The "Shallow" Back Wound and the "Short" Shot

[Robert Prudhomme]

Okay, Kenneth, show me how a cartridge would be "crimped in such a way" that would indicate it had been loaded with a sabot.

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of the

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

See the sentence in bold in that paragraph. Seems as if a bullet is in a cartridge shell that it has to be sealed. Seems as if there is more than one way to accomplish that. One to use the plastic insert, the other to crimp the shell around the bullet. I suppose it depends on the difference in diameter.

Right, Kenneth, in other words, you and the other people that seem to know so much about sabots don't have a clue what "crimped in a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it" means and none of you are capable of demonstrating it, either.

This is almost as comical as the scope on the Carcano being mounted for a left hand shooter.

[Kenneth Drew]

Okay, Kenneth, show me how a cartridge would be "crimped in such a way" that would indicate it had been loaded with a sabot.

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of the

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

See the sentence in bold in that paragraph. Seems as if a bullet is in a cartridge shell that it has to be sealed. Seems as if there is more than one way to accomplish that. One to use the plastic insert, the other to crimp the shell around the bullet. I suppose it depends on the difference in diameter.

Right, Kenneth, in other words, you and the other people that seem to know so much about sabots don't have a clue what "crimped in a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it" means and none of you are capable of demonstrating it, either.

This is almost as comical as the scope on the Carcano being mounted for a left hand shooter.

While you're laughing at that, answer this. If you wanted to put a bullet into a cartridge and they did not make a plastic 'sabot' housing that fit a carcano to a 30 30, and the bullet diameter was almost exactly the same as the cartridge diameter, just a 1 thousandth or so difference, how would you seal it? The choice of an answer, according to you is that you can't use any type of crimping device. So what is your answer?

[Kenneth Drew]

Robert P, while reading up on the subject of how cartridges are assembled, I ran across this:

Assembling the bullet

• 4 The bullet is firmly seated into the open end of the case. The bullet has a coating of lubricant to prevent corrosion and assist in the assembly process. The bullet is then crimped into the case to give the correct overall length of the cartridge. The crimp reduces the diameter of the open end of the case and captures the bullet tightly, sealing the assembly together so moisture cannot invade the powder.

  The press used to assemble cartridges must feed each component accurately and in the correct sequence. Otherwise, cases could be unprimed, powder left out, or bullets seated incorrectly. Any of these could result in a misfire or loss of accuracy at the minimum and, at worst, cause the firearm to blow apart upon firing. In each stage of the process, special dies perform the important assembly function. The dies are made of tooling carbide for long life, and have close adjustments to produce quality ammunition.

  After assembly, the finished cartridges are packaged, usually 50 to a box, and prepared for shipment to the shooter.

Read more: http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Ammunition.html#ixzz3jJxY4Ccx

I going to take your word for it because you say they don't 'crimp' and say that obviously these people don't know what they're talking about. Right?

Edited August 20, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Robert Prudhomme]

Okay, Kenneth, show me how a cartridge would be "crimped in such a way" that would indicate it had been loaded with a sabot.

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of the

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

See the sentence in bold in that paragraph. Seems as if a bullet is in a cartridge shell that it has to be sealed. Seems as if there is more than one way to accomplish that. One to use the plastic insert, the other to crimp the shell around the bullet. I suppose it depends on the difference in diameter.

Right, Kenneth, in other words, you and the other people that seem to know so much about sabots don't have a clue what "crimped in a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it" means and none of you are capable of demonstrating it, either.

This is almost as comical as the scope on the Carcano being mounted for a left hand shooter.

While you're laughing at that, answer this. If you wanted to put a bullet into a cartridge and they did not make a plastic 'sabot' housing that fit a carcano to a 30 30, and the bullet diameter was almost exactly the same as the cartridge diameter, just a 1 thousandth or so difference, how would you seal it? The choice of an answer, according to you is that you can't use any type of crimping device. So what is your answer?

