Prayer Man is a Man

[Greg Doudna]

5 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

The firing range incidents seem to be the only direct connection to being the shooter? Hastily arranged less than two weeks before, mentioning JFK specifically and showcasing the old MC rifle.

Sean, the Sports Drome "Oswald" sightings are a red herring. There is no evidence the person some later thought had been Oswald, claimed to be or sought to be identified as Oswald, and apart from a similarity in the rifle and physical description, there is no evidence that person was either Oswald or an Oswald impersonator (an impersonator meaning someone intentionally acting with pretense as another person). The timings of the Sports Drome target practice shooter are impossible for it to have been Oswald; the target practice shooter was a crack shot--skilled and accurate--untrue of Oswald; and according to George Evica in his book, Dallas gun shop owner Thomas Masen, who at least one law enforcement official mistakenly believed (and it was a mistake) for a moment was Oswald based on appearance, self-identified as having been at the Sports Drome and the so-called "Oswald" shooter. A man shooting next to the "Oswald" Sports Drome shooter and seen accompanying that "Oswald" was identified (name known and interviewed by law enforcement) as a right-wing associate of Masen, etc. (this in Evica). This is all nothing to do with Oswald, except mistaken identifications. Thomas Masen's high school photo looks like Oswald's face. Known gun dealer Masen is who those Sports Drome witnesses likely remembered, and there is just zero indication that Masen intended anybody to think he was Oswald, therefore there was no impersonation going on either. All the ink that has been spilled over the Sports Drome "Oswald"--all meaningless, all illusory, not Oswald, not anybody pretending to be Oswald, just witnesses who were mistaken. 

But there is what may be another possible attempt to link Oswald to the rifle and the assassination: shortly after a witnessed presence of Oswald and Tippit eating breakfast at separate tables at the same time at the Dobbs House restaurant on Beckley at 10 am Thu Nov 21, a driver with no prior diagnosis of mental illness and no indication of deception when polygraphed, who told of this to a coworker before the assassination, picked up a hitchhiker at the Beckley street entrance to a freeway heading downtown, carrying a rifle-sized package and noisily making asking about the presidential parade route and asking whether it would be possible to shoot Kennedy from a window from a building. The hitchhiker had himself let off, with his rifle-sized package, at Elm and Houston, practically in front of the TSBD. THERE was the "noisy" attempt to connect Oswald to the rifle. (The driver was convinced based on appearance the hitchhiker was Oswald, though I believe that was an accident and mistaken, perhaps explicable if the hitchhiker was Larry Crafard, whom multiple witnesses mistook for Oswald but no credible evidence Crafard intended any of those mistaken identifications of himself as Oswald.)

In one of the oddest details of the driver's story in his original FBI interview, he said the hitchhiker in the midst of talking about the upcoming JFK visit and possibilities of assassination, tried to get the driver to look at a photo of a man holding a rifle. But the driver was driving so says he did not look at the photo directly. One wonders if instead of hallucination that indeed might have been a Backyard Photo of Oswald--as odd as that may sound. And the hitchhiker was behaving "noisily", on purpose. Why? Because (I say) that hitchhiker was carrying Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano which he had just received from Oswald, which after the assassination would be pinned on Oswald as having conveyed it to the hitchhiker to carry to the TSBD. This is what I think Oswald thought was a sale of his rifle, not knowing where that rifle was headed, into the TSBD to set him up as the accused assassin of JFK the next day. 

In other words everybody has been looking at the Sports Drome to connect Oswald and the rifle of the assassination. That is not the story. The Ralph Yates hitchhiker is the story to look at, where that gets connected.  

