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" It is interesting that Charles Givens reported the colour of Oswald's shirt on Friday morning (and on other days) as green"

Nope, wrong.

Malcolm-Archive-Feb-20181348.jpg

 

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Bart, thank you for your correction. I was referring to Givens's testimony for the Warren Commission and did not quote my source properly:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing? 
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket. 

 

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Givens' answer on Oswald clothing is different from any other person and is way out there.  That is unless I missed someone.  Was he color blind and seeing green for red.  Most color blind people cannot distinguish between the two colors and see green / red as the same color. 

Or, maybe he is describing the other Oswald.  I believe Lee Oswald as versus Harvey was also lurking in the TSBD.  They did that in many other places.  It is said Oswald was surly and would generally walk off muttering something if spoken to.  I don't think there was much difference in their appearance if seen briefly or at a distance.  But, there voices may have been different.

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10 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Chris:

a person measuring 72 inches (6') would have his/her head of 9' 6/10''. First, there are standard proportions between body parts in human being. Tall and short people will differ in the heights of their heads, however, the proportions between their body height and the height of their heads will always be the same. This rule is known as a 7 1/2 rule and it is used by artists to achieve normal proportions in their human figures: https://www.artistsnetwork.com/art-techniques/drawing-proportions-human-body-ameral/ . 

Applied to Buell Wesley Frazier: 72/7.5 = 9.6. However, I used in my work the head height estimate acquired from real human beings. These are published e.g., on wikipedia.org in the chapter "Human Head". Here are the values:

headmeasures.jpg

 

Dimension 14 refers to head heights. There are 5 columns in the table above. The columns correspond to head heights (from short to large - left to right) in people divided into 5 quintiles based on their body heights. Thus, 9' 1/10' would correspond to a person of average body height. Buell Wesley Frazier was taller than average and that was the reason for selecting the two right-most values in my preliminary estimates.

Anyway, we have three values to compare for Buell Wesley Frazier's head:

The estimate according to the 7 1/2 rule:    9' 6/10''.

My estimate from comparing the plane 5' 2 1/2'' and 6':  9' 6'' .

The estimate that was given by wikipedia.org:     9' 7/10'' .

They are all three very close and make a strong case for Buell Wesley Frazier's head to measure 9' 6''. 

While it looks trivial to measure own head, it is actually not that trivial because the chin and the top of the head are not parts of a perfect cube. These measurements are usually made using simple but standardised tools.

Please do not believe people who already lost their case for good. If you wish to make a case for Mrs. Stanton being Prayer Man, you need to answer not only how her body height 5'4'' - 5' 6'' (the higher estimate is correct according to the comparison of her figure with the figure of her son Larry who was 6' -6'1'') but also the question where is her thick grey hair in Prayer Man's figure. Where is it?

I will go through the rest of your points carefully although I may not understand some very technical aspects in your post. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Before I go on, a correction is in order on my part.

My head height is actually 9 inches , NOT 8.5.

My sub-nasal length is 2.9 inches which also corresponds to the 50th percentile group.

Sorry, but I initially trusted my wife's vision without the use of a flat surface over the top of my head to measure to.

This most important aspect could be resolved by someone asking Frazier to take these two measurements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Givens' answer on Oswald clothing is different from any other person and is way out there.  That is unless I missed someone.  Was he color blind and seeing green for red.  Most color blind people cannot distinguish between the two colors and see green / red as the same color. 

Or, maybe he is describing the other Oswald.  I believe Lee Oswald as versus Harvey was also lurking in the TSBD.  They did that in many other places.  It is said Oswald was surly and would generally walk off muttering something if spoken to.  I don't think there was much difference in their appearance if seen briefly or at a distance.  But, there voices may have been different.

I do not buy the red shirt for a second. If you look at the majority of the statements in THIS post then there is no talk of any red shirt at all. I find the whole so called evidence to push the red shirt fishy to say the least.

And that post will get updated at some point. I have one more 'hell' week ahead of me.

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27 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Before I go on, a correction is in order on my part.

My head height is actually 9 inches , NOT 8.5.

My sub-nasal length is 2.9 inches which also corresponds to the 50th percentile group.

Sorry, but I initially trusted my wife's vision without the use of a flat surface over the top of my head to measure to.

This most important aspect could be resolved by someone asking Frazier to take these two measurements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would you be willing to take a picture of yourself with marks at 5' 2 1/2'' , 5'4'' and 6'' next to you? This would clear the problem of the height at which Prayer Man's aligns with Frazier's chin. 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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The importance of Lee Oswald's shirt for Prayer Man case is paramount. It was well understood by Sean Murphy back then in 2013. Actually, if anyone can prove that Oswald wore the dark CE150 in morning hours of Friday, November 22,  the possibility of Oswald being Prayer Man could be put aside. 