The real question is, why would you try to load that large a diameter of bullet into that cartridge? If you can't use a sabot, what is going to guide that smaller (by a thousandth or so) bullet through the riflings of the bigger rifle's barrel? Simply "crimp" it into place and hope for the best as it rattles back and forth down the barrel?

[Robert Prudhomme]

And by the way, the Carcano bullet is 6.8 mm in diameter while the .30 calibre 30-06 is 7.8 mm in diameter. HOWEVER, the bore diameter of the 30-06 is only 7.62 mm across the lands, and your sabot has to be smaller than this.

7.62 - 6.8 = .82 mm or .032 inch, meaning there is only 16/1000 inch clearance on either side of the Carcano bullet for the tops of the 30-06 lands

[Kenneth Drew]

Okay, Kenneth, show me how a cartridge would be "crimped in such a way" that would indicate it had been loaded with a sabot.

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of the

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

See the sentence in bold in that paragraph. Seems as if a bullet is in a cartridge shell that it has to be sealed. Seems as if there is more than one way to accomplish that. One to use the plastic insert, the other to crimp the shell around the bullet. I suppose it depends on the difference in diameter.

Right, Kenneth, in other words, you and the other people that seem to know so much about sabots don't have a clue what "crimped in a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it" means and none of you are capable of demonstrating it, either.

This is almost as comical as the scope on the Carcano being mounted for a left hand shooter.

While you're laughing at that, answer this. If you wanted to put a bullet into a cartridge and they did not make a plastic 'sabot' housing that fit a carcano to a 30 30, and the bullet diameter was almost exactly the same as the cartridge diameter, just a 1 thousandth or so difference, how would you seal it? The choice of an answer, according to you is that you can't use any type of crimping device. So what is your answer?

The real question is, why would you try to load that large a diameter of bullet into that cartridge? If you can't use a sabot, what is going to guide that smaller (by a thousandth or so) bullet through the riflings of the bigger rifle's barrel? Simply "crimp" it into place and hope for the best as it rattles back and forth down the barrel?

The real question is, why would you try to load that large a diameter of bullet into that cartridge? I guess you misunderstood, I wouldn't load any bullets into cartridges. That casing was supposedly found on the top of a building in Dallas. Do you really not know the answers to those questions you asked?

here is 'the theory', not mine. that they wanted to get the 399 bullet into the limo without changing the 'rifling' marks that had been put onto it from the Carcano rifle so they had to fire it from a rifle with a larger barrel. I don't buy that theory because it doesn't work for several reasons, none of which have to do with crimping. You recall that I only quoted someone else on getting the bullet into the limo. I don't personally think 399 has ever been anywhere near the limo.

But I notice you shied away from answering the question, obviously those folks that wrote the article about assembling the bullets that think that they 'crimp' them don't really know how a bullet is assembled. Right? You are stating that casings are not crimped in the assembly process, regardless of what those folks think.

[Kenneth Drew]

And by the way, the Carcano bullet is 6.8 mm in diameter while the .30 calibre 30-06 is 7.8 mm in diameter. HOWEVER, the bore diameter of the 30-06 is only 7.62 mm across the lands, and your sabot has to be smaller than this.

7.62 - 6.8 = .82 mm or .032 inch, meaning there is only 16/1000 inch clearance on either side of the Carcano bullet for the tops of the 30-06 lands

I don't really have a need to know the cartridge dimensions because I'm not trying to make the fit. That was apparently done 52+ years ago (if at all)

But if I understand the theory, they wanted a barrell large enough that the rifling marks on the bullet would remain so it could be identified as coming from a Carcano. Seems as if there were only a thousandth difference it might be too tight and the rifling marks would be disturbed.

Robert, did you miss #168, the quote about assembing bullets?

