Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

[Chris Davidson]

So, there is a distinct possibility the woman seen running in Darnell/Couch is not Gloria Calvery

Robert,

I agree.

[Chris Davidson]

Not to confuse the issue further, but, since June Dishong was among the woman standing among Gloria Calvery's group, not that they necessarily knew each other, as Dishong worked for a different company than the four other women, I think this lends support to at least the physical position of Calvery on Elm St.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1070

[Clive Largey]

"On one of your recent points.

I myself have no problem with statements not matching, or matching the films, quite the opposite, it's exactly what I've come to expect and why would they match anyway? Who says they are supposed to Robert?"

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying it is your experience that people generally lie when giving statements?

Robert, forget "lying",

who told you witness recollection is reliable in circumstances like these?

If no one did and you just assumed it was, then try finding one respectable academic source that supports you.

I'm no veteran.

This and two other cases, started looking at another big one this year.

[Clive Largey]

I found out who wrote Gloria Calvery's memorial at the Find a Grave website.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=calvery&GSfn=gloria+&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=149407954&df=all&

Look near the bottom where it says "Created by:"

Well since I commented on it yesterday.

That part you referred to previously was a bit premature but overall that's a pretty cool thing for Linda to do.

[Kenneth Drew]

This is an interesting thread, I'm still waiting for someone to say why it matters. I'll bet that Gloria Calvery was not involved in the conspiracy and didn't know anything about it other than what she saw in Dealey Plaza that day. This whole discussion is about where she was standing and what she did. Seems as if there are several stories, but regardless of which version, if either, is true, it's not going to reveal the 'plot' to 'Who shot John".

[Thomas Graves]

Slightly off topic but. I was looking at your blowup of the Altgens 6 photo again

https://willyloman.f...-best-proc1.jpg and I can't get over how Hardhat Man is looking back up the street at something. I can also see now that three of the black women on the sidewalk are looking in the same direction, as well as the two SS agents on the side of the follow up car.

Yes, as is one of the two khaki-dressed guys standing in front of the TSBD in Wiegman, you know, the two guys previously misidentified as "Truly and Campbell"? One of them looks back toward the front entrance about the same time as A.J. Millican does. Maybe they and the black women all heard the silenced shot.

Regarding the two-frame Wiegman gif, in the frame with the car, the guy I'm talking about is visible above the driver's side window and he's looking straight ahead at the motorcade. In the frame without the car, the same guy is shown a few seconds later, after at least the first shot has been fired, and he's looking at the front entrance / steps of the TSBD.

[i'm having problems posting the gif here]

--Tommy

Edited September 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Good find, Thomas! That woman looks more like Gloria Calvery than any of the candidates so far. Too bad all of the other photos aren't in colour; that red plaid skirt would be easy to spot.

When I look at this photo and the Altgens photo, I'm reminded of just how small a place Dealey Plaza is, and how quickly a running person could have made it from the lamp post up to the TSBD steps.

I don't think we can conclusively say the figure above is Gloria Calvery yet. Mary Woodward was wearing a light coloured (white?) blouse, as well, and this could be her we see here. I thought she was wearing a "Stars and Stripes" theme skirt at first, until I realized I was looking at the flag on the front corner of the limo in the Altgens 6 photo.

Any way you could enlarge the Altgens 6 photo again to get a closer look at Woodwards' skirt?

Here is the Couch clip from which the above frame was taken. In the clip you can see the woman with the white blouse near A. J. Millican stepping up on the curb from the street.

"Running Woman," of course, has already been caught on film by Couch's own camera.

--Tommy

Edited September 2, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Well, although I am not 100% convinced the running woman in Darnell/Couch is not Gloria Calvery, there seems to be a very strong possibility it is another woman.

In that case, we should re-examine the events that seem to be tied to Baker entering the TSBD.

If Calvery did not immediately return to the TSBD steps, it is just possible that Shelley and Lovelady were telling the truth when they testified to the WC that they remained on the steps of the TSBD, following the last shot, for 3-4 minutes, and did NOT leave the steps until Gloria Calvery returned to the steps with news of the assassination.

