruder point of view (POV)

the reasonable case for a Dallas Textile or County Records building ballistics angle,

the interest in the grassy knoll by witnesses and researchers---all this has distracted us from the possibility of a shooter in the "flat" that wide open range to

Kennedy's left.  I remember looking at the Aftermath photos years ago and

saying "I wonder who was over on that far side of Dealey Plaza, maybe the

shots came from over there."  Tosh says at least one shot did, and I believe him.

When you all are in Dallas later this month, I hope someone could take a

percussive instrument (like two short 2x4's) and crack them loudly from

the parking lot of South Dealey Plaza, while people discern if the sound is

"thrown" by natural acoustics (walls and buildings) to sound like it originates from somewhere else.

Thanks, Dawn and Tosh, but I must say John Simkin and Larry Hancock are way ahead of me in all this....but it is getting interesting around here...best wishes.

Shanet

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very good post Shanet. Now I have one question for all forum members..

For years bits and pieces of this (my) story has been floating around.. Off and on I have been ask questions and ask to speculate and give my opinions. Big mistake on my part.

My question... now that I have turned a cornor and have become a little more "spacific" as to my replies... perhaps more "Professional".... Why suddenly is there so much information surfacing that is designed to discredit anything I have to say about any of this subject matter?

It seems as long as I do not point the way to various places and voice certain things... and "Stay in Line", then I'm allowed in the "Ball Park"... but when I get damn right "Spacific" then I am slapped in the face, and then I am ask to pick up my bat and leave the ball park...

I assure you and others and those ... I have a hell of a lot to say on this subject matter... to those I say 'Take your Best Shot.. A.H. I think they know who they are... Thanks again.. Its nice to be associated with professionals.. Tosh Plumlee

[Chris Cox]

"Lem Billings" ? Who the heck is that?

This is good research guys. I think Tosh has something here. And Nancy has surprised me with the reference. I'm intrigued by this one.

[Shanet Clark]

"Lem Billings" ? Who the heck is that?

This is good research guys.  I think Tosh has something here.  And Nancy has surprised me with the reference.  I'm intrigued by this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris

LeMoyne Billings was one of John Kennedy's best friends and personal advisors.

He was a playboy and he acted as a godfather for Robert Kennedy's kids

after 1968. That Ford quote didn't (probably) come from RFK and JFK connected people, so the closer the sources in Heymann's book are to Ford, the more likely they are to be the source...

Tosh has reason to believe that Tom Downing knew about the Ford statement.

Tom Downing served in Congress until 1977 and died in 2001.

Here's a eulogy of Tom Downing I copy/pasted off the web.

Will continue to look into this leak...

(((((((((Floor Remarks of

Congressman Scott

Honoring the late Congressman Thomas N. Downing

November 15, 2001

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to join my colleagues in paying tribute to former Congressman Thomas N. Downing.

Tom represented Virginia's First Congressional District from 1959 to 1977. He represented part of what is now the First and Third Congressional Districts, and part, at one time, of the Second.

Tom began his public service career in the military. In 1940, he graduated from Virginia Military Institute. From 1942 to 1946, he served as the troop commander of the Mechanized Cavalry with Third United States Army and commanded the first troops in the Third Army to invade Germany. For his exemplary service involving the rescue of two of his men during a reconnaissance operation in Northern France, Tom was awarded the Silver Star. The

citation accompanying the Silver Star read in part ``Captain Downing, without hesitation, and with utter disregard for his personal safety, ran to the aid of his men among a hail of bullets.''

After his service in the military, Tom would return to school to earn his law degree from the University of Virginia. He practiced law in Hampton for 11 years and also served as a substitute judge of the municipal court for the City of Warwick prior to his election to the Eighty-sixth Congress in 1958. He would serve eight succeeding Congresses with little opposition. While in Congress he was a member of the Merchant Marine and Fisheries Committee and the Space Science and Technology Committee.

During his career in Congress, he represented the Commonwealth and the First Congressional District with distinction. He worked to ensure the future of Newport News Shipyard and was instrumental in the yard's acquisition of the North Yard for its expansion. As a senior lawmaker on the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisheries, Tom had significant expertise in maritime issues and played a major role in crafting legislation.

On that Committee, he was a strong advocate of building a strong and modem U.S. Merchant Marine Service for this country's national security. Tom served as Chair of the Merchant Marine Subcommittee. As Chair, he presided over and helped to craft major legislation to overhaul and modernize the merchant marines. The Merchant Marine Act of 1970 was one of his signature pieces of legislation and was designed to renovate the American Merchant Navy by 1980.

In addition to his work on merchant marine issues on that Committee, he also played a prominent role in crafting legislation that sought to preserve the resources of our oceans and waterways. He played a leading role in the implementation of the Ocean-Dumping Convention and in extending U.S. fishing rights to the 200 mile limit bill. He also played a role in crafting the Deep Water Port Act as well as legislation on deep sea bed mining. At the time of his retirement from the House, one of his colleagues called him the ``premier expert on the problems of the Nation's maritime commerce and its commercial fisheries industry.''

As the Chairman of the NASA Oversight Subcommittee of the then Space Science and Technology Committee, his interests in scientific research made him a national leader of the space effort. On that Subcommittee, he also represented the interests of NASA Langley Research Center located in Hampton, Virginia.

Tom Downing also made a gift to future generations of Virginians and North Carolinians through his efforts to create the Assateague Island National Seashore Park and the Great Dismal Swamp National Wildlife Refuge.

*********************

In the Ninety-Fourth Congress, his colleagues called upon him to chair the prominent Select Committee on Assassinations that launched new investigations into the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. He had been a leading critic of the Warren Commission and was the author of the 1976 legislation to reopen investigation into both cases. Even knowing of his retirement, his colleagues could think of no other Member who could have served in that post with his ability and integrity during the nation's time of turmoil.

************************

As the dean of the Virginia Delegation at the time, Tom Downing helped to set the tone and tradition of our delegation today. He consistently sought and achieved joint action by Members of the delegation, irrespective of party affiliation, to deal with matters affecting the entire State. Today, we still honor that tradition and work together as a delegation to speak with one voice for Virginia's interests.

Even after his lengthy service in Congress, Tom Downing continued his commitment to public service. He served on the Board of Visitors of the Virginia Military Institute from 1985 to 1993 and served as President of the Board of Directors of The Mariners' Museum.

Mr. Speaker, Tom Downing served in this body as a true statesman and Virginia gentleman. He was a good friend to everyone on the Virginia Peninsula and he will be sorely missed.

((shanet))

[Chris Cox]

Thanks Shanet. This is very interesting. I've wondered for years how this WC thing made the leap to the undermining of the HSCA. This is as important as Dealy, for some of us.

BTW I was born in "Hot'lanta". My father was involved in Cuban student gunrunning out of student subsidized housing pject 50's GATech. I believe it is the site where CNN has some property. Don't that beat all? Is it Techwood Drive? I've always wondered. Haven't been to Atlanta in years.

Anyway, thanks for taking interest in this Downing/Ford stuff. I am too.

[Nancy Eldreth]

Going back to the subject of Pres. Ford.

I have always had a great deal of admiration towards him since the first he was sworn in office.

Also for Pres. Carter. The same feelings with both presidents.

I know many have another opion but this is mine.

Also was very happy on the medal that Ford received on how he did in fact handle the Nixon decision. He didn't really cover it up. Not as many may think. He was silent and so was Pres. Clinton. Neither would talk about it any further than just on Ford's conduct on how he handle it. Ford, made it were it was sort of a lapse in time. Actually it was by orders that manner be done and Ford followed through with it, rather then go against what Nixon had written of which he could have done.

I can't wait until one day when some more facts do come out and ths could be far more explained because we really don't have all of the facts on this, as of yet.