Edited August 20, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Robert Prudhomme]

Bullet cannelures are found on most, but not all, bullets. The cannelure is the narrow band around the circumference of the bullet with the little vertical ridges. It is slightly narrower in diameter than the bullet, and many believe it helps lock the core of the bullet to the jacket.

Most bullets are seated into a cartridge until the cannelure is even with the mouth of the cartridge. The mouth of the cartridge is then crimped into the cannelure, as shown below.

Crimping the mouth of the cartridge into the narrower cannelure locks the bullet into position and keeps it from getting pushed further into the cartridge. Interestingly, the Italian military issue 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges were made with a shoulder inside the cartridge mouth at about the point the base of the bullet was seated. This accomplished the same purpose of keeping the bullet in place in the mouth.

However, when the bullet is fired, the larger diameter bullet base passes through this crimp, and stretches it back out to the diameter of the bullet.

This is why I would like to see what the crimp looks like for a saboted bullet, as the diameter of the sabot is always equal to the diameter of a bullet normally fired in the larger rifle.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Kenneth Drew]

Bullet cannelures are found on most, but not all, bullets. The cannelure is the narrow band around the circumference of the bullet with the little vertical ridges. It is slightly narrower in diameter than the bullet, and many believe it helps lock the core of the bullet to the jacket.

Most bullets are seated into a cartridge until the cannelure is even with the mouth of the cartridge. The mouth of the cartridge is then crimped into the cannelure, as shown below.

Crimping the mouth of the cartridge into the narrower cannelure locks the bullet into position and keeps it from getting pushed further into the cartridge. Interestingly, the Italian military issue 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges were made with a shoulder inside the cartridge mouth at about the point the base of the bullet was seated. This accomplished the same purpose of keeping the bullet in place in the mouth.

However, when the bullet is fired, the larger diameter bullet base passes through this crimp, and stretches it back out to the diameter of the bullet.

This is why I would like to see what the crimp looks like for a saboted bullet, as the diameter of the sabot is always equal to the diameter of a bullet normally fired in the larger rifle.

This is why I would like to see what the crimp looks like Oh, I thought you were saying they wouldn't use a crimp to do that.

Why would you think that crimp would look any different from any other crimp holding a bullet into the casing? In the bullets in your photo, you can clearly see the crimp. But you say if the bullet is the correct diameter, when the bullet is fired it will open the crimp back up to the bullet size. Now just going by the original quote, and with them saying the premise was that they wanted to get this 'smaller' bullet into the limo without removing the rifling marks and therefore the bullet was slightly smaller so the crimp was slightly larger so that when it was fired it 'would not' remove all of the crimp. Now that is only a supposition of why the 'crimp marks' on the empty shell raised suspicions, but I've seen a lot of suspicions raised over much smaller details than that.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Robert Prudhomme]

Bullet cannelures are found on most, but not all, bullets. The cannelure is the narrow band around the circumference of the bullet with the little vertical ridges. It is slightly narrower in diameter than the bullet, and many believe it helps lock the core of the bullet to the jacket.

Most bullets are seated into a cartridge until the cannelure is even with the mouth of the cartridge. The mouth of the cartridge is then crimped into the cannelure, as shown below.

Crimping the mouth of the cartridge into the narrower cannelure locks the bullet into position and keeps it from getting pushed further into the cartridge. Interestingly, the Italian military issue 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges were made with a shoulder inside the cartridge mouth at about the point the base of the bullet was seated. This accomplished the same purpose of keeping the bullet in place in the mouth.

However, when the bullet is fired, the larger diameter bullet base passes through this crimp, and stretches it back out to the diameter of the bullet.

This is why I would like to see what the crimp looks like for a saboted bullet, as the diameter of the sabot is always equal to the diameter of a bullet normally fired in the larger rifle.

This is why I would like to see what the crimp looks like Oh, I thought you were saying they wouldn't use a crimp to do that.

Why would you think that crimp would look any different from any other crimp holding a bullet into the casing?

