Who was JFK?

[Jon G. Tidd]

QUESTION: Had he lived, what would JFK's response have been to an imminent toppling of the Saigon government by Viet Cong and North Vietnamese regulars?

My guess is that he would have tried to prop up the Saigon government using military supplies, special forces troops, more advisers, and air and naval forces. I believe these approaches would have failed to stop either the Viet Cong or the NVA. Eventually, probably in 1965 I figure, he would be faced with sending ground combat forces to Viet Nam or losing the South to the communists. I suspect he would have been in too deep to turn his back on the South. Speculation, of course.

But speculation with a basis. JFK believed in special forces (Green Berets) and saw them as a way to stand up to communist aggression masquerading as national liberation. JFK believed special forces could prevail in places like Viet Nam. In fact, special forces performed their assigned tasks well in Viet Nam but were no match (because of numbers) against NVA main line units. Basically, special forces operated on the margins of the war. So JFK, it turned out, over-estimated the capabilities of the special forces. They had a military role, but it was inherently a limited and militarily incomplete role.

JFK was both knowledgable of South Viet Nam and lacking knowledge of the war there. I believe he would have played his hand; found he was losing; and been forced to fish rather than cut bait.

[James DiEugenio]

Jon:

The whole point about being a researcher on this case is not to express what you think or what you believe about either the assassination, or who JFK really was.

The point is to express what you know to be true due to the evidence.

The thesis of John Newman's book is that Kennedy did understand what was happening in Vietnam. I mean surely after the battle of Ap Bac, because his State Department representatives were in country at the time. As John states, Kennedy was essentially going to hoist the hawks on their own petard. That is, since they said we were winning, then we could withdraw. Even though Kennedy knew that was not the case. Which is why he was telling McNamara to speed up the timetable.

Kennedy understood from Edmund Gullion, that Vietnam was not a place to fight both the Viet Cong and NVM army. As he said, how do you fight a force that is everywhere and nowhere and has the support of the people? That is why he refused eight different requests for the insertion of combat troops in 1961. Even though these were sent to him describing the most dire circumstances if he refused them.

Kennedy understood that for the US Army to get involved in a land war in the jungles of Indochina was simply futile. He knew this not just from Gullion, but from DeGaulle and MacArthur. In fact, whenever someone would try and convince him to do otherwise, he would declare: "Alright, you go see MacArthur. When you convince him that I should do it, have him call me." Of course, that ended the argument.

To JFK, Indochina was not worth the struggle. Which is why he was determined to get a settlement in Laos, and never contemplated going into Cambodia. Which LBJ did in a small way, and Nixon actually did in a wholesale way--with catastrophic results.

Edited July 23, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[Peter McGuire]

https://youtu.be/UM3uaXp8DAk

Thanks again, Jim for your research on this matter.

"In the final analysis, it's their war"

JFK September 2nd 1963

[Kenneth Drew]

QUESTION: Had he lived, what would JFK's response have been to an imminent toppling of the Saigon government by Viet Cong and North Vietnamese regulars?

My guess is that he would have tried to prop up the Saigon government using military supplies, special forces troops, more advisers, and air and naval forces. I believe these approaches would have failed to stop either the Viet Cong or the NVA. Eventually, probably in 1965 I figure, he would be faced with sending ground combat forces to Viet Nam or losing the South to the communists. I suspect he would have been in too deep to turn his back on the South. Speculation, of course.

But speculation with a basis. JFK believed in special forces (Green Berets) and saw them as a way to stand up to communist aggression masquerading as national liberation. JFK believed special forces could prevail in places like Viet Nam. In fact, special forces performed their assigned tasks well in Viet Nam but were no match (because of numbers) against NVA main line units. Basically, special forces operated on the margins of the war. So JFK, it turned out, over-estimated the capabilities of the special forces. They had a military role, but it was inherently a limited and militarily incomplete role.

JFK was both knowledgable of South Viet Nam and lacking knowledge of the war there. I believe he would have played his hand; found he was losing; and been forced to fish rather than cut bait.

First, I believe that JFK had every intention to get all troops out of S. VN. He may have helped them with military supplies, but not troops. He had no intent to 'win' a war in Vietnam. No other president had any intent to win in Vietnam. LBJ only wanted the country to spend mucho dinero there and make tons of money for his buddies. He succeeded very well at his goals. I think if Nixon could have won without troops there, he might have, but he didn't have a desire to win (or lose). I know of no miliitary action the US took that would go in the direction of winning the war. Even the Democrats got tired of the war after all the war protesting affecting their election chances at home. One reason the war went in the direction that it did was that the CIA was so heavily involved in thinking they could effect regime change in any country they wanted to with subversive activities, especially using Special Forces. Unfortunately they didn't estimate the number of Special Forces needed. They lost that battle in Cuba and they didn't want another loss in Vietnam so closely behind Cuba. There was never anything in the Vietnam war that would benefit America. Only a bunch of political deadbeats.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[James DiEugenio]

KD: I think if Nixon could have won without troops there, he might have, but he didn't have a desire to win (or lose).

​But Nixon lied his head off about this in public. Privately, he knew that the USA could not militarily win the war. In fact he knew this almost immediately when Abrams told him that the ARVN would need even more American direct intervention to sustain it for five years. That is something Nixon was not going to do. He saw what happened to Johnson.

​So he tried invading Cambodia which was a horrible mistake that did not help South Vietnam very much at all.

​When nothing worked, he and Kissinger decided on the Decent Interval strategy. Let the country fall on someone else's watch.

[James DiEugenio]

I should add, if i recall correctly, didn't Kissinger tell Oriana Fallaci something like "We should have never been there."

Incredible irony if true.

Because when you study the time line, its Eisenhower/Nixon that makes the first real American commitment to South Vietnam. Because before them there really was not a South Vietnam.

And Nixon was the point man in congress for Foster Dulles on Operation Vulture, that is the plan to lift the siege of Dien Bien Phu with American air strikes, including three atomic bombs..

Dulles, Nixon and Eisenhower then split up the country into north and south and hired Lansdale to find and install Diem. And that is how we got there.

Henry, meet your idiot boss, DIck Nixon.

Edited July 24, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[Pat Speer]

While I haven't read as much on this topic as Jim, or many others, I have read quite a bit, and it's clear to me that JFK would never have sent a half a million American boys over to Vietnam. I mean, that's just ludicrous. As noted, he believed in Special Forces...Green Berets. Well, my best friend was a Lt. Col. in U.S. Special Forces, who was most recently stationed in the Ukraine, working with the Ukrainian military. And I spent an awful lot of time talking with him. And he helped clear up a lot of my misconceptions about Special Forces.

For one, Special Forces is not an elite fighting force, a la Seals or Rangers. Special Forces is an elite TRAINING force. They have a unique set of skills, to be sure. But it isn't leading our allies into combat per se. It is training our allies how to protect themselves, and, if necessary, go into combat. It is speaking to our allies in their own language. It is sometimes working alone, behind enemy lines. It is "advising".

So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a President enamored with Special Forces, who keeps sending more and more Special Forces into a country in what is essentially a civil war, is a President resistant to using ground troops. Well, it follows then that every time Kennedy sent more "advisers" to Vietnam he was not doubling down, and sending the message he was committed to propping up the country at all costs, (as claimed by those who choose to view him as a hawk) but doubling down and sending a message to his military that he would refuse to send in American ground troops, no matter how bad things got.

He knew sending in troops might be the only way to stop communism from spreading, but he simply refused to do it.

And, no, it's not absurd to think this got him killed.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Pat Speer

[Kenneth Drew]

I should add, if i recall correctly, didn't Kissinger tell Oriana Fallaci something like "We should have never been there."

Incredible irony if true.

Because when you study the time line, its Eisenhower/Nixon that makes the first real American commitment to South Vietnam. Because before them there really was not a South Vietnam.

And Nixon was the point man in congress for Foster Dulles on Operation Vulture, that is the plan to lift the siege of Dien Bien Phu with American air strikes, including three atomic bombs..

Dulles, Nixon and Eisenhower then split up the country into north and south and hired Lansdale to find and install Diem. And that is how we got there.

Henry, meet your idiot boss, DIck Nixon.

