Tom Neal Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 According to the WC, the 91/38 found on the 6th floor of the TSBD contained 1 live round, and 3 shells were found on the floor of the "sniper's nest." This indicates the rifle contained 4 bullets prior to the firing of the 1st shot. A full clip holds 6 bullets. Can a clip containing only 4 rounds be inserted, or is a full clip a requirement? Of course it's possible that a full clip was inserted, 2 shots were fired, and then the rifle was transported to the TSBD, but it seems reasonable to assume a shooter would want the maximum number of shots possible to assure a kill. Before I go online seeking an owner of a 91/38, does anyone have contact information for an owner? TIA for any thoughts/info, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) Tom, You can load any number of rounds in the clip from 1-6. I've only seen them sold in full clips although it's really easy to manually load a pre-used clip. I've also seen newer ammunition sold with older clips. Here's a decent vid of a 91/38 owner firing - note he had to push out the clip manually a couple times after ejecting the last round. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZLbaC3Gp-8 The fact that they found less than a full clip's ammo has always made me think it's entirely bullsh_t. Note: the box displayed is ammo that is 3 lots (#6003) away from Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000. [edited to remove statement that 5 rounds were found - correct amount is 4] Edited September 16, 2015 by Chris Newton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 You can load any number of rounds in the clip from 1-6. Thanks Chris, Interesting that the shooter in the video thinks that the anniversary of JFK's murder is an appropriate time for target practice with the same type of rifle... So the 'shooter' could indeed have put 4 bullets in the clip, inserted the clip, and fired his 3 shots. Or if he did not have a clip, he could have loaded one bullet at time for each of the 3 shots, loaded a 4th and then decided not to fire it. My understanding is that no clip was listed in the inventory which is no surprise. The fact that they found less than a full clip's ammo has always made me think it's entirely bullsh_t.Amen to that! WC would of course state that LHO could only afford 4 bullets. Note: the box displayed is ammo that is 3 lots (#6003) away from Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000.Wonder where he got it, and how long he's had it? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Interesting that the shooter in the video thinks that the anniversary of JFK's murder is an appropriate time for target practice with the same type of rifle... I would have been impressed if he'd signed up for a paraffin test afterward and could show no traces on his face. I also note one of the things that EVERY LN-magic-bullet-aficionado avoids that is well demonstrated by this shooter - the fine art of AIMING - which is pretty much required to hit even a stationary target and will pretty much blow up any chance the shooter has to fire 2 rounds in 6 seconds (at a moving target) -let alone 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I understand the Carcano clip is ejected from the rifle when the last round in the clip is loaded into the rifle. Yet a photo of LT. DAY shows him holding a rifle with what appears to be a clip inserted. I ask: What is true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 According to the WC, the 91/38 found on the 6th floor of the TSBD contained 1 live round, and 3 shells were found on the floor of the "sniper's nest." This indicates the rifle contained 4 bullets prior to the firing of the 1st shot. A full clip holds 6 bullets. Can a clip containing only 4 rounds be inserted, or is a full clip a requirement? Of course it's possible that a full clip was inserted, 2 shots were fired, and then the rifle was transported to the TSBD, but it seems reasonable to assume a shooter would want the maximum number of shots possible to assure a kill. Before I go online seeking an owner of a 91/38, does anyone have contact information for an owner? TIA for any thoughts/info, Tom I read somewhere in the past month or so a fairly exhaustive assessment of the clip being forced in from above vs. inserted from below with and without 6 rounds, or 3, the possibilities of the clip working properly if damaged, etc... all since the 'rifle' is seen on film with the clip inserted outside of the TSBD. As best I remember there was no conclusion, just the assessment of the different possibilities - the concern of course being why the 'rifle' contained the clip in the street in the possession of Lt Day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I'm sure the exhaustive work by Robert P. has included all the answers to the questions above. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20250 My understanding is that the "natural" way to load the clip is top > down but that it might be possible from the bottom with some finagling and that the clips do occasionally stick because they become deformed. In the video above you don't see exposed clip and rounds when the weapon is loaded. If there are pictures of the TSBD weapon(s) that show the clip stuck inside- I haven't seen them. Be aware that that clip design is not unique for that weapon and that there are several (at least 2) different ones that function the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Three questions, since Chris seems well versed on this subject: 1. Was there a clip found at the scene? Sylvia Meagher seemed to doubt it. 2. Does the clip automatically disengage when its empty? 3. As everyone knows here, Blakey and Cornwell tried to bring down the timing problem by" point aiming". Can you possibly get off an accurate shot with this kind of rifle--with that kind of kick--by that method? Edited September 17, 2015 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Jim, That kick is entirely manageable and not bad in any way - first time shooters might have a problem with "kick" because they don't hold the weapon tight to their shoulder. The issue of "point aiming" versus lead is, (I believe), an argument of the style of how a sniper leads a target to engage it. The techniques are aiming at a point and judging when to fire based on when you anticipate "catching" that target at that point versus moving with the target, inducing the correct lead and firing while your weapon is moving with the target. I don't see how "point aiming" would help if more than one shot was required. These are professional sniper skills -"point aiming" is a very British SAS type technique, if memory serves me right. If I've misunderstood and gone off on the wrong tangent, excuse. I have never seen a clip shown in any pictures or films at the scene. There is testimony and we could find that pretty easy (maryferrell.org). Day says he removed the clip, if my memory is correct. I'm not the expert on the Carcano, Bob Prudhomme would skate circles around me, but I think an unbent clip should eject (through the bottom) when the last round is chambered. Funny - in the youtube clip above in 3 tries we never see the clip eject and we see the guy remove it manually once. Also that clip doesn't change my mind one bit about the quality of the Carcano - it is certainly a $12 gun. Long ago, on this forum I went over the Alyea film in some detail and I pointed out that the bolt looks to be open or partially open when it's being picked up. I just looked and can't find that thread but I'll post a link if it pops up. I think the late great Jack W. had some great input in that thread too. The Alyea film is our only visual evidence of what the weapon looked like when it was found. We don't see them clearly eject the round that was chambered when it was discovered so there really isn't a way for us to tell if a clip is present or not. If no clip was ever found that would be a major problem - in which case we know what to expect - a magic clip. The Alyea film might be staged which would then render it useless anyhow. Edited September 17, 2015 by Chris Newton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I think what Blakey and Cornwell were talking about was just pointing the rifle toward a target and getting off the shots without using the scope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I think what Blakey and Cornwell were talking about was just pointing the rifle toward a target and getting off the shots without using the scope. Yea, I gotcha see my last post above - but what your suggesting now, isn't that. I agree that the iron sight would have been a better aiming tool than an el cheapo scope at that range on that rifle. It would not mean however that the requirement to actually AIM is eliminated, it just increases the odds that he'd hit anything at all. So, maybe all the wild shots (middle of the street, Tague's curb) are attributable to Oswald while the Pros took care of business? But here's the problem with that: Oswald worked at the TSBD, he's looked out those windows. He knows what the range is. Why then would he NOT remove the scope? If he was trying to conceal it in a paper bag disassembled wouldn't that have been easier without the scope attached? Lets not even get into the fact the the scope wasn't capable of being zeroed without added shims. It makes no sense unless that weapon is a "throw down". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 The issue of "point aiming" versus lead is, (I believe), an argument of the style of how a sniper leads a target to engage it. The techniques are aiming at a point and judging when to fire based on when you anticipate "catching" that target at that point versus moving with the target, inducing the correct lead and firing while your weapon is moving with the target. I don't