I didn't think that. The person you quoted said the mouth of the casing was crimped in a way to suggest a saboted round had been fired from it. That being said, it only makes sense that he meant a sabot crimp looked different than a regular crimp.

So, if the sabot crimp is different, what does it look like?

[Kenneth Drew]

Bullet cannelures are found on most, but not all, bullets. The cannelure is the narrow band around the circumference of the bullet with the little vertical ridges. It is slightly narrower in diameter than the bullet, and many believe it helps lock the core of the bullet to the jacket.

Most bullets are seated into a cartridge until the cannelure is even with the mouth of the cartridge. The mouth of the cartridge is then crimped into the cannelure, as shown below.

Crimping the mouth of the cartridge into the narrower cannelure locks the bullet into position and keeps it from getting pushed further into the cartridge. Interestingly, the Italian military issue 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges were made with a shoulder inside the cartridge mouth at about the point the base of the bullet was seated. This accomplished the same purpose of keeping the bullet in place in the mouth.

However, when the bullet is fired, the larger diameter bullet base passes through this crimp, and stretches it back out to the diameter of the bullet.

This is why I would like to see what the crimp looks like for a saboted bullet, as the diameter of the sabot is always equal to the diameter of a bullet normally fired in the larger rifle.

This is why I would like to see what the crimp looks like Oh, I thought you were saying they wouldn't use a crimp to do that.

Why would you think that crimp would look any different from any other crimp holding a bullet into the casing?

I didn't think that. The person you quoted said the mouth of the casing was crimped in a way to suggest a saboted round had been fired from it. That being said, it only makes sense that he meant a sabot crimp looked different than a regular crimp.

So, if the sabot crimp is different, what does it look like?

So, if the sabot crimp is different, what does it look like? That seems fairly simple from what you've said.

So let's use these numbers. casing opening is 1 thousandth larger than the diameter of the cannelure of the bullet so that when it is crimped the casing is squeezed in 1/1000th. When the cartridge is fired, the back end of the bullet stretches the crimp back out to it's original diameter and the crimp 'vanishes'. Now let's do one for the 'sabot'. casing opening is 3/1000ths larger than the bullet cannelure . the casing is crimped in to seal it at the same 1/1000th cannelure. Then the bullet is fired, only 1/1000 of the crimp would be removed, leaving a 1/1000th crimped edge around the casing. That would certainly look different from a casing that had been entirely straightened out. And that's what it looks like. visualize that bullet just overhead there and remove the bullet but leave that crimp. That's what it would look like

Edited August 20, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Robert Prudhomme]

"So, if the sabot crimp is different, what does it look like? That seems fairly simple from what you've said.

So let's use these numbers. casing opening is 1 thousandth larger than the diameter of the cannelure of the bullet so that when it is crimped the casing is squeezed in 1/1000th. When the cartridge is fired, the back end of the bullet stretches the crimp back out to it's original diameter and the crimp 'vanishes'. Now let's do one for the 'sabot'. casing opening is 3/1000ths larger than the bullet cannelure . the casing is crimped in to seal it at the same 1/1000th cannelure. Then the bullet is fired, only 1/1000 of the crimp would be removed, leaving a 1/1000th crimped edge around the casing. That would certainly look different from a casing that had been entirely straightened out. And that's what it looks like. visualize that bullet just overhead there and remove the bullet but leave that crimp. That's what it would look like"

If that is what happened, they did not use a sabot. What you are describing is loading an undersized bullet into a cartridge and firing it, which would be a complete disaster as far as accuracy is concerned.

Remember what I told you? The sabot MUST be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, or it will not be accurate. If there is not enough room between the smaller bullet and the inside of the barrel of the larger rifle for a sabot to fit, then you simply cannot use these two calibres to deliver a saboted bullet.

[Kenneth Drew]

"So, if the sabot crimp is different, what does it look like? That seems fairly simple from what you've said.