It seems it is time to recall some of Sean's posts on Oswald's shirt:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sean's post at "Oswald leaving the TSBD?" dated October 13, 2013:

Tommy, Prayer Man's shirt appears to be buttoned up fairly high.

Fritz's transcription of Bookhout's interrogation notes indicates that Oswald told Fritz he changed shirts back at his rooming house--the shirt he was wearing when arrested was not the shirt he went to work in--that was a "reddish" shirt.

A "maroon and grey cotton" shirt was found among Oswald's effects at N. Beckley Ave.: what I wouldn't give to see a photo of it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, Sean's post from October 23, and October 28:

Everyone is familiar with CE150, Oswald's brown arrest shirt:

c88J9y4.jpg

Less well known is CE151, which is described in WC Volume XVI as a light-brown shirt:

n4GE5KQ.jpg

Here it is:

OGwsIwJ.jpg

It is given a strikingly detailed description in a January 64 FBI list of Oswald's personal effects taken from the Paine residence and from Oswald's N. Beckley rooming house--

fbBg7Mq.jpg

It is not however included in a 27 November 63 Secret Service list of Oswald's clean clothes taken from Beckley:

fTQrAIe.jpg

 

This is hardly surprising: if the photo of the shirt is anything to go by, it is not a freshly laundered shirt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Sean's post from October 29, 2013:

Further confirmation (thanks to David Josephs and Robert Charles-Dunne) that this button-down shirt--

OGwsIwJ.jpg

was amongst the non-clean clothes found at Oswald's N. Beckley rooming house:

yhikT20.jpg

gEb43Ec.jpg

(Note re. the last document above: it relates, as the previous page in the document makes clear, to Oswald's Beckley residence rather than the Paine house.)

**

From Bookhout's 4th Interrogation Report:

He stated that after arriving at his apartment, he changed his shirt and trousers because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored long sleeved, shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers. He indicated that he had placed these articles of clothing in the lower drawer of his dresser.

From Thomas J. Kelley's 1st Interrogation Report:

He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. this was a red shirt, and he put it with his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.

**

CE151 is surely the "reddish" long-sleeved shirt with button-down collar that Oswald told Fritz he took off at his rooming house.

gwbDpv0.jpg

Again, I submit that...

ZACYFZQ.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Would you be willing to take a picture of yourself with marks at 5' 2 1/2'' , 5'4'' and 6'' next to you? This would clear the problem of the height at which Prayer Man's aligns with Frazier's chin. 

I don't believe that's necessary.

Just rotate your existing graphic 1.3° clockwise.

Disregard your yellow head marker.

Follow my two blue horizontal lines (both which eliminate the hair aspect).

The blue chin line runs where? in relationship to Fraziers chin.

Like this:

47096165644_68d5a8ab18_o.png

Edited by Chris Davidson
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Chris,

What's your point?  Just trying to understand what you are saying.

Why rotate the graphic 1.3?  Doesn't that change the perspective unnecessarily?

Your blue lines are placed to low on Frazier's head and Prayer Man's head.  That lowers the height of Prayer Man in relation to Frazier and seems nonsensical.  Why would you eliminate the hair aspect when by placing your lines lower your are eliminating part of Frazier's skull height and Prayer Man's skull height.

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19 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

headmeasures.jpg

 

Dimension 14 refers to head heights. There are 5 columns in the table above. The columns correspond to head heights (from short to large - left to right) in people divided into 5 quintiles based on their body heights. Thus, 9' 1/10' would correspond to a person of average body height. Buell Wesley Frazier was taller than average and that was the reason for selecting the two right-most values in my preliminary estimates.

Anyway, we have three values to compare for Buell Wesley Frazier's head:

The estimate according to the 7 1/2 rule:    9' 6/10''.

My estimate from comparing the plane 5' 2 1/2'' and 6':  9' 6'' .

The estimate that was given by wikipedia.org:     9' 7/10'' .

They are all three very close and make a strong case for Buell Wesley Frazier's head to measure 9' 6''. 

 

Andrej,

Regarding the quintile chart for head heights you posted, I wanted to pinpoint exactly where Frazier's height would fit in that. I thought it might be easy to find a chart that essentially converts height to quintile, after which your chart could be used to determine the precise average  head height.

This fits the bill:

Age-at-First-Birth-and-Lifetime-Number-o

 

Frazier is 6 ft. tall which is 183 cm. That is very close to the mean height of the fourth quintile, 180. So Frazier fits very close to the middle of the fourth quintile. (I could interpolate to get the precise figure, but getting that precise a figure would be meaningless given that we probably don't even have Frazier's exact height.)