As Joe Molina testified, he wandered down to the "grassy slope" after the last shot, returned to the TSBD and loitered in the lobby. It was here he met Calvery coming into the building, with another woman. The timing of this meeting is, of course, totally separate from the timing of her return from down by the Stemmons sign, as she could have stood outside of the TSBD entrance for any amount of time before entering the building.

Once Shelley and Lovelady finished talking to Gloria Calvery, they set out down the Elm St. extension for the rail yard, looking back after 25 steps to see Truly and Baker ascending the steps of the TSBD.

Everything could work and everyone could be telling the truth EXCEPT for the fact that Baker testified to entering the front of the TSBD 20 seconds after the final shot. His story is the fly in the ointment that is out of sync with all of the witnesses and, of course, his 2nd floor meeting with Oswald is crucial to the lone assassin descending from the 6th floor.

Considering that no witness saw Baker go into the TSBD within 20 seconds of the last shot (Pauline Sanders is quoted, in an FBI report, as saying she saw Baker enter the TSBD, but you know what I think about FBI "statements"), the Darnell/Couch film does not actually show Baker going up the stairs and Truly tells a very questionable tale of how he was borne back to the stairs by a sea of people that congealed around him (and no one else it seems!), I believe attention should be focused again on Baker's story, and just when it was he entered the TSBD.

We should also focus on Shelley's and Lovelady's first day statements to see just how much difference there is between them and their WC testimonies.

[Thomas Graves]

PS It's always possible that Lovelady and Shelley only thought it was Gloria Calvery who was running past them yelling "The President's been shot!" as they walked down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot a few seconds after the assassination. The fact that they misidentified Calvery or created the Calvery story out of whole cloth (dummies -- why even mention her at all, Bill Shelley? -- because since you'd been "best man" at her wedding you figured she'd prevaricate for you?) argues for the fact that they'd only gotten a glimpse of Running Woman -- mistaking her for Gloria Calvery -- in passing, and that they didn't talk with either of them on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination or on the steps some three minutes (as Lovelady said) after it. William Shelley blew it when he mentioned Calvery's name in his 11/22/63 statement, but the half-truth he did tell is fascinating-- that he [and the unmentioned Lovelady] left the steps right away and "encountered Calvery" -- the streaking-past-them-Running Woman] "on" / near / across from the "island" as they were walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard. Little (pardon the pun) did they know that some fifty years later some guys and gals on the Internet would figure out that they had left the steps almost immediately after the shooting, and that the screaming, running woman they thought was Gloria Calvery really wasn't Calvery after all. And that we would eventually figure out that they had lied, Lovelady in particular, in order to twist Vicki Adam's story in such a way as to give Oswald enough time to sneak down the stairs without being seen by Adams and Styles.

Shelley's typed 11/22/63 affidavit. In it he says he ran across to the "corner of the park" (i.e., the "island") and encountered a crying Gloria Calvery there who told him the President had been shot. He says he went back inside the building and called his wife and was then told to guard the elevator on the first floor, but that he left it in charge of Jack Dougherty and went up to the upper floors with some police officers.

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337377/m1/1/

In his first affidavit (handwritten) of 11/22/63, Lovelady says nothing about leaving the steps and walking / running down to "the corner of the park" or the railway yard / parking lot, nor anything about Gloria Calvery. Just, "After it was over we went back inside the building and went to work. [sic] took some police officers up to search the building."

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338698/m1/1/?q=lovelady

Lovelady's second affidavit (typed) of 11/22/63 said the same, except in it he says "We went back inside the building and I took some policemen up to search the building." Still nothing about leaving the front steps and walking / running down to the railway yard. Nor anything about encountering Gloria Calvery on or near the "island." Lovelady didn't mention any of that until he gave his WC testimony about half a year later.

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338214/m1/1/?q=lovelady

From Lovelady's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah. ["Yeah" sounds like a prevarication here. Why not, "Yes", "Right", or "Yes, sir" like all of his other affirmative answers? This is the only "yeah" in his testimony.]
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL - That's all?
Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?
Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL - I am?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.
Mr. BALL - Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL - That's south.
Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?

