Prayer Man is a Man

[Jake Hammond]

48 minutes ago, Sean Coleman said:

3 deleteds in a row? That piques my interest more than the thread title!!

spill the beans !

 

[Jake Hammond]

18 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Jake, Oswald is a relevant question for Prayer Man since Oswald worked in the Texas School Book Depository. Prayer Man may have been in that Prayer Man position for as little as ca. 30 seconds, and was in the rear where it is not surprising that most if not all of those in the vicinity would not remember seeing him there. As for Oswald, he was not accompanied by anyone during that lunch hour (unlike other employees who ate together or watched the parade in small groups), and according to his account ate his lunch in the domino room which was all but abandoned that day due to people going outside to see the parade. Andrej has given devastating positive reasons for an Oswald match, though issues are still being discussed. Oswald therefore is a very live and relevant issue with the Prayer Man identity.

Now your insistence on continuing to suggest this batty idea that a random photo of a random woman not even at Dealey Plaza is "more likely" to be Prayer Man, instead of saying something like, "Sorry, I was mistaken, I assumed that woman's photo was verified in the vicinity of the Prayer Man photo" ... this functions only to disrupt and derail, as if you do not want the actual discussion of the Oswald/PM identification question to continue focused on actual issues. 

If you have arguments against a match between Prayer Man and Oswald, fair enough, make them on the basis of Prayer Man and Oswald (or some other known candidate person in the vicinity, if there are arguments for such). But it is not helpful, and I want to say here, is not honest, to keep bringing up in the language of a possible candidate for Prayer Man this woman's photo--as if you intend this woman's photo to actually become a viral discussion, something started, creation of a new rabbit hole.

You seem intelligent. I cannot believe you do not understand this. I thought my pointing out the bogus nature of this woman's photo provenance, which involved a little time on my part, with the thought I would spare you and others the trouble--I thought you would appreciate and accept the correction, not double down as if you could care less about that photo's provenance and are trying to say it does not matter what continent that woman was on or what century she lived, that unprovenanced random photo is "more likely" to have been Prayer Man than Oswald, which the non-alert will easily read as "she could be Prayer Man". 

There's a lot of hand waving there Greg. The woman is a woman, western, from the 1950's with the exact same clothes and hair as the woman in Darnell , she has a camera like the person on the steps and has been claimed to have been on Dealey Plaza that day, which has not been refuted. Looking for a specific TV stations video is merely absence of evidence. My point stands that this woman looks more like PM than Oswald because PM clearly has long dark hair which is simply no refutable using Andrej;s own image on his blog. The receding hairline is clearly a blur from from to back as the head is turned to the left. You can see this by the exact same blur on the ear...is this ' receding ear' ? no.  

 The concept of only analysing PP through the framework of ' is it Oswald ?' as you suggest will only ever end in the one way street that so many JFK avenues of research have become. You are repeatedly ignoring the issues I raise and I keep repeating them, so I'll do it one last time and then leave it there. 

 - clear long hair, look at the image on Andrejs blog which I attached in an earlier comment. Its just not debatable I'm sorry. 

 - large bangle on right arm. 

 - skin coloured V opening on unbuttoned shirt, not white. This is clear. 

 The above issues meet your criteria for Oswald comparison and all suggest a woman. Below are a few others .  

-  The above along with the camera make PP look an awful lot like camera lady. 

- There is not a single witness to Oswald being there. Not one. Not even a hint of mistaken identity or possible similarity. Not even a ' oh.. there a was a man on the steps who sort of looked like him' Please just think about this. 

 My passion in this case is the application of objective analysis to find the truth so I do feel passionately about chasing red herrings, which of course I believe this to be. That is not to say that deep analysis is not valid, far from it. however, deep analysis essentially requires clarity of thought and common sense. I respect your views and right to air them so please don't tell other researchers what they can and can't say and how they should and shouldn't look at things.

 I feel this is a red herring at this point and so will not look at the thread for a while, if any evidence to support your pro Oswald stance ever materialises I shall return and eat my hat. 

[Andrew Prutsok]

22 hours ago, Jake Hammond said:

Thanks Greg, 

 I have no evidence that that lady was in Dealey Plaza that day or on the steps. But surely you realise the bad logic in that line of debate ? ... The same is true of Oswald. In fact its more true because he was the focus of the whole US media, police and fBI and everyone was asked if they saw him. Not a single person said they saw him despite being asked specifically if they saw him. Yet the lady in the image looks a lot more like the person in Darnell than Oswald and no one was asked if they saw her on the steps. 

 So I believe with conviction that your line of argument here only strengthens my point. The person is more likely to be the lady than it is Oswald. Since there is ZERO evidence of Oswald on Dealey Plaza that day or in the entrance to the TSBD, despite 50 years of trying to place him there, hundreds of potential eye witnesses interviewed and lots of images and film roll of the area. 