Ralph Yates had a mental breakdown within a couple of weeks and entered years of mental hospitals. He had no previous mental illness diagnosis, though he had family genetic history of such. Yates was married, productively employed, had children, at the time. The FBI agents filed reports of Yates calling them days after his interview with them, sobbing and insisting he had told them the truth, while showing signs of mental deterioration. Yates realized he was mentally deteriorating himself and brought some medications he had been prescribed to the FBI claiming he was being driven crazy by the medications and begging the FBI to test the medicines. The FBI agents not surprisingly refused to get into the lab testing business of Yates' medication because that was not the FBI's jurisdiction, and advised Yates and Yates' wife to have him check with a hospital, which is where Yates spent years thereafter. Unlike Jim Douglass, I do not at all think the FBI had anything to do with Yates' mental breakdown. I am not quite so 100% certain however that nobody had anything to do with Yates' breakdown. The Yates' claim that his medicine was being tampered with and driving him crazy sounds analogous to Jack Ruby's claim that he was being injected with cancer while he was in jail--it sounds off the wall, and to a reasonable person it most likely is off the wall. Yet in light of the high stakes of Ruby and arguably Yates, one does not quite know that (that it is all off the wall). 

Whatever the cause of Yates' mental breakdown, his immediately-reported witnessed account of carrying the hitchhiker from immediate proximity of Point A where Oswald was, at the time Oswald was independently witnessed there by witnesses of high credibility, to Point B the site of Oswald's workplace carrying a rifle-sized package, the day before the assassination--that story of Yates occurred before his breakdown, when he had no prior history of such.  

Within one day after that hitchhiker carrying a rifle from proximity of location Point A of Oswald, to proximity of the TSBD Point B, a president was dead and a witness of Oswald at Point A was also dead (officer Tippit). The likely identification of the hitchhiker of Yates on Thursday, the killer of Tippit on Friday, and the would-be killer of Oswald at the Texas Theatre on Friday, Larry Crafard of the Carousel Club, fled Dallas in the early hours of Saturday morning. The next day, Sunday morning, Oswald himself was killed by the host of the recently-arrived Crafard at the Carousel Club, Ruby. 

Maybe Ralph Yates' lifelong mental issues thereafter happened naturally, but there is some incredible pathos in the picture told by his wife of Yates in that mental hospital, year after year, insisting that he had told the truth about that hitchhiker that day in Dallas, that it had really happened, like talking to the walls, not being believed . . . and offered another pill to calm him down.

[Sean Coleman]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Sean, the Sports Drome "Oswald" sightings are a red herring. There is no evidence the person some later thought had been Oswald, claimed to be or sought to be identified as Oswald, and apart from a similarity in the rifle and physical description, there is no evidence that person was either Oswald or an Oswald impersonator (an impersonator meaning someone intentionally acting with pretense as another person). The timings of the Sports Drome target practice shooter are impossible for it to have been Oswald; the target practice shooter was a crack shot--skilled and accurate--untrue of Oswald; and according to George Evica in his book, Dallas gun shop owner Thomas Masen, who at least one law enforcement official mistakenly believed (and it was a mistake) for a moment was Oswald based on appearance, self-identified as having been at the Sports Drome and the so-called "Oswald" shooter. A man shooting next to the "Oswald" Sports Drome shooter and seen accompanying that "Oswald" was identified (name known and interviewed by law enforcement) as a right-wing associate of Masen, etc. (this in Evica). This is all nothing to do with Oswald, except mistaken identifications. Thomas Masen's high school photo looks like Oswald's face. Known gun dealer Masen is who those Sports Drome witnesses likely remembered, and there is just zero indication that Masen intended anybody to think he was Oswald, therefore there was no impersonation going on either. All the ink that has been spilled over the Sports Drome "Oswald"--all meaningless, all illusory, not Oswald, not anybody pretending to be Oswald, just witnesses who were mistaken. 

But there is what may be another possible attempt to link Oswald to the rifle and the assassination: shortly after a witnessed presence of Oswald and Tippit eating breakfast at separate tables at the same time at the Dobbs House restaurant on Beckley at 10 am Thu Nov 21, a driver with no prior diagnosis of mental illness and no indication of deception when polygraphed, who told of this to a coworker before the assassination, picked up a hitchhiker at the Beckley street entrance to a freeway heading downtown, carrying a rifle-sized package and noisily making asking about the presidential parade route and asking whether it would be possible to shoot Kennedy from a window from a building. The hitchhiker had himself let off, with his rifle-sized package, at Elm and Houston, practically in front of the TSBD. THERE was the "noisy" attempt to connect Oswald to the rifle. (The driver was convinced based on appearance the hitchhiker was Oswald, though I believe that was an accident and mistaken, perhaps explicable if the hitchhiker was Larry Crafard, whom multiple witnesses mistook for Oswald but no credible evidence Crafard intended any of those mistaken identifications of himself as Oswald.)