[excellent question, Mr. Ball, but you shoulda then asked Billy, "Why did you even bring her name up before I asked you, you big dummy, and why wouldn't you swear it was her -- afraid of perjuring yourself, are you? -- Who told you it was Vicki, anyway? -- Shelley? Bill Decker? Joe Civello?]

--Tommy

Edit: As though Lovelady would have timed, with his watch, how long it took Gloria Calvery to run up to him and Shelley on the steps if he had had a watch. What a lame response to Ball's statement, "Three minutes is a long time." LOL !

Likewise, what lame excuses by Lovelady for "not noticing" whether or not people had started running by the time Calvery came up to them. What a p-r-e-v-a-r-i-c-a-t-o-r Lovelady is!

Edited September 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

"PS It's always possible that Lovelady and Shelley only thought it was Gloria Calvery who was running past them yelling "The President's been shot!" as they walked down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot a few seconds after the assassination. The fact that they misidentified Calvery or created the Calvery story out of whole cloth (dummies -- why even mention her at all, Bill Shelley? -- because since you'd been "best man" at her wedding you figured she'd prevaricate for you?) argues for the fact that they'd only gotten a glimpse of her (Running Woman -- mistaking her for Gloria Calvery) in passing, and that they didn't talk with Calvery or Running Woman on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination or on the steps some three minutes (as Lovelady intimated) after it. William Shelley blew it when he mentioned Calvery's name in his 11/22/63 statement, but the half-truth he did tell is fascinating-- that he [and the unmentioned Lovelady] left the steps right away and encountered "Calvery" [actually Running Woman] near / across from the "island" as they were walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard. Little (pardon the pun) did they know that some fifty years later some guys and gals on the Internet would figure out that they had left the steps almost immediately after the shooting, and that the screaming, running woman they thought was Gloria Calvery really wasn't her after all. And that we would eventually figure out that they had lied, Lovelady in particular, in order to twist Vicki Adam's story in such a way as to give Oswald enough time to sneak down the stairs without being seen by Adams and Styles."

Thomas

On what do you base your belief that Shelley and Lovelady learned of the assassination from a screaming woman running by them on the Elm St. extension whom you believe they misidentified as Gloria Calvery? From both their first day statements and their WC testimony, it is quite clear they engaged Ms. Calvery, up close and personal, in conversation; whether it was on the steps or the concrete island. Can we not stick to what we have to work with? Gloria Calvery seems to be the one constant in their stories that does not change.It is possible Lovelady and Shelley lied about the timing of events but, the evidence points much more strongly toward Baker being the one who lied about the time.

[Robert Prudhomme]

The fact of the matter is, unless we subscribe to your "running screaming woman" being misidentified by Shelley as Calvery, we have to accept that:

1) Calvery arrived at the concrete island before Shelley and Lovelady, and they stopped and spoke to her there. This is not unreasonable, as it is a very short distance from where she viewed the assassination to the concrete island. S & L would have been a little delayed leaving the steps, as they would not have had full knowledge of the event.

2) Calvery really did take 3-4 minutes to arrive at the TSBD steps, and S & L are telling the truth about not leaving the steps until they had conversed with her.

Either way, there is simply no way they could have been 25 steps down the Elm St. extension and have looked back to see Truly and Baker entering the building. Baker would have been inside the building about the time Calvery would have arrived at the concrete island. As I said before, the "discovery" of Shelley and Lovelady, in the Darnell/Couch film, walking down the Elm St. extension is a cheap trick courtesy of Duncan MacRae's forum that takes advantage of one still from the film. This still makes it appear that "Shelley" and "Lovelady" are walking side by side. Once you see them in the film, it is clear that one man catches up to and passes the other man without so much as a glance of recognition. They are obviously not together.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