And, this may be stretching it a little, but.... When Eisenhower was leaving office he warned about the Military/Industrial Complex. His speech originally said Military/Industrial/Congressional Complex. I think he knew the triad was working together to subvert/overthrow socialist/communist/dictatorships that were not friendly to the US. This was a huge movement that had gotten accustomed to working together during WWII and they didn't want the 'good times'(to them) to end. The thrill of power had gotten very addictive. Eisenhower may have 'recognized' this too late to do anything about it, or he may have known it all along but was 'powerless' to do anything about it. Had Nixon won in 60, the VietNam war would likely have begun in 61. I don't think the US president can really stop these activities. May be beyond his 'paygrade'.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Len Colby]

Quoting excerpts from the records of the Sec Def Conference, that is a primary document not secondary spin:

Part IV: Withdrawal of US Forces:

"As a matter of urgency, a plan for withdrawal of about 1,000 US troops before the end of the year should be developed."

Part V: Phase out of US Forces

"SecDef advised that the phase out program presented during May 6 Conference appeared too slow. In consonance with Part 3, request you develop a revised plan to accomplish more rapid phase out of US Forces."

Comprehensive Plan: Republic of Vietnam

Item 2: Decision Made and Actions to be taken

1."Draw up training plans for the RVN that will permit US to start an earlier withdrawal of US personnel than proposed under the plan presented."

Item 3: Role of Attack AIrcraft

"Secdef stated the percentage of RVNAF effort was no greater than a year ago. Our sights should be higher and he wanted to get US pilots out of combat and transport operations."

Comprehensive Plan: Part 2, Force Structure

"At the same time, the Secretary stated that we should seek opportunities to leave our material behind for RVN to use wherever they can absorb it..."

Part C: Relations of Reductions in US Strength to Growth in Self Sufficiency

"In connection with this presentation...the Secretary of Defense stated that the phase out appears too slow. He directed that training plans be developed for the GVN by CINPAC which will permit a more rapid phase out..."

LOL Jim YOU cited the NYT article now you dismiss it as "secondary spin" no one disputes that JFK wanted to get out of the mess he essentially had created. But there is reason to doubt if he would have let Vietnam fall when their own military proved incapable of saving the country.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

But Pat is right, the notion that he would have ramped up the war the was LBJ did is "just ludicrous."

[Len Colby]

Few quotes have been taken out of context as much as Ike's "military industrial complex" comments from his 'farewell address.'

[David Andrews]

If we believe the White House hearsay dialogue, the recall of Henry Cabot Lodge was on tap, because of the Diem murders.

[Brian Schmidt]

Len, how has it been taken out of context?

David, I've mentioned this on here a few times, but according to Roger Stone, who was close to John Lodge, HCL had foreknowledge of Kennedy's assassination. If true, it rules out a 'rogue' operation and implies the assassination was somewhat of an 'open secret' among the most senior circles of government.

[James DiEugenio]

Colby:

You asked me for the date of the NY Times article. You then cherry picked from it just what you wanted. You did not link to it. And you cut off the title which said, JFK had exit plan from Vietnam.

JFK made a mess of Vietnam? You cannot be serious can you? As I proved above, that commitment, down to the splitting up of the country and the creation of a new entity called South Vietnam, and the entry of American advisors, was all done by Eisenhower, Dulles and Nixon. And they then reneged on their promise to reunite the country in 1956, because they knew the guy they found to lead the new country of South Vietnam, namely Diem, would lose a national election to Ho Chi Minh. That was the event which caused the war.

As per not following through on the May Sec Def plan to exit, well yeah if you eliminate the following, you can say there is ambiguity about it:

1. The McNamara Taylor Trip

2. Kennedy's heisting of their report and his editing of it through the WhIte House and then presenting his version to them

3. Kennedy's ramrodding of this report through his advisors

4. The issuance of NSAM 263 and its attachment to this report

5. The newly discovered evacuation plan

Which takes us all the way through November of 1963.

So maybe Colby arranged a seance to talk to JFK more recently, and the spirit said, "Hey I was really just kidding with all this stuff."

Edited July 24, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[David Andrews]

"David, I've mentioned this on here a few times, but according to Roger Stone, who was close to John Lodge, HCL had foreknowledge of Kennedy's assassination. If true, it rules out a 'rogue' operation and implies the assassination was somewhat of an 'open secret' among the most senior circles of government."

Well, I believe it, but for historical accuracy I have to call the Lodge recall "hearsay." If the assassination was an open secret - and that's not unbelievable - then George Michael Evica, Jim DiEugenio, and myself are right: it was approved at the highest levels of American-globalist capital, including the family with longstanding connections to the Lodges and Harrimans, and more recent connections to the Bundys.

Edited July 24, 2015 by David Andrews