According to your chart then, the average head height for men who are Frazier's height is 9.7".  (Which is what you said, though yours was a bit of an approximation if you skipped the extra step I took.)

My primary reason for posting this was to give you the handy height-to-quintile conversion table above.

 

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9 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

CE151 is surely the "reddish" long-sleeved shirt with button-down collar that Oswald told Fritz he took off at his rooming house.


I agree with you on that, Andrej. After reading all the snippets of testimony on both sides of this argument, it becomes clear to me that the shirt was a blend of red and grey fibers; Oswald saw the shirt up close and he knew it was red; others who saw the shirt casually thought it was a tan or light brown shirt. (Do you recall when I first described it, I thought it looked like a "muted red" color that was close to being light brown? I had to study it to see the red.)

Also, I want to say that I was amazed to see your comparative analysis of dirty areas of the shirt! I never would have thought of doing such a study. It certainly does look like the two shirts match in that respect, though Oswald must have had his sleeves rolled up. (I wonder if there a known photo of him where he has his long sleeves rolled up... that would be reassuring.)

I too am  baffled as to why the dirt doesn't show up on the color photo in the upper right breast area. It looks like that area has been washed. But why would that have been done???

 

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5 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

47096165644_68d5a8ab18_o.png

 


Just rotate your existing graphic 1.3° clockwise.

 

 

Chris,

It appears that you are wanting to rotate the photo as a means of undoing the effects of perspective. While doing so may result in achieving a fair first-order approximation, a far superior approximation can be achieved by doing what Andrej has done. And namely that is to place three or four rulers on the landing and using those to measure out planes of various heights that are all perfectly parallel with the landing. His 3D rendering gives him that capability, and he should use it.

It seems to me that the only thing Andrej's analysis doesn't account for -- other than not knowing the precise heights of the subjects -- is distortion introduced by the camera and lens.

 

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2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Andrej,

Regarding the quintile chart for head heights you posted, I wanted to pinpoint exactly where Frazier's height would fit in that. I thought it might be easy to find a chart that essentially converts height to quintile, after which your chart could be used to determine the precise average  head height.

This fits the bill:

Age-at-First-Birth-and-Lifetime-Number-o

 

Frazier is 6 ft. tall which is 183 cm. That is very close to the mean height of the fourth quintile, 180. So Frazier fits very close to the middle of the fourth quintile. (I could interpolate to get the precise figure, but getting that precise a figure would be meaningless given that we probably don't even have Frazier's exact height.)

According to your chart then, the average head height for men who are Frazier's height is 9.7".  (Which is what you said, though yours was a bit of an approximation if you skipped the extra step I took.)

My primary reason for posting this was to give you the handy height-to-quintile conversion table above.

 

Thanks, Sandy, this is a very useful table allowing to understand the location of Mr. Frazier's body height in the distribution of male population. It seems we are getting closer and closer to the bottom of things.

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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:


I agree with you on that, Andrej. After reading all the snippets of testimony on both sides of this argument, it becomes clear to me that the shirt was a blend of red and grey fibers; Oswald saw the shirt up close and he knew it was red; others who saw the shirt casually thought it was a tan or light brown shirt. (Do you recall when I first described it, I thought it looked like a "muted red" color that was close to being light brown? I had to study it to see the red.)

Also, I want to say that I was amazed to see your comparative analysis of dirty areas of the shirt! I never would have thought of doing such a study. It certainly does look like the two shirts match in that respect, though Oswald must have had his sleeves rolled up. (I wonder if there a known photo of him where he has his long sleeves rolled up... that would be reassuring.)

I too am  baffled as to why the dirt doesn't show up on the color photo in the upper right breast area. It looks like that area has been washed. But why would that have been done???

 

Sandy:

I understood from Sean's and Pat Speer's comments that the coloured picture CE151 was simply not available for researchers, and when it has been given to Pat Speer after a long struggle, it shows a substantial differences in the distribution of the dirty spots retalitive to CE151-WC, especially in the upper right chest below the clavicular bone. That spot could only be washed up, and this could be for innocent reasons (but who would clean up a piece of evidence?) or intentionally. Our own paranoid inclinations or conspiracy thinking would now decide what we believe was the reason. Given that CE151 is capable of proving Prayer Man's identity and that the Prayer man discussion was ongoing when Pat Speer was requesting CE151 from NARA, I would say that somebody had "seen" to CE151 before giving it to public.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

.... the Prayer man discussion was ongoing when Pat Speer was requesting CE151 from NARA, I would say that somebody had "seen" to CE151 before giving it to public.

 

LOL, you know what? That's the only logical conclusion! And I hate to think that way!
 

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