"PS It's always possible that Lovelady and Shelley only thought it was Gloria Calvery who was running past them yelling "The President's been shot!" as they walked down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot a few seconds after the assassination. The fact that they misidentified Calvery or created the Calvery story out of whole cloth (dummies -- why even mention her at all, Bill Shelley? -- because since you'd been "best man" at her wedding you figured she'd prevaricate for you?) argues for the fact that they'd only gotten a glimpse of her (Running Woman -- mistaking her for Gloria Calvery) in passing, and that they didn't talk with Calvery or Running Woman on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination or on the steps some three minutes (as Lovelady intimated) after it. William Shelley blew it when he mentioned Calvery's name in his 11/22/63 statement, but the half-truth he did tell is fascinating-- that he [and the unmentioned Lovelady] left the steps right away and encountered "Calvery" [actually Running Woman] near / across from the "island" as they were walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard. Little (pardon the pun) did they know that some fifty years later some guys and gals on the Internet would figure out that they had left the steps almost immediately after the shooting, and that the screaming, running woman they thought was Gloria Calvery really wasn't her after all. And that we would eventually figure out that they had lied, Lovelady in particular, in order to twist Vicki Adam's story in such a way as to give Oswald enough time to sneak down the stairs without being seen by Adams and Styles."

Thomas

On what do you base your belief that Shelley and Lovelady learned of the assassination from a screaming woman running by them on the Elm St. extension whom you believe they misidentified as Gloria Calvery? From both their first day statements and their WC testimony, it is quite clear they engaged Ms. Calvery, up close and personal, in conversation; whether it was on the steps or the concrete island. Can we not stick to what we have to work with? Gloria Calvery seems to be the one constant in their stories that does not change.It is possible Lovelady and Shelley lied about the timing of events but, the evidence points much more strongly toward Baker being the one who lied about the time.

Bob, I haven't even read your whole "reply" yet, just the first sentence -- a rhetorical question which kinda irks me.

Where in the heck did I say that that's how they found out / learned of the assassination? If anything, I said that's how Shelley said he'd "learned of" the assassination -- from an encounter with a woman [he thought was?] "Gloria Calvery" "on the corner of the park" (i.e., near the "island"?). Are we gonna quibble about everything, Bob? If so, I'm outta here. I get the feeling that most of what I say doesn't jibe with some grand theory of yours which you are for some reason loath to elaborate upon at this forum. Don't you like the idea of my trying to "spin" or interpret the evidence in such a way as to support those students and researchers who believe that Lovelady and Shelley prevaricated at different times and in different ways, with the ultimate effect of "giving" Oswald enough time, before Adams' and Styles' belated "coming down to the first floor and talking with Shelley there", to run down from the sixth floor to the second floor lunch room for his timely encounter with Baker and Truly?

I'm outta here for a few minutes. Maybe I'll even read the rest of your reply now.

I may even come back and say "My bad. I'm sorry. I should have read you whole rhetorical reply." LOL

--Tommy

OK I've read all of it now, and ... no apologies.

You make a mistake in your second sentence when you say "From both of their first day statements ..." [emphasis added]. Fact is, only "best man" Shelley said anything about Calvery in his 11/22/63 affidavit. Lovelady said nothing about Calvery in either of his. In both of them he says, "After it was over we went back inside the building." Did he make a third or a fourth statement (affidavit) on 11/22/63 of which I am blissfully unaware, Bob?

Since you don't think Shelley and Lovelady were "captured" walking down the Elm Street Extension in Couch / Darnell, do you instead believe that Lovelady was telling the truth when he said "After it was over we went back inside the building and went to work [sic] took some policemen upstairs to search the building"? Or that Shelley was telling the truth when he said he spoke with Gloria Calvery "on the corner of the park" and then, instead of walking down to the railway yard / parking lot with Lovelady, went back inside and called his wife and then was told to guard the elevator on the first floor but turned the job over to "slow-but-loyal-and-reliable" Jack Dougherty, instead, and proceeded to take some police officers upstairs?

What do you think Lovelady and Shelley did right after the shooting, Bob? Went back to work / Took some policemen upstairs or guarded the elevators or twiddled their thumbs for three minutes on the front steps (although they apparently weren't captured in any photographs or films) and then walked down to the railway yard / parking lot and returned to the TSBD and entered it through a back door to find Vicki Adams there?