So let's use these numbers. casing opening is 1 thousandth larger than the diameter of the cannelure of the bullet so that when it is crimped the casing is squeezed in 1/1000th. When the cartridge is fired, the back end of the bullet stretches the crimp back out to it's original diameter and the crimp 'vanishes'. Now let's do one for the 'sabot'. casing opening is 3/1000ths larger than the bullet cannelure . the casing is crimped in to seal it at the same 1/1000th cannelure. Then the bullet is fired, only 1/1000 of the crimp would be removed, leaving a 1/1000th crimped edge around the casing. That would certainly look different from a casing that had been entirely straightened out. And that's what it looks like. visualize that bullet just overhead there and remove the bullet but leave that crimp. That's what it would look like"

If that is what happened, they did not use a sabot. What you are describing is loading an undersized bullet into a cartridge and firing it, which would be a complete disaster as far as accuracy is concerned.

Remember what I told you? The sabot MUST be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, or it will not be accurate. If there is not enough room between the smaller bullet and the inside of the barrel of the larger rifle for a sabot to fit, then you simply cannot use these two calibres to deliver a saboted bullet.

This is part of what I quoted:

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of theI

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

They went on to explain that they were saying that the theory was that the 399 had been fired from the larger casing so that the rifling marks on the 399 which were made by a carcano would not be removed, that kinda implies to me that they didn't want the rifling marks on the larger rifle to mess up the existing marks. So I think that they were, in fact, saying that it was deliberately 'an undersized bullet into a cartridge'.

Note that it was stated this way: "The cartridge was supposedly crimped in a way that suggested a sabot round " I'm guessing that they did not expect you to overlook the words, 'supposedlyl' and 'suggested'.

You said: Remember what I told you? The sabot MUST be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, or it will not be accurate. Would that sentence be accurate if it were changed to: Remember what I told you? The sabot DOES NOT HAVE TO be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, AS THE ACCURACY OF THE SHOT IS NOT IMPORTANT.

It seems as if you are making an argument of 'absolutes'. I read the whole story as a casing was found, it had peculiar crimping marks on it, someone guessed as to why it had those peculiar crimping marks and they came up with a 'theory'. I know of no one that has made a claim that they know for sure that 399 was fired as a sabot shot into the limo. In the first place, I've never seen any proof that 399 was ever even in the limo, so that was a guess also.

[Robert Prudhomme]

"So, if the sabot crimp is different, what does it look like? That seems fairly simple from what you've said.

So let's use these numbers. casing opening is 1 thousandth larger than the diameter of the cannelure of the bullet so that when it is crimped the casing is squeezed in 1/1000th. When the cartridge is fired, the back end of the bullet stretches the crimp back out to it's original diameter and the crimp 'vanishes'. Now let's do one for the 'sabot'. casing opening is 3/1000ths larger than the bullet cannelure . the casing is crimped in to seal it at the same 1/1000th cannelure. Then the bullet is fired, only 1/1000 of the crimp would be removed, leaving a 1/1000th crimped edge around the casing. That would certainly look different from a casing that had been entirely straightened out. And that's what it looks like. visualize that bullet just overhead there and remove the bullet but leave that crimp. That's what it would look like"

If that is what happened, they did not use a sabot. What you are describing is loading an undersized bullet into a cartridge and firing it, which would be a complete disaster as far as accuracy is concerned.

Remember what I told you? The sabot MUST be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, or it will not be accurate. If there is not enough room between the smaller bullet and the inside of the barrel of the larger rifle for a sabot to fit, then you simply cannot use these two calibres to deliver a saboted bullet.

This is part of what I quoted:

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of theI

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

They went on to explain that they were saying that the theory was that the 399 had been fired from the larger casing so that the rifling marks on the 399 which were made by a carcano would not be removed, that kinda implies to me that they didn't want the rifling marks on the larger rifle to mess up the existing marks. So I think that they were, in fact, saying that it was deliberately 'an undersized bullet into a cartridge'.

Note that it was stated this way: "The cartridge was supposedly crimped in a way that suggested a sabot round " I'm guessing that they did not expect you to overlook the words, 'supposedlyl' and 'suggested'.

You said: Remember what I told you? The sabot MUST be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, or it will not be accurate. Would that sentence be accurate if it were changed to: Remember what I told you? The sabot DOES NOT HAVE TO be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, AS THE ACCURACY OF THE SHOT IS NOT IMPORTANT.

It seems as if you are making an argument of 'absolutes'. I read the whole story as a casing was found, it had peculiar crimping marks on it, someone guessed as to why it had those peculiar crimping marks and they came up with a 'theory'. I know of no one that has made a claim that they know for sure that 399 was fired as a sabot shot into the limo. In the first place, I've never seen any proof that 399 was ever even in the limo, so that was a guess also.

Okay, that's as far as I go on this. You are arguing things you don't have a clue about. Goodbye.

[Kenneth Drew]

"So, if the sabot crimp is different, what does it look like? That seems fairly simple from what you've said.

So let's use these numbers. casing opening is 1 thousandth larger than the diameter of the cannelure of the bullet so that when it is crimped the casing is squeezed in 1/1000th. When the cartridge is fired, the back end of the bullet stretches the crimp back out to it's original diameter and the crimp 'vanishes'. Now let's do one for the 'sabot'. casing opening is 3/1000ths larger than the bullet cannelure . the casing is crimped in to seal it at the same 1/1000th cannelure. Then the bullet is fired, only 1/1000 of the crimp would be removed, leaving a 1/1000th crimped edge around the casing. That would certainly look different from a casing that had been entirely straightened out. And that's what it looks like. visualize that bullet just overhead there and remove the bullet but leave that crimp. That's what it would look like"

If that is what happened, they did not use a sabot. What you are describing is loading an undersized bullet into a cartridge and firing it, which would be a complete disaster as far as accuracy is concerned.

Remember what I told you? The sabot MUST be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, or it will not be accurate. If there is not enough room between the smaller bullet and the inside of the barrel of the larger rifle for a sabot to fit, then you simply cannot use these two calibres to deliver a saboted bullet.

This is part of what I quoted:

The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (

as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the

rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in

a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of theI

cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"

They went on to explain that they were saying that the theory was that the 399 had been fired from the larger casing so that the rifling marks on the 399 which were made by a carcano would not be removed, that kinda implies to me that they didn't want the rifling marks on the larger rifle to mess up the existing marks. So I think that they were, in fact, saying that it was deliberately 'an undersized bullet into a cartridge'.

Note that it was stated this way: "The cartridge was supposedly crimped in a way that suggested a sabot round " I'm guessing that they did not expect you to overlook the words, 'supposedlyl' and 'suggested'.

You said: Remember what I told you? The sabot MUST be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, or it will not be accurate. Would that sentence be accurate if it were changed to: Remember what I told you? The sabot DOES NOT HAVE TO be the same diameter as the bullet that would normally be fired from the larger rifle, AS THE ACCURACY OF THE SHOT IS NOT IMPORTANT.

It seems as if you are making an argument of 'absolutes'. I read the whole story as a casing was found, it had peculiar crimping marks on it, someone guessed as to why it had those peculiar crimping marks and they came up with a 'theory'. I know of no one that has made a claim that they know for sure that 399 was fired as a sabot shot into the limo. In the first place, I've never seen any proof that 399 was ever even in the limo, so that was a guess also.

Okay, that's as far as I go on this. You are arguing things you don't have a clue about. Goodbye.

Well darn Robert, With you bowing out, I guess we'll never know whether that casing found on the records building roof with supposedly a crimp might be the ultimate link to who was shooting at JFK. I guess we'll have to see if we can get an opinion from Mike.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Kenneth Drew