Where was Roy Truly Right after the last Shot was Fired?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Everyone seems to be in agreement that Roy Truly can be seen near the foot of the steps of the TSBD in the Couch film. Baker can be seen to run by him, attracting his attention, and the two of them supposedly went on together from this point to the famous 2nd floor encounter with Oswald.

The question is, what is Truly doing at the foot of the steps? According to his WC testimony, he and his boss, Ochus Campbell, had been on their way to lunch, and had stopped to watch the motorcade with a group of TSBD employees standing across the Elm St. extension at the base of a traffic light pole.

"Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street."

The Elm St. extension is actually more than 20 feet wide, plus the sidewalk and the concrete island betweem Elm St. and the Elm St. extension.

Truly was watching the motorcade and heard three shots he believed came from west of the TSBD. He watched the President's limo long enough after the last shot to see it come to a stop and swerve to the left.

It is the moments between watching the limo stop and our seeing him in the Couch film, at the foot of the steps, that interest me, as it appears he has made it to the steps in record time, if one considers Baker's timeline. From the moment Baker heard the last shot, until he entered the TSBD, was no more than 20 seconds.

I would appreciate your comments on this before I examine Truly's explanation for his hasty return to the TSBD.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Everyone seems to be in agreement that Roy Truly can be seen near the foot of the steps of the TSBD in the Couch film. Baker can be seen to run by him, attracting his attention, and the two of them supposedly went on together from this point to the famous 2nd floor encounter with Oswald.

The question is, what is Truly doing at the foot of the steps? According to his WC testimony, he and his boss, Ochus Campbell, had been on their way to lunch, and had stopped to watch the motorcade with a group of TSBD employees standing across the Elm St. extension at the base of a traffic light pole.

"Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street."

The Elm St. extension is actually more than 20 feet wide, plus the sidewalk and the concrete island betweem Elm St. and the Elm St. extension.

Truly was watching the motorcade and heard three shots he believed came from west of the TSBD. He watched the President's limo long enough after the last shot to see it come to a stop and swerve to the left.

It is the moments between watching the limo stop and our seeing him in the Couch film, at the foot of the steps, that interest me, as it appears he has made it to the steps in record time, if one considers Baker's timeline. From the moment Baker heard the last shot, until he entered the TSBD, was no more than 20 seconds.

I would appreciate your comments on this before I examine Truly's explanation for his hasty return to the TSBD.

Robert,

He's not really "at" or "near" the foot of the steps.

He's standing in the middle of the street.

--Tommy

[Robert Prudhomme]

I disagree, Thomas. I think he is very close to the steps, and that he is also standing on the sidewalk. If what I have read is true, Truly was also standing a ways down Elm St. at the time of the shots, likely very close to where Baker parked his motorcycle. This makes Truly's estimation of him and Campbell being 20 feet from the steps of the TSBD grossly in error.

Anyways, have you read Truly's testimony? What do you make of his explanation of how he made it from the Elm St. to the steps of the TSBD? His testimony is another reason I put him much closer to the steps than the middle of the Elm St. extension.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

I disagree, Thomas. I think he is very close to the steps, and that he is also standing on the sidewalk. If what I have read is true, Truly was also standing a ways down Elm St. at the time of the shots, likely very close to where Baker parked his motorcycle. This makes Truly's estimation of him and Campbell being 20 feet from the steps of the TSBD grossly in error.

Anyways, have you read Truly's testimony? What do you make of his explanation of how he made it from the Elm St. to the steps of the TSBD? His testimony is another reason I put him much closer to the steps than the middle of the Elm St. extension.

Robert,

His estimation wasn't that he was "20 feet" away from the steps, but "15 to 20 feet" away.

(I'm making your argument for you in the interest of accuracy.)

Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.

He probably should have said that he and Occhus V. Campbell walked out in the line of spectators watching the motorcade "on the side of the Elm Street Extension," instead of "on the side of Elm Street."

--Tommy

PS Even if he and Occhus were much closer to the steps than parts of his testimony might seem to indicate, what's so suspicious or sinister about that in-and-of itself? Lots of people were near the front steps when the shots rang out.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Davidson]

Robert,

The only person I could find with a similar hat on. He appears to be on the Elm St. annex corner as the limo passes him.

chris

[Thomas Graves]

or, and I tend to go w that this one

larger version HERE post 868

I believe that man's hatted head is visible in Altgen's 6, over the upraised sun visor of the Queen Mary follow-up car. Note the dark-haired woman to his right whose black raincoat is visible through the QM's windshield.

--Tommy

PS Say, doesn't that look like Danny Arce standing near the front of the white car?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Davidson]

I count approx 6 Baker strides, jumping from the annex curb, until he reaches Truly.

3 1/2 ft per stride = approx 21ft to Truly.

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

Okay, I am very pleased at the responses I have gotten, as together, along with Truly's testimony to the WC, they will demonstrate a puzzling thing about Truly's whereabouts in the crucial seconds following the last shot.