In one of the oddest details of the driver's story in his original FBI interview, he said the hitchhiker in the midst of talking about the upcoming JFK visit and possibilities of assassination, tried to get the driver to look at a photo of a man holding a rifle. But the driver was driving so says he did not look at the photo directly. One wonders if instead of hallucination that indeed might have been a Backyard Photo of Oswald--as odd as that may sound. And the hitchhiker was behaving "noisily", on purpose. Why? Because (I say) that hitchhiker was carrying Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano which he had just received from Oswald, which after the assassination would be pinned on Oswald as having conveyed it to the hitchhiker to carry to the TSBD. This is what I think Oswald thought was a sale of his rifle, not knowing where that rifle was headed, into the TSBD to set him up as the accused assassin of JFK the next day. 

In other words everybody has been looking at the Sports Drome to connect Oswald and the rifle of the assassination. That is not the story. The Ralph Yates hitchhiker is the story to look at, where that gets connected.  

Ralph Yates had a mental breakdown within a couple of weeks and entered years of mental hospitals. He had no previous mental illness diagnosis, though he had family genetic history of such. Yates was married, productively employed, had children, at the time. The FBI agents filed reports of Yates calling them days after his interview with them, sobbing and insisting he had told them the truth, while showing signs of mental deterioration. Yates realized he was mentally deteriorating himself and brought some medications he had been prescribed to the FBI claiming he was being driven crazy by the medications and begging the FBI to test the medicines. The FBI agents not surprisingly refused to get into the lab testing business of Yates' medication because that was not the FBI's jurisdiction, and advised Yates and Yates' wife to have him check with a hospital, which is where Yates spent years thereafter. Unlike Jim Douglass, I do not at all think the FBI had anything to do with Yates' mental breakdown. I am not quite so 100% certain however that nobody had anything to do with Yates' breakdown. The Yates' claim that his medicine was being tampered with and driving him crazy sounds analogous to Jack Ruby's claim that he was being injected with cancer while he was in jail--it sounds off the wall, and to a reasonable person it most likely is off the wall. Yet in light of the high stakes of Ruby and arguably Yates, one does not quite know that (that it is all off the wall). 

Whatever the cause of Yates' mental breakdown, his immediately-reported witnessed account of carrying the hitchhiker from immediate proximity of Point A where Oswald was, at the time Oswald was independently witnessed there by witnesses of high credibility, to Point B the site of Oswald's workplace carrying a rifle-sized package, the day before the assassination--that story of Yates occurred before his breakdown, when he had no prior history of such.  

Within one day after that hitchhiker carrying a rifle from proximity of location Point A of Oswald, to proximity of the TSBD Point B, a president was dead and a witness of Oswald at Point A was also dead (officer Tippit). The likely identification of the hitchhiker of Yates on Thursday, the killer of Tippit on Friday, and the would-be killer of Oswald at the Texas Theatre on Friday, Larry Crafard of the Carousel Club, fled Dallas in the early hours of Saturday morning. The next day, Sunday morning, Oswald himself was killed by the host of the recently-arrived Crafard at the Carousel Club, Ruby. 

Maybe Ralph Yates' lifelong mental issues thereafter happened naturally, but there is some incredible pathos in the picture told by his wife of Yates in that mental hospital, year after year, insisting that he had told the truth about that hitchhiker that day in Dallas, that it had really happened, like talking to the walls, not being believed . . . and offered another pill to calm him down.

Brilliant! Yep, scratch the rifle range and insert Ralph Yates as an even hastier addition to the mix. 

[Larry Hancock]

There are other additions to the mix as well, stretching back to McKewon in Houston......the problem is that as of Nov. 24 the FBI was being instructed to write a report on Oswald as the lone shooter and regardless of how many leads might surface, each lead was individually pushed back and officially rejected, never allowed to develop into a critical mass. 