Maybe we can "tweak" enough things to make one of these "work."

Just curious as to what you believe, Bob. Thanks.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

The fact of the matter is, unless we subscribe to your "running screaming woman" being misidentified by Shelley as Calvery, we have to accept that:

1) Calvery arrived at the concrete island before Shelley and Lovelady, and they stopped and spoke to her there. This is not unreasonable, as it is a very short distance from where she viewed the assassination to the concrete island. S & L would have been a little delayed leaving the steps, as they would not have had full knowledge of the event.

2) Calvery really did take 3-4 minutes to arrive at the TSBD steps, and S & L are telling the truth about not leaving the steps until they had conversed with her.

Either way, there is simply no way they could have been 25 steps down the Elm St. extension and have looked back to see Truly and Baker entering the building. Baker would have been inside the building about the time Calvery would have arrived at the concrete island. As I said before, the "discovery" of Shelley and Lovelady, in the Darnell/Couch film, walking down the Elm St. extension is a cheap trick courtesy of Duncan MacRae's forum that takes advantage of one still from the film. This still makes it appear that "Shelley" and "Lovelady" are walking side by side. Once you see them in the film, it is clear that one man catches up to and passes the other man without so much as a glance of recognition. They are obviously not together.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

I respectfully disagree, Bob.

They are walking side by side at the very beginning, and then "Lovelady" takes off and starts running when "Running Woman" is almost upon them.

The situation: The handsome, charismatic President has just had his head blown off in an open convertible about fifty yards down the street. People are yelling and screaming and falling on the ground. "Running Woman" (whoever she is) is running like crazy in the opposite direction from where most people will soon be running to -- the far corner of the Grassy Knoll where it butts up against the Triple Overpass, or to the railway yard / parking lot. It's reasonable to assume that this Running Woman, whoever she is, has seen something traumatic / frightening associated with the firecrackers / gunshots heard by everybody right before the screaming and yelling started. It's also reasonable to assume that she may have conveyed something about her traumatic / frightening experience, perhaps even in a loud voice, as she ran across / down the Elm Street Extension. Given the timing and the situation, it's most reasonable to assume that something she said, or just the fact that she was running like that, motivated "Lovelady" to start running towards the railway yard parking lot, leaving his buddy (whom I believe to be Shelley) temporarily behind. Interestingly enough, note that "Shelley," too, seems to lean forward and "pick up the pace" right after that.

I could go on and on, Bob.

Suffice it to say that I disagree with you as to whether or not Shelley and Lovelady were "captured" while walking / running down Elm Street Extension for a very few seconds in Couch Darnell. You say "no." I say "yes." And we will never change each other's opinion, unless we can come up with some new photographic "proof" or "disproof." Where would you like to have Shelley and Lovelady this time? I have looked at this part of Couch / Darnell over and over again. I've found that it's best when I look at it "blown up" and in slow motion, because only then can I "only just" make out not only Lovelady's distinctive short-but-husky stature, the sunlight shining on his bald forehead, his long sideburns, and his generally-receding hairline, but also Shelley's white shirt collar above his dark suit, his thin physique, and his distinctive turned-up-in-the-front "hairdo." If you are patient and you look very closely (like you did when I told you where to look for that tiny bit of Gloria Calvery's face behind Aurelia Alonzo's head -- remember?), you can see these things, too. Since it's a film clip instead of a static photo, you'll probably have to look at it over and over and over again, as I did. Are you willing to do that, Bob, and at least try to see what I'm trying to point out to you?

Edit: It looks like "Shelley" pulls up a little (slows down; stands up straighter) as Running Woman gets close to them, as though he wants to look at her closely and hear anything she might have to say, or maybe ask her a quick "yes or no" question, and please note how he then leans his body forward a bit and starts running, too. What's interesting is how Running Woman seems to "pull up" some, too, if only for a split second, and seems to glance at them when her head is between theirs.