Thomas

Why would Truly be standing on the Elm St. extension, if he was watching a motorcade on Elm St.? No, he would be with the rest of the spectators seen on the concrete island separating the extension and Elm St., and that would place him on the Elm St. sidewalk. Truly has made a very bad estimation of distance, as not only is the Elm St. extension more than 20 feet wide, the width of the sidewalks plus the distance further down Elm St. he was more than doubles this number. This is amply demonstrated by the photo posted by Chris which shows just how much further west the traffic light pole was from the steps.

Bart

The two stills you have posted are from the Wiegman film, and, if that is Truly you have identified, demonstrate the conundrum here. The Wiegman film shows the same scene as the Couch film, yet is taken mere seconds before the car Couch is riding in pulls up and stops at the same location, and Couch films Baker running to the TSBD. If that is Truly standing with the other spectators in Wiegman, and that is also Truly standing near the foot of the steps in Couch, how did he cover so much ground so quickly? (I refer again to Chris's post) Let's see how Truly explained this feat to the WC:

"Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you see happen?
Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.
The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?
Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.
Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.
I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what."

I know Texans like to exaggerate but, Truly and Campbell were only with five or six women on the Elm St. sidewalk, and his story about the people in front of him "congealing" around him and bearing him back to the steps of the TSBD sounds like BS to me.

BTW, Thomas, note that he says the crowd "bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building". I believe this settles whether or not he was standing in the middle of the street.

What bothers me is Truly has just heard three shots fired, likely at the President, and saw the limo stop and swerve to the left, and what does he do? He immediately leaves and makes for the TSBD at high speed. Not a bit of curiosity about what has happened to JFK?

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

or, and I tend to go w that this one

larger version HERE post 868

I have a feeling Truly is the man in front with the fedora on. The only thing I can base this on is that Truly mentioned, in his WC testimony, that he had trouble seeing over crowds and, of the three men together there, the man in the fedora seems to be the shortest.

P.S.

The person just behind Fedora Man actually appears to be a woman; see the skinny pantless legs?

Edited July 19, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Okay, I am very pleased at the responses I have gotten, as together, along with Truly's testimony to the WC, they will demonstrate a puzzling thing about Truly's whereabouts in the crucial seconds following the last shot.

Thomas

Why would Truly be standing on the Elm St. extension, if he was watching a motorcade on Elm St.? No, he would be with the rest of the spectators seen on the concrete island separating the extension and Elm St., and that would place him on the Elm St. sidewalk. Truly has made a very bad estimation of distance, as not only is the Elm St. extension more than 20 feet wide, the width of the sidewalks plus the distance further down Elm St. he was more than doubles this number. This is amply demonstrated by the photo posted by Chris which shows just how much further west the traffic light pole was from the steps.

Bart

The two stills you have posted are from the Wiegman film, and, if that is Truly you have identified, demonstrate the conundrum here. The Wiegman film shows the same scene as the Couch film, yet is taken mere seconds before the car Couch is riding in pulls up and stops at the same location, and Couch films Baker running to the TSBD. If that is Truly standing with the other spectators in Wiegman, and that is also Truly standing near the foot of the steps in Couch, how did he cover so much ground so quickly? (I refer again to Chris's post) Let's see how Truly explained this feat to the WC:

"Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you see happen?

Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.

The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.

Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.

I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what."

I know Texans like to exaggerate but, Truly and Campbell were only with five or six women on the Elm St. sidewalk, and his story about the people in front of him "congealing" around him and bearing him back to the steps of the TSBD sounds like BS to me.

BTW, Thomas, note that he says the crowd "bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building". I believe this settles whether or not he was standing in the middle of the street.

What bothers me is Truly has just heard three shots fired, likely at the President, and saw the limo stop and swerve to the left, and what does he do? He immediately leaves and makes for the TSBD at high speed. Not a bit of curiosity about what has happened to JFK?

Robert,

OK, so they weren't standing on the Extension sidewalk, but they weren't standing on the Elm Street sidewalk or the "island," either. At least not according to Don Roberdeau.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4946/dponlygifupdated111112.gif

I don't think your "Fedora Man" is Truly. His fedora looks too light colored above the band and there's a white handkerchief in his breast pocket.

I think Truly and Campbell and Jeraldean Reid (Mrs. Robert A. Reid) were standing in the street off to the right of your Fedora Man, out of view of the camera.

Jeraldean Reid: (Obviously, this Jeraldean Reid is different from the woman with the scarf covering her hair next to your Fedora Man.)

Lots of people were standing in the Elm Street Extension close to where it branched off / merged with Elm Street, including "Stetson Man" (a good landmark), for example. I'm talking about people who were standing in a curving line on the Elm Street Extension pavement, a line of people which started at the tip of the "island."

-- Tommy

Edited July 29, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

or, and I tend to go w that this one

larger version HERE post 868

I believe that could be Truly's hatted head is visible in Altgen's 6, over the upraised sun visor of the Queen Mary follow-up car. Note the dark-haired woman to his right whose black raincoat is visible through the QM's windshield.