[John Butler]

On 12/6/2021 at 5:17 PM, Larry Hancock said:

There are other additions to the mix as well, stretching back to McKewon in Houston......the problem is that as of Nov. 24 the FBI was being instructed to write a report on Oswald as the lone shooter and regardless of how many leads might surface, each lead was individually pushed back and officially rejected, never allowed to develop into a critical mass. 

Would you say the FBI was one of the main parties in the cover up?

[Larry Hancock]

Absolutely John, in my view ONI covered up certain information in Oswald's military files,  the FBI covered up a variety of contacts and the use of Oswald as a source and the CIA covered up a series of propaganda and counter intelligence activities built around Oswald's identity.  Circa October the conspiracy began hijacking Oswald, knowing full well the blow back that would be created in any investigation of his involvement with the assassination - and also very much aware of the proclivities of the agencies to protect their sources, methods and operations over any other considerations.

[Sean Coleman]

31 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Absolutely John, in my view ONI covered up certain information in Oswald's military files,  the FBI covered up a variety of contacts and the use of Oswald as a source and the CIA covered up a series of propaganda and counter intelligence activities built around Oswald's identity.  Circa October the conspiracy began hijacking Oswald, knowing full well the blow back that would be created in any investigation of his involvement with the assassination - and also very much aware of the proclivities of the agencies to protect their sources, methods and operations over any other considerations.

But there are instances where the feebies don’t seem to play ball which is puzzling- the two that spring to mind are Edna’s call to LBJ mentioning an extra Oswald and their refusal to endorse the DPD’s claim they had prints from the rifle? Am sure there’s more. It’s like they will play ball…but it’s THEIR ball being played with.

[Jake Hammond]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:03 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Jake, on your last comment, that image of that lady has no verification or likelihood of being from Dealey Plaza. By stating that without verification this is creating a distraction and a non-fact. Until it is verified, that image of that lady has as much relevance to Andrej's discussion of Prayer Man as any random photo of any woman anywhere.

It does not matter that Denis says the photo is from Dealey Plaza. He gave no link. When I asked, he said it was from a KLRD news program on Utube again without giving a link. I wasted about 90 minutes going through every Utube video I could find from KLRD reporting on Nov 22, 1963 on Utube, trying to locate that image. I could not find it and reported such. Yet still Denis did not provide a link, nor have you.

I am willing to be shown wrong, but at this point I do not think that lady has anything to do with Dealey Plaza, and that it would be better if you verify that before citing it as a fact and pressing Andrej to analyze that woman's photo, out of respect for Andrej's time and so as not to introduce a meaningless time-consuming distraction.

I have not seen any photo or film of Dealey Plaza with recognizable background in that photo or with the vehicles in the background of that lady. If that photo is from KLRD from Nov 22, I suspect it could be from outside Parkland Hospital, based on a possible similarity of background and one of the vehicles in the background of the lady to about 0:41 here (the vehicle on the left, midway up): (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xel2lnpvY5Y.

Unless evidence is given that that lady has anything to do with Dealey Plaza, it seems to me that photo is best not cited in discussion as a possible candidate for Prayer Man, not even as an "if so, then" or "maybe".

Thanks Greg, 

 I have no evidence that that lady was in Dealey Plaza that day or on the steps. But surely you realise the bad logic in that line of debate ? ... The same is true of Oswald. In fact its more true because he was the focus of the whole US media, police and fBI and everyone was asked if they saw him. Not a single person said they saw him despite being asked specifically if they saw him. Yet the lady in the image looks a lot more like the person in Darnell than Oswald and no one was asked if they saw her on the steps. 

 So I believe with conviction that your line of argument here only strengthens my point. The person is more likely to be the lady than it is Oswald. Since there is ZERO evidence of Oswald on Dealey Plaza that day or in the entrance to the TSBD, despite 50 years of trying to place him there, hundreds of potential eye witnesses interviewed and lots of images and film roll of the area. 

 Also, the long dark hair, large bangle, under T shirt and camera make it much more likely to be that woman than Oswald . 

[Larry Hancock]

Sean,  I'm afraid this is way to complex to really deal with in limited posts - I answered John's question literally and in respect to certain specific behaviors of the FBI and CIA after the assassination.  Overall the FBI's response was mixed just as you would expect given that they were in a reactive mode.  You have a note from Oswald flushed, subversive source files destroyed in New Orleans, a page in his diary rewritten - but  you also have Hoover talking about an impersonation in Mexico City,  his sarcastic note about the CIA hanging out the FBI there, his note to Johnson wanting to pursue a Cuban conspiracy in the FBI assassination note, his deep interest in using Martino as a source on that initially, and a great deal of bungling and obfuscation with the evidence itself - even written DPD that they would have to renumber their list or explain why it will not match what HQ is returning.

I try to pull all those pieces together in SWHT/2010 in terms of how both the CIA and FBI responded re-actively, and lied about parts of the response.  The CIA even lied about the investigation they did in Miami and then suppressed.

[Eddy Bainbridge]

8 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Sean,  I'm afraid this is way to complex to really deal with in limited posts - I answered John's question literally and in respect to certain specific behaviors of the FBI and CIA after the assassination.  Overall the FBI's response was mixed just as you would expect given that they were in a reactive mode.  You have a note from Oswald flushed, subversive source files destroyed in New Orleans, a page in his diary rewritten - but  you also have Hoover talking about an impersonation in Mexico City,  his sarcastic note about the CIA hanging out the FBI there, his note to Johnson wanting to pursue a Cuban conspiracy in the FBI assassination note, his deep interest in using Martino as a source on that initially, and a great deal of bungling and obfuscation with the evidence itself - even written DPD that they would have to renumber their list or explain why it will not match what HQ is returning.

I try to pull all those pieces together in SWHT/2010 in terms of how both the CIA and FBI responded re-actively, and lied about parts of the response.  The CIA even lied about the investigation they did in Miami and then suppressed.

Hi Larry, I suspect the FBI and CIA worked together on the relationship between reality and the Zapruder film, as witnessed and recorded by Robert West. Have you investigated this area at all?

[Larry Hancock]

Hi Eddy, actually no I have not.  The FBI had enough problems on its hand in regards to the timing and trajectories of the shooting given that their official report does not match the WC conclusions.  I am aware of the West issue and it does not reflect well on their recreation, which certainly appears flawed.  I suspect one of their problems was that certain of their people were doing what they were supposed to be at times and then that proved embarrassing to the story they were directed to write as of Sunday.  No wonder they kept tripping over themselves.

[Greg Doudna]

On 12/8/2021 at 12:55 PM, Jake Hammond said:

Thanks Greg, 

 I have no evidence that that lady was in Dealey Plaza that day or on the steps. But surely you realise the bad logic in that line of debate ? ... The same is true of Oswald. In fact its more true because he was the focus of the whole US media, police and fBI and everyone was asked if they saw him. Not a single person said they saw him despite being asked specifically if they saw him. Yet the lady in the image looks a lot more like the person in Darnell than Oswald and no one was asked if they saw her on the steps. 

 So I believe with conviction that your line of argument here only strengthens my point. The person is more likely to be the lady than it is Oswald. Since there is ZERO evidence of Oswald on Dealey Plaza that day or in the entrance to the TSBD, despite 50 years of trying to place him there, hundreds of potential eye witnesses interviewed and lots of images and film roll of the area. 

 Also, the long dark hair, large bangle, under T shirt and camera make it much more likely to be that woman than Oswald . 

Jake, Oswald is a relevant question for Prayer Man since Oswald worked in the Texas School Book Depository. Prayer Man may have been in that Prayer Man position for as little as ca. 30 seconds, and was in the rear where it is not surprising that most if not all of those in the vicinity would not remember seeing him there. As for Oswald, he was not accompanied by anyone during that lunch hour (unlike other employees who ate together or watched the parade in small groups), and according to his account ate his lunch in the domino room which was all but abandoned that day due to people going outside to see the parade. Andrej has given devastating positive reasons for an Oswald match, though issues are still being discussed. Oswald therefore is a very live and relevant issue with the Prayer Man identity.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Greg Doudna

[Andrej Stancak]

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Edited December 9, 2021 by Andrej Stancak

[David Andrews]

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Edited December 9, 2021 by David Andrews

[Andrej Stancak]

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Edited December 9, 2021 by Andrej Stancak

[Sean Coleman]

3 deleteds in a row? That piques my interest more than the thread title!!