 Also, the long dark hair, large bangle, under T shirt and camera make it much more likely to be that woman than Oswald . 

There is evidence. Don't police notes indicate Oswald claiming to be out on the steps at the time of the assassination? That's why authorities made the panicked visit to Billy Lovelady's home the evening of the assassination to get him to confirm that is him in Altgens 6.

[John Butler]

12 minutes ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

Andrew did not say this.  Jake Hammond did. 

So I believe with conviction that your line of argument here only strengthens my point. The person is more likely to be the lady than it is Oswald.

There is no solid evidence that this woman claimed to be PM was actually in Dealey Plaza?  I can't believe someone would propose this without the necessary evidence to back it up.  Where's the proof?  It would probably be a good idea not to discuss this woman any further unless proof of being in Dealey Plaza is provided.

15 minutes ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

There is evidence. Don't police notes indicate Oswald claiming to be out on the steps at the time of the assassination?

That Oswald's statement is true and was noticed after the Altgens 6 photo was sent to the AP.  Probably sometime after 1:00 and was fixed later that day.  Billy Lovelady, who along with Bill Shelley, could have been the patsy.  I have the notion that the floor laying crew on the 6th floor was a source for patsies or had members who were involved with the assassination such as Danny Arce or Bonnie Williams.  I am sure Lovelady said just what they wanted him to say.  Whose "they"?  The FBI.

[Greg Doudna]

deleted

Edited December 10, 2021 by Greg Doudna

[Jake Hammond]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

There is no solid evidence that this woman claimed to be PM was actually in Dealey Plaza?  I can't believe someone would propose this without the necessary evidence to back it up.  Where's the proof?  It would probably be a good idea not to discuss this woman any further unless proof of being in Dealey Plaza is provided.

That Oswald's statement is true and was noticed after the Altgens 6 photo was sent to the AP.  Probably sometime after 1:00 and was fixed later that day.  Billy Lovelady, who along with Bill Shelley, could have been the patsy.  I have the notion that the floor laying crew on the 6th floor was a source for patsies or had members who were involved with the assassination such as Danny Arce or Bonnie Williams.  I am sure Lovelady said just what they wanted him to say.  Whose "they"?  The FBI.

 

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

It is not up to Andrej or anyone to refute a continuing unverified claim that that woman in that photo could be from Dealey Plaza therefore you think it is fine to discuss as if she is. You are the one who needs to show documentation, give a link, show that photo is from Dealey Plaza (since no else on earth has)--that is just basic. 

The person who said that before you--your hearsay source--declined, despite request, to give any link or documentation to support the claim that that photo is from news footage of Dealey Plaza. Nor has anyone else provided such, including yourself. Unless shown otherwise, it should be presumed that the reason no documentation is known showing that photo is from Dealey Plaza is because no such documentation exists. Otherwise there are no controls and anybody can make up anything out of thin air and defy others to try to disprove it. You have provided no documentation of that photo despite invoking it front and center numerous times in posts, and have attempted to drag Andrej into an endless rabbit hole, challenging him to disprove that Prayer Man is that lady, when that lady, in terms of presently known evidence, has nothing to do with anything.

My comment to you on this was and is intended solely in reference to your citation of an unverified photo. I do not mean your points that do not invoke that unverified photo, some good and relevant points--I hope Andrej will answer 🙂  

p.s. I will bet you 10:1, ten to one, that if and when the source of that photo shows up, it is a lady in the parking area of Parkland Hospital (a long way from Dealey Plaza). Want to bet? 

If she is in the parking area at parkland, with her camera, how does that exclude her ? She's probably a photographer. its not illegal to move from one location to another. Reminder.... Oswald is unverifiable and doesn't have any of the features PP has, unlike camera lady. Again, I'm not saying that its her, it just looks exactly like her and not like Oswald. Because of the massive desire for it to be Oswald ( like Lovelady before) this topic is skewed all out of proportion. I'd just like a rational and logical debate where we look at the evidence for it being Oswald and say....

' Well... maybe , if some evidence came forward... and the long dark hair tucked behind the ear is an optical illusion, and Buell Frazier was so shocked he went a bit blind, and all 100 witnesses or so were got to by the FBI / obfuscated the truth, and he wasn't wearing a T shirt, and for some reason he was wearing a ladies long bangle, and he suddenly relaxed and started taking photos before fleeing the scene, of which there is no evidence of... then maybe, maybe this could be Oswald'.... That would be a rational position I feel. 

 Rather than....' I think its Oswald because we don't know who it is and I'd like it to be Oswald and if you ignore the posture / slouch the height would be right, and ignore anyone who points out the glaring issues'. ...I'm sorry but that's just not rational at all. 

[Chris Davidson]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

It is not up to Andrej or anyone to refute a continuing unverified claim that that woman in that photo could be from Dealey Plaza therefore you think it is fine to discuss as if she is. You are the one who needs to show documentation, give a link, show that photo is from Dealey Plaza (since no else on earth has)--that is just basic. 