--Tommy

bumped for Robert Prudhomme

PS Say, isn't that Danny Acre standing near the front of the white car? And the guy in light-colored work clothes to Arce's right looks like the guy who is highly visible in Darnell / Couch and Weigman whom researchers used to mistake for Roy Truly or Occhus Campbell.

.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Davidson]

It appears that Baker ran through the goal posts on his way to Truly.

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

Okay, I am very pleased at the responses I have gotten, as together, along with Truly's testimony to the WC, they will demonstrate a puzzling thing about Truly's whereabouts in the crucial seconds following the last shot.

Thomas

Why would Truly be standing on the Elm St. extension, if he was watching a motorcade on Elm St.? No, he would be with the rest of the spectators seen on the concrete island separating the extension and Elm St., and that would place him on the Elm St. sidewalk. Truly has made a very bad estimation of distance, as not only is the Elm St. extension more than 20 feet wide, the width of the sidewalks plus the distance further down Elm St. he was more than doubles this number. This is amply demonstrated by the photo posted by Chris which shows just how much further west the traffic light pole was from the steps.

Bart

The two stills you have posted are from the Wiegman film, and, if that is Truly you have identified, demonstrate the conundrum here. The Wiegman film shows the same scene as the Couch film, yet is taken mere seconds before the car Couch is riding in pulls up and stops at the same location, and Couch films Baker running to the TSBD. If that is Truly standing with the other spectators in Wiegman, and that is also Truly standing near the foot of the steps in Couch, how did he cover so much ground so quickly? (I refer again to Chris's post) Let's see how Truly explained this feat to the WC:

"Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you see happen?

Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.

The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.

Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.

I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what."

I know Texans like to exaggerate but, Truly and Campbell were only with five or six women on the Elm St. sidewalk, and his story about the people in front of him "congealing" around him and bearing him back to the steps of the TSBD sounds like BS to me.

BTW, Thomas, note that he says the crowd "bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building". I believe this settles whether or not he was standing in the middle of the street.

What bothers me is Truly has just heard three shots fired, likely at the President, and saw the limo stop and swerve to the left, and what does he do? He immediately leaves and makes for the TSBD at high speed. Not a bit of curiosity about what has happened to JFK?

Robert,

OK, so they weren't standing on the Extension sidewalk, but they weren't standing on the Elm Street sidewalk or the "island," either. At least not according to Don Roberdeau.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4946/dponlygifupdated111112.gif

I don't think your "Fedora Man" is Truly. His fedora looks too light colored above the band and there's a white handkerchief in his breast pocket.

I think Truly and Campbell were standing in the street off to the right, out of view of the camera.

Lots of people were standing on the Elm Street Extension pavement close to the pavement of Elm Street including "Stetson Man" (a good landmark), for example. I'm talking about people who were standing in a curving line on the Elm Street Extension pavement, a line of people which started at the tip of the "island."

-- Tommy

I think Roberdeau is mistaken. The two men he refers to as Truly and Campbell are dressed in khaki work clothes, yet Truly is photographed in a suit, tie and fedora some time after the rifle was found.

Besides, look again at Truly's testimony:

"Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.

I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building."

A couple of sentences stand out here:

"And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him."

Neither of the two men identified as Truly and Campbell by Roberdeau are anywhere near the steps, or Baker, for that matter.

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas:

Is this the region of Altgens 6 you're focusing on?

Yes, Randy, but you've blown it up a little too much because it's lost some of its resolution.

The resolution is important because when it's good, you can see the black raincoat of the woman to his right through the car's windshield.

I don't think this guy is Roy Truly, but I reserve the right to change my mind.

LOL

--Tommy

PS Multi-tasking here: Don Roberdeau has O.V.Campbell, Truly, Stetson Hat Man, and Jeraldean Reid (Mrs. Robert A. Reid) standing next to each other from left to right, west-south-west to east-north-east, in the street directly in front of the TSBD front door. I don't know if Roberdeau is correct or not. But FWIW, Mrs. Robert A. Reid (Jeraldine Bray Reid) testified to the WC that she was standing with Truly and Campbell during the shooting. Someone (I don't know who) has identified the woman whose head is visible between two women (one of whom is wearing a white blouse) in the far right foreground as glasses-wearing Jeraldean Reid.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

or, and I tend to go w that this one

larger version HERE post 868

I have a feeling Truly is the man in front with the fedora on. The only thing I can base this on is that Truly mentioned, in his WC testimony, that he had trouble seeing over crowds and, of the three men together there, the man in the fedora seems to be the shortest.

P.S.

The person just behind Fedora Man actually appears to be a woman; see the skinny pantless legs?

Edit:

Yes, Robert. I'm beginning to think it might be Jeraldean Reid (Mrs. Robert A. Reid), and that Occhus V. Campbell might be standing way, way back behind her.

--Tommy

Edited July 29, 2015 by Thomas Graves