Credit: Gerda Dunckel

I'm sorry if this doesn't fit in with some theory of yours. Not trying to sound sarcastic.

BTW, Why do you believe so much of what Shelley and Lovelady said and changed so many times?

In his affidavit Shelley said he talked with Calvery on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination, but in his WC testimony he sang a different tune and said that she "ran back up there [to the steps] crying and said 'The President has been shot" three or four minutes after the assassination, and that he and Lovelady then walked to the "island" from which point they turned and saw Truly and Baker near the front of the TSBD..

Lovelady didn't mention Calvery in either of his affidavits, nor did he say anything about walking with Shelley down to the parking lot, but did say in his WC testimony that they spoke with her when she came up to them on the steps about three minutes after the assassination.

Which version of theirs do you want to believe in, and which versions do you want to discount?

What is it that you don't believe about Baker's "timing" -- too long, too short?

What about the photographic evidence of Couch / Darnell, including that part of Couch which seems to show the red-dress-wearing "Gloria Calvery" still down on Elm Street by A.J. Millican while Running Woman is running down or across Elm Street Extension, and Marion Baker is running towards the front steps of the TSBD?

--Tommy

PS I'm always leery when anyone on an assassination forum says "Obviously."

Edited September 2, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

The fact of the matter is, unless we subscribe to your "running screaming woman" being misidentified by Shelley as Calvery, we have to accept that:

1) Calvery arrived at the concrete island before Shelley and Lovelady, and they stopped and spoke to her there. This is not unreasonable, as it is a very short distance from where she viewed the assassination to the concrete island. S & L would have been a little delayed leaving the steps, as they would not have had full knowledge of the event.

2) Calvery really did take 3-4 minutes to arrive at the TSBD steps, and S & L are telling the truth about not leaving the steps until they had conversed with her.

Either way, there is simply no way they could have been 25 steps down the Elm St. extension and have looked back to see Truly and Baker entering the building. Baker would have been inside the building about the time Calvery would have arrived at the concrete island. As I said before, the "discovery" of Shelley and Lovelady, in the Darnell/Couch film, walking down the Elm St. extension is a cheap trick courtesy of Duncan MacRae's forum that takes advantage of one still from the film. This still makes it appear that "Shelley" and "Lovelady" are walking side by side. Once you see them in the film, it is clear that one man catches up to and passes the other man without so much as a glance of recognition. They are obviously not together.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

I respectfully disagree, Bob.

They are walking side by side at the very beginning, and then "Lovelady" takes off and starts running when "Running Woman" is almost upon them.

The situation: The handsome, charismatic President has just had his head blown off in an open convertible about fifty yards down the street. People are yelling and screaming and falling on the ground. "Running Woman" (whoever she is) is running like crazy in the opposite direction from where most people will soon be running to -- the far corner of the Grassy Knoll where it butts up against the Triple Overpass, or to the railway yard / parking lot. It's reasonable to assume that this Running Woman, whoever she is, has seen something traumatic / frightening associated with the firecrackers / gunshots heard by everybody right before the screaming and yelling started. It's also reasonable to assume that she may have conveyed something about her traumatic / frightening experience, perhaps even in a loud voice, as she ran across / down the Elm Street Extension. Given the timing and the situation, it's most reasonable to assume that something she said, or just the fact that she was running like that, motivated "Lovelady" to start running towards the railway yard parking lot, leaving his buddy (whom I believe to be Shelley) temporarily behind. Interestingly enough, note that "Shelley," too, seems to lean forward and "pick up the pace" right after that.

I could go on and on, Bob.