The person who said that before you--your hearsay source--declined, despite request, to give any link or documentation to support the claim that that photo is from news footage of Dealey Plaza. Nor has anyone else provided such, including yourself. Unless shown otherwise, it should be presumed that the reason no documentation is known showing that photo is from Dealey Plaza is because no such documentation exists. Otherwise there are no controls and anybody can make up anything out of thin air and defy others to try to disprove it. You have provided no documentation of that photo despite invoking it front and center numerous times in posts, and have attempted to drag Andrej into an endless rabbit hole, challenging him to disprove that Prayer Man is that lady, when that lady, in terms of presently known evidence, has nothing to do with anything.

My comment to you on this was and is intended solely in reference to your citation of an unverified photo. I do not mean your points that do not invoke that unverified photo, some good and relevant points--I hope Andrej will answer 🙂  

p.s. I will bet you 10:1, ten to one, that if and when the source of that photo shows up, it is a lady in the parking area of Parkland Hospital (a long way from Dealey Plaza). Want to bet? 

This is not an endorsement of PrayerPerson's gender, either way.

It is to point out that this woman was in Dealy Plaza when she was caught on film. Who's film? I have no idea.

Supplied, is a different frame than the one supplied earlier.

If you want to know her location within the plaza, I suggest identifying the background building which I purposely cropped somewhat.

 

 

 

[Jake Hammond]

Thank you Chris, Greg owes me a tenner ! Look at the right wrist, there is an unusual shape and shine to that area. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Jake Hammond

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

This is not an endorsement of PrayerPerson's gender, either way.

It is to point out that this woman was in Dealy Plaza when she was caught on film. Who's film? I have no idea.

Supplied, is a different frame than the one supplied earlier.

If you want to know her location within the plaza, I suggest identifying the background building which I purposely cropped somewhat.

Chris what is your basis for saying "this woman was in Dealey Plaza when she was caught on film"? What is your basis for saying that is Dealey Plaza?

Where did you get this second picture, which you say you have cropped? Where can one find the uncropped?

[John Butler]

56 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Chris what is your basis for saying "this woman was in Dealey Plaza when she was caught on film"? What is your basis for saying that is Dealey Plaza?

Where did you get this second picture, which you say you have cropped? Where can one find the uncropped?

Ditto.

It is time to unfold your hand.  Show and name your pics.

Edited December 10, 2021 by John Butler

[Chris Davidson]

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Chris what is your basis for saying "this woman was in Dealey Plaza when she was caught on film"? What is your basis for saying that is Dealey Plaza?

Stop fighting a losing battle.

 

[Greg Doudna]

Found it. The woman with the camera is in Dealey Plaza, on Houston, maybe 1:00 pm (?) on Nov 22, 1963, in the aftermath of the assassination, at 15:39-44 below. Denis Morisette was right, Jake your camera woman argument has verification putting her in the vicinity of the TSBD (and I owe you the tenner).  

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Thanks, Chris, for posting another photograph of the lady who is being considered as Prayer Man candidate. This larger view of the lady in question excludes her as Prayer Man safely: 1. She has bushy hair, unlike Prayer Man., 2. There is no white triangular shape in the middle of the upper chest that continues to the neck in this woman's figure. This white shape on Prayer Man's figure was very likely due to unbuttoned top of the shirt.  3. This lady's skirt was of light colour whereas her blouse was much darker than her skirt; however, Prayer Man does not show such contrast. Only one of these mismatches would be enough to exclude her as Prayer Man.

Of course, there are further mismatches, such as Prayer Man was 5'9' 1/2'' and this lady just does not look like to be that tall. If she was 5' 2'' - 5'3'', she theoretically could be considered to stand on the top landing. However, in that case her figure would not fit Prayer Man's figure for reason I explained couple of times already. 

 

[Jake Hammond]

Andrej. I thought I’d jump back in as there’s a new image. 
just a few counter points . 
1 - If the image is taken later then on a windy day you would expect bushy windswept hair relative to earlier . 
2 - As discussed , there is no white T shirt in Darnell, the exposed area is skin tone . Your own blog images show this best. 
3 - did I miss an image or link ? I don’t see a skirt in my images. 
Height - do you know what heel height she was wearing ? Do you know she isn’t 5’9 ? How many inches did you compensate for the slouching we see in Darnell relative to your data point of the bolt upright, and slightly closer, Buell Frazier ? 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Jake Hammond

[Jake Hammond]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Found it. The woman with the camera is in Dealey Plaza, on Houston, maybe 1:00 pm (?) on Nov 22, 1963, in the aftermath of the assassination, at 15:39-44 below. Denis Morisette was right, Jake your camera woman argument has verification putting her in the vicinity of the TSBD (and I owe you the tenner).  

Edited December 10, 2021 by Jake Hammond