Prayer Man is a Man

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jake Hammond said:

It’s on the previous page 

Sorry,

I missed where Chris posted that.  I still need more information to relate these photos to the JFKA.

Sorry, I haven't replied earlier.  The forum has been off line.

Edited December 10, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

This set of photos does not make sense.  Only that one can see the Court Records Building in the background.  The small inset used in the larger scene is not at the same time as the larger scene.  Are they even on the same day?  There is no way to tell.  The group on the SW corner is not the same as what one sees in Zapruder or Dorn on the day of the assassination.  Looks to be about the same time as one looks at shadows.  But, it is clearly not what one sees on the day of the assassination.  So, what is the big deal about not identifying where that scene is at.

Also, include where the alleged PW is at.  PP just isn't sufficient to identify gender for me.  Is that a fire truck in the background?  I don't recall one in Dealey Plaza.  

[John Butler]

42 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Do we really need more corroboration on this, after what's been provided?
What possible motive could there be to present false information?
Think "station wagon".

 

Yes.  Don't know on motives.   But, to present information in this fashion while withholding information just is not good practice.  Why amaze and mystify forum members?  This is not a "I see" identify the object site.  

There is no way to tell if this is before or after the assassination.  Or, if even on the same day.  The SW corner is not the same.  The view of the Court Records Building is not the same as any film on assassination day.  Where the alleged PW crop is still unknown, and it does not relate to the background photos with the exception of the general locale. 

Where is the fire truck in the background in the other crop? 

[Andrej Stancak]

Thanks for posting the video with the lady.

I was able to look it up at the time mark around 15:39, suggested by Greg. This lady is very tiny which can be seen when her figure is  compared to the figure of a police officer standing behind. I do not know if she could make it to 5'2'' - 5'3'', however, even that height of 5'2'' - 5'3'' would exclude her as Prayer Man. The missing white spot in the middle of the upper chest and her light-coloured skirt contrasting with her dark blouse (no such contrast can be seen on Prayer Man's figure) finish things up. Prayer Man does not wear a skirt, I should add.

Even if some forum members would like to continue submitting this lady as Prayer Man, I choose not to comment on this lady as Prayer Man candidate any longer.

 

[John Butler]

4 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Even if some forum members would like to continue submitting this lady as Prayer Man, I choose not to comment on this lady as Prayer Man candidate any longer.

I wish I could also.  But, there are several things I am curious about.

[John Butler]

8 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Chris D. said,

Think "station wagon".

 

I did.  And, this is the one I thought of on that afternoon.

[Jake Hammond]

.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jake Hammond

[Jake Hammond]

 

 

  

In this image we see clearly the large bangle on the right arm. 

And here we see the glint it creates, as in Darnell. 

 

And here is the watch or bracelet on the left arm, as in Darnell. 

In this image it is clear that the shirt is fastened to the top button because it is a ladies shirt fastening on the ladies side and so we wouldn't see the top button if it was open. The buttons are catching the sun as she turns to look down Elm. What is important is the placement of the next button down...It would only take the neck fastening button to be undone and the shirt would open down to the breast line, as we see in PP. This is typical for a ladies shirt of that era. Mens shirts invariably have a button in between those two. 

Andrej I can't see a skirt in any of the film, or trousers. Do you have another image or a reason for seeing a skirt ? It looks lighter what ever it is so I don't think its the lady running down Elm as another member suggested. 

Please note the mid coloured shirt, light long sleeve T shirt under it protruding approximately 6 inches. The bangle, long sleeve under T, shirt with rolled up sleeves and glinting or white buttons, camera, same hair and watch on left wrist would be a MASSIVE coincidence if this isn't camera lady. I'm no mathematician but I'm also not a coincidence theorist. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jake Hammond

[Jake Hammond]

As a side note... For anyone struggling with embedding images on a MacBook ... 

 I used google photos to save screenshots, then opened them in ' Blogger' as though I was going to make a blog.... but DON'T touch anything after choosing the image, it is automatically highlighted, then press 'control' and the touch pad to ' right click' , then hit ' copy link' in the drop down. Then when you paset the link it will embed. The key is not to publish the blog or unhighlight the image after it automatically highlights. if you do that then you'll only be able to paste as a link. You don't even need to save or publish the blog. 

 I'd been saving blogs and adding links previously that probably didn't even work but I can't tell as when I hit the blogger link it is automatically open on the laptop by google. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jake Hammond

[Jake Hammond]

16 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thanks for posting the video with the lady.

I was able to look it up at the time mark around 15:39, suggested by Greg. This lady is very tiny which can be seen when her figure is  compared to the figure of a police officer standing behind. I do not know if she could make it to 5'2'' - 5'3'', however, even that height of 5'2'' - 5'3'' would exclude her as Prayer Man. The missing white spot in the middle of the upper chest and her light-coloured skirt contrasting with her dark blouse (no such contrast can be seen on Prayer Man's figure) finish things up. Prayer Man does not wear a skirt, I should add.

Even if some forum members would like to continue submitting this lady as Prayer Man, I choose not to comment on this lady as Prayer Man candidate any longer.

 

Andrej, we don't know the stack of her heel, we cannot be accurate to with an in inch using images like Darnell, let alone 6mm accuracy as you claim. No court would accept this. You cannot and did not calculate the effect of PP'S slouch and posture when comparing to the known reference of the upright Frazier.

 In summary, add an inch or two of heel, add a realistic level of accuracy and minus a few inches for slouch and you have PP at 5'2-5'5, this is using your own excellent analysis but making it real world, and introducing the potential heel by opening it up to being a woman. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jake Hammond

[John Butler]

13 hours ago, Jake Hammond said:

Prayer Man does not wear a skirt, I should add.

Nor heels.

[Jake Hammond]

Did I say that ? I can’t see where I said that. But if I did it was a while ago. I can’t tell whether it was a skirt or trousers in either PP or camera lady. Of course if one can be proved and the other one is wearing trousers then it can’t be camera lady on the steps. 

[Greg Doudna]

Jake I would like to comment your proposal and arguments that the woman with the camera of the news footage at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vhVenvzxQg, at 15:39-45, is Prayer Man. This woman holding a camera appears about 20-30 minutes after the assassination on Houston near the corner of Houston and Elm, a very short walk from the location of PM on the steps of the TSBD. You argue that she matches in physical description PM in the photos, and that the camera in her hand may correspond to what appears to be something in the hand of PM. Being short (as a woman), she might have gone up the steps to the top level in order to get a better camera shot, then over the next twenty minutes or so wandered across the street to Houston. The fact that none of the TSBD witnesses' testimony directly establish any other identification for PM would be consistent with camera woman being that person. So that is the argument.

If camera woman is--my guess--maybe 22? yrs old in the photos?--she would be only early 70s in age today, very possibly alive. If she could be identified and found she could be asked whether she stood on the top steps at the front of the TSBD entrance that day, and get an answer on that from her herself. 

However here are some points which seem to me to favor an Oswald identification over camera woman.

• Shirt neck profile. PM has a shirt neck profile in exact agreement with how Oswald wears his shirt when arrested, suggesting that is how he normally wore his shirts, unbuttoned ca. 3-4 buttons from the top with a T-shirt underneath. But camera woman's shirt is buttoned at the top neck button. You propose that she had that top collar button unbuttoned when PM (the next button below that being near breast level), then buttoned up her shirt at some point in the next ca. 20 minutes before she was photographed with her shirt buttoned at the collar. While that is possible, all else being equal would a woman taking photos take time out to button that top collar button, or just keep on as she was. And second, if camera woman did have her top collar unbuttoned so as to look like PM, she must have had a woman's equivalent of a T-shirt underneath because otherwise it would probably be considered borderline immodest or uncomfortably low cut for most women's preference I would think, but if she did why then button the neck button. Maybe there was a breeze and she was cold? But with Oswald, no change in how he wore his shirt needs to be assumed.
• Camera in left hand. The woman holds her camera in her left hand, which makes sense for a right-handed person, using the right hand at the time a picture is taken to steady and click the shutter. However PM is holding something in his right hand, not left. If PM is Oswald the object in his right hand would not be a camera (no indication at all that Oswald had a camera at work) but could be a glass coke bottle. An argument that the object in PM's right hand raised to PM's face in one PM photo is not a flash of a camera is that the same light reflection is seen when the object is lowered and not at PM's face. But possibly the light could be accounted for from reflection from the glass bottom of a coke bottle, with one photo capturing PM taking a swig. Camera woman is not holding anything in her right hand, suggesting the left hand is the hand she normally holds her camera when using only one hand, seemingly inconsistent with PM's object in the right hand.
• Hairline. While camera woman's haircut seems close to a match, PM's hairline seems to show an "indent" "in", more than the straight 90 degree drop of camera woman's hair. PM's hairline seems distinctive male pattern, a distinctive partly receding hairline of a type that Oswald and roughly 25% of American males have as Andrej brought out, but which camera woman does not have.
• Hair and top of ear. All of PM's right ear seems uncovered by hair, in agreement with photos of Oswald, whereas the hair of camera woman comes down over the top part of her right ear. (On the dark spot below PM's right ear, which matches the hair of neither Oswald nor camera woman, see below.)
• Darker area of PM's shirt. Although this tests the limits of visual resolution from the poor photo image, there does seem to be a slightly darker area of part of PM's shirt, which is irregular and not an intentional pattern of the shirt, which Andrej has intriguingly proposed matches a similar distribution of darker area on the maroon-red shirt that Oswald was wearing that morning (C150). Rather than shirt pattern this would be from wear and/or discoloration maybe from sweat over time. I don't know the cause, just guessing, but there is some discoloration in Oswald's C150 shirt which sort of corresponds to a discoloration area detectable in PM's shirt, but there is nothing in camera woman's shirt that is equivalent or to account for that.
• Weight. This is very subjective, but it "seems" PM may have somewhat more body mass than camera woman. Camera woman appears to be slender and light weight. Oswald was slender but taller and male and would have weighed perhaps 20? 30? pounds more than camera woman? In better agreement with PM?
• Forearm. The size and heft of the right forearm on PM seems to look like a man's forearm, a bit larger than would be anticipated for lightweight camera woman.

These comments are tentative subject to more expert opinion (I do not trust myself on photo interpretation of this nature) but these features on present analysis seem to me to better favor Oswald than camera woman as a match to Prayer Man. There is however one feature of PM that is puzzling and for which I can think of no good explanation: a dark streak below PM's right ear of same hue as the dark hue of hair above. It seems difficult to interpret that dark streak as actually being hair since it is odd for any hair of a man or woman to look that way. Certainly neither Oswald's nor camera woman have hair below their ear that way. The only parallel I can see is in this photo below which shows a similar dark streak below Oswald's ear as a result of shadow. However since PM is standing wholly in shadow without sun it seems that explanation will not work for PM, so I do not know what the explanation on that might be. 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Greg Doudna

[Chris Davidson]

Out from the shadow he comes.

Anyone care to identify him?

 

 

 

[John Butler]

I think Chris D's illustration should satisfy everyone.  Here is my identification.  Dwarf Man, the dwarf Prayer Man.  Well, that solves two problems.  One he is male and that takes care of Jake.   And, being a dwarf that settles Andrej's problem with height.  Everyone should be happy now.

Edited December 15, 2021 by John Butler