Suffice it to say that I disagree with you as to whether or not Shelley and Lovelady were "captured" while walking / running down Elm Street Extension for a very few seconds in Couch Darnell. You say "no." I say "yes." And we will never change each other's opinion, unless we can come up with some new photographic "proof" or "disproof." Where would you like to have Shelley and Lovelady this time? I have looked at this part of Couch / Darnell over and over again. I've found that it's best when I look at it "blown up" and in slow motion, because only then can I "only just" make out not only Lovelady's distinctive short-but-husky stature, the sunlight shining on his bald forehead, his long sideburns, and his generally-receding hairline, but also Shelley's white shirt collar above his dark suit, his thin physique, and his distinctive turned-up-in-the-front "hairdo." If you are patient and you look very closely (like you did when I told you where to look for that tiny bit of Gloria Calvery's face behind Aurelia Alonzo's head -- remember?), you can see these things, too. Since it's a film clip instead of a static photo, you'll probably have to look at it over and over and over again, as I did. Are you willing to do that, Bob, and at least try to see what I'm trying to point out to you?

Edit: It looks like "Shelley" pulls up a little (slows down; stands up straighter) as Running Woman gets close to them, as though he wants to look at her closely and hear anything she might have to say, or maybe ask her a quick "yes or no" question, and please note how he then leans his body forward a bit and starts running, too. What's interesting is how Running Woman seems to "pull up" some, too, if only for a split second, and seems to glance at them when her head is between theirs.

Credit: Gerda Dunckel

I'm sorry if this doesn't fit in with some theory of yours. Not trying to sound sarcastic.

BTW, Why do you believe so much of what Shelley and Lovelady said and changed so many times?

In his affidavit Shelley said he talked with Calvery on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination, but in his WC testimony he sang a different tune and said that she "ran back up there [to the steps] crying and said 'The President has been shot" three or four minutes after the assassination, and that he and Lovelady then walked to the "island" from which point they turned and saw Truly and Baker near the front of the TSBD..

Lovelady didn't mention Calvery in either of his affidavits, nor did he say anything about walking with Shelley down to the parking lot, but did say in his WC testimony that they spoke with her when she came up to them on the steps about three minutes after the assassination.

Which version of theirs do you want to believe in, and which versions do you want to discount?

What is it that you don't believe about Baker's "timing" -- too long, too short?

What about the photographic evidence of Couch / Darnell, including that part of Couch which seems to show the red-dress-wearing "Gloria Calvery" still down on Elm Street by A.J. Millican while Running Woman is running down or across Elm Street Extension, and Marion Baker is running towards the front steps of the TSBD?

--Tommy

PS I'm always leery when anyone on an assassination forum says "Obviously."

Edited and bumped

Isn't anyone besides Robert, Chris, Clive, and myself interested in this thread? What do others think -- Were Shelley and Lovelady "captured" in Couch / Darnell as they walked / ran down Elm Street Extension? Yes or No? Don't be shy.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

If we want to pick and choose what we will believe from a witness, I believe the smartest thing to do is to go with the earliest statement or testimony possible. Not only is the event freshest in the mind of the eyewitness at this point but, in this particular case, the coverup had not gotten into full swing when statements were taken from Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, and the testimony or statement they give at this time has the best chance of being closest to the truth.

Examining Shelley's and Lovelady's affidavits, the first thing that stands out is that neither of them say a word about walking down the Elm St. extension to the rail yard. Shelley is the only one of the two to even say he left the steps, and that was only to go out to the concrete island. It was at this concrete island, according to his affidavit, he met Gloria Calvery, who, through her tears, told him the President had been shot. Did he misidentify her? I hardly think so, as he had been the best man at her wedding just a few months previous. From here, Shelley claims to have gone back into the building to phone his wife BUT, he does not say who he went back in with or even if he went back in with someone.

Lovelady, in his statement, does not say that he left the steps at all, only that, after it was all over, "...we went back into the building...." Does he say he went back into the building with Shelley? No, he does not, and the "we" could have been referring to any number of people he was on the steps with.

The question we have to ask ourselves is this. If we believe their first day statements to be lies, what possible reason could they have to perjure themselves at this point in time?

If we go with the belief that first day statements are more reliable, Shelley's and Lovelady's trip to the rail yard was a fabrication, and the two fellows seen in the Darnell/Couch film are not Shelley and Lovelady. This, of course, also seriously puts into question whether the running woman was Gloria Calvery. It does, though, bring us that much closer to derailing the 2nd floor lunch room encounter between Baker and Oswald.

.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme