Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 32
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Roger and others: Here is the youtube clip of the turn onto Elm.

https://youtu.be/l2rEBLFih7M

About the head shot: It was described as a big white substance going up in the air and then the gory part was

shown on an Internet radio show. The blood is redder and Jackie is face to face with John Kennedy, her left

arm over his right shoulder. I will try to find it, but in the frames I saw there was no white (halo). Robert

Morningstar says he has the missing frames of Zapruder.

One important thing. The film is shot from behind Zapruder and from a higher area close by. I cannot figure

where this cameraman was standing.

Kathy C

Well, unless all the people lined up waving excitedly on the kerb suddenly ran out of shot and were replaced by a completely different set of onlookers, the brief clip purporting to be the turn onto Elm is a re-creation and not a part of Zapruder's original film.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 8 months later...
  • 2 years later...
On 9/9/2015 at 1:06 PM, David Josephs said:

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street.
Mr. LIEBELER - That's the Secret Service?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - The Secret Service--I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people.

 

Army plane?  What army plane?

Who in the Secret Service would have told Zapruder to send anything by way of the Army? Who in the Army would Zapruder have talked to to send anything on an Army plane?

 

Steve Thomas

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Army plane?  What army plane?

Who in the Secret Service would have told Zapruder to send anything by way of the Army? Who in the Army would Zapruder have talked to to send anything on an Army plane?

 

Steve Thomas

And completely disregards Max Phillips

Ths zfilm timeline says this though....  Army doesn’t fly out of Naval bases, do they?

10:00 pm

Schwartz and Zapruder delivered two prints to Sorrels. Sorrels asked them to take one to the Dallas Naval Air Station in nearby Grand Prairie, where a jet was immediately dispatched to take the print to FBI investigators in Washington, D.C.

 


Mr. LIEBELER - Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street.
Mr. LIEBELER - That's the Secret Service?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - The Secret Service--I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people.

59a980da874fb_MaxPhillipsnotetoRowley-BESTcopy-withtypedtext-cropped.jpg.570b6e800e387ec4a2aead5671452fc7.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 6:36 PM, David Josephs said:

Indeed Mark...  Look at the size of the little tree on the south side of Elm.   Looks like a reenactment of some sort....

and yes, the sidewalk witnesses are not the same at all

 

If it helps to see what is being talked about.

a-reenactment-not-zapruder-as-known.jpg

Which reenactment would this be?  Can anyone identify exactly what this film is?  Or, is this an unknown photographer? (I favor reenactment, but still need to ask)  There were many out and about that day.  Just survey the existing record of photos and films and you will see many unknowns.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree this is a re-enactment and although there are limited direct references online I would suggest it is the video component of an art installation entitled The Eternal Flame 

'The Eternal Frame is an installation which recreates a typical living room space from 1960s America, complete with sofas, standard lamp, carpet and wallpaper. Two sofas are arranged around a television set and the walls are covered with memorabilia relating to American President John F. Kennedy. Produced as a collaboration between two key California collectives of the time, Ant Farm and T.R. Uthco, the video, screened on the television, re-enacts the assassination of President Kennedy in Dallas on 22 November 1963 as a critical examination of the role played by the media in the creation of historical spectacle and myth. The installation takes as its starting point an excerpt from the only filmed record of Kennedy’s assassination: Super-8 footage shot by Abraham Zapruder, a bystander on the parade route. These now iconic few frames of film are transformed in The Eternal Frame into a dark, brutally direct, multi-layered event that is simultaneously a live performance spectacle, a taped re-enactment of the assassination, a mock documentary, and a simulation of the Zapruder film itself. Performed in Dealey Plaza in Dallas — the actual site of the assassination — twelve years after the event, the re-enactment elicits bizarre responses from its spectators, who react to the simulation as though it were the original assassination'

.https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/t-r-uthco-ant-farm-the-eternal-frame-t138

I would also suggest it is the source of numerous claims of alterations to the Zapruder film, the existence of other films of the assassination and quotes made about the events of that day 

further details at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Frame

https://fridaynightboys300.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-zapruder-film-jfk-conspiracies-and.html

https://aksioma.org/eternalframe_mediaburn/index.html

http://www.eai.org/titles/4109

http://www.artperformance.org/article-23587594.html

https://arttorrents.blogspot.com/2008/02/ant-farm-eternal-frame-1976.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have looked at all of the reenactments I can find and nothing looks like the film in question.  At best the film can be described as Zapruderesque.  But, it is not the Zapruder film.  I can see no one has identified the background information on this film.  So, it is open to speculation.

reenactment-film-frame-maybe-z-002.jpg 

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 3:54 AM, Kathleen Collins said:

The buildings in back of the cars are not the buildings of Dealey Plaza. 

Kathy C 

But, some are.  They are somewhat different in appearance.  I don't know what that means.  The buildings on east Elm are the Purse Building and two others.  In Zapruder we see the Purse Building and one other, a small building, and then behind that a reddish building.  The Court Records Building is prominent in both.

The Purse Building in both films has a different slightly different appearance suggesting there is some time between these films.  It also suggests that the photographers were at different filming locations.  In the film in question you can see further east on Elm Street.  But, the Dal-Tex and TSBD are missing.  This might suggest that the right hand side of the film has been cropped.  I am sure that others with a better sense of photography can verify or reject that. 

In the Zapruder frame there are road signs across Elm Street and those are not in the other film.  The red light is clearly visible in Zapruder, but not so discernible in the other film.  It may be there, but I am distracted by what appears to be a face in the air.  Once seen, it is difficult to unsee and is a distraction to what is in that area.

The crowds are not the same.  Particularly, the group known as Mannequin Row.  The Lead Car seems to be correct as a white, 4 door, 1961 Mercury Monterrey.  Seeing the Lead Car says this scene is in the Zapruder Gap.  (At least one can think that is so.  But, maybe not.)

So, all things considered it is not a reenactment as indicated by other reenactment films.  It appears to be a reconstruction or manufacture of the scene of the presidential motorcade turning onto to Elm Street built from different scenes acquired elsewhere.

Unless someone can provide better information on this film, I would dismiss it as having any significance to anything.

Edited by John Butler
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Unless someone can provide better information on this film, I would dismiss it as having any significance to anything.

Hey there John...   To me it appears like a re-enactment, or a rehearsal for one of the many movies about the time period...

Here is an actual Zframe reduced in size to show you what I mean...

The lens seems a bit less telephoto than Zapruder's who said he was on full zoom... and the location of the photographer must be further to Zapruder's left and behind?

On 1/22/2020 at 12:54 AM, Kathleen Collins said:

The buildings in back of the cars are not the buildings of Dealey Plaza. 

Kathy C

I actually think the building with 3 windows in 1963 was changed over the next couple of years....

The new image John posted looks to me like a movie scene runthru...  

FWIW - DJ

 

Building-windows-disappear.gif.0e56aa6a4d8fb305edd3e8d05378a116.gif

 

1591633350_DifferentangleofZapfilmfromfurtherbackordifferentzoom.thumb.jpg.dd26175574fb451e1a2c26acb4d82931.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

In Dj's  black and white photo above showing the green arrows, the background has definitely been overpainted, thus blanking out the three vertical windows shown in the Z film. I wonder why.

In the black and white photo the camera was higher than Zapruder's camera.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Hey there John...   To me it appears like a re-enactment, or a rehearsal for one of the many movies about the time period...

Here is an actual Zframe reduced in size to show you what I mean...

The lens seems a bit less telephoto than Zapruder's who said he was on full zoom... and the location of the photographer must be further to Zapruder's left and behind?

I actually think the building with 3 windows in 1963 was changed over the next couple of years....

The new image John posted looks to me like a movie scene runthru...  

FWIW - DJ

 

Building-windows-disappear.gif.0e56aa6a4d8fb305edd3e8d05378a116.gif

 

1591633350_DifferentangleofZapfilmfromfurtherbackordifferentzoom.thumb.jpg.dd26175574fb451e1a2c26acb4d82931.jpg

Thanks David,

I always read your comments.  There's always something new and interesting such as below.  A different way to look at things.

Capture-david-josephs-scene.jpg

In that particular film in question the road signs at the intersection of Houston and Elm are missing.  Any notion why?

Edited by John Butler
Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a detailed history of reconstructions/ reenactments here

https://jfk007.com/tragedy-restaged/

on closer examination the original thread clip appears to be a detailed reenactment with the lead car, motorcycles and follow up car visible, and thus my initial thought that it is from The Eternal Flame of 1975 is incorrect, as although they had lots of different footage from at least 17 versions of their reenactment, they did not have these props

it is clear that the film clip at the beginning of this thread comes from Stones JFK  - which is a compilation of footage both real and re enacted - see from 0.36

from looking at the clips from the rest of JFK below I would now suggest that original thread clip is part of footage re created by Stone from multiple cameras, angles, heights and locations in the plaza  - see from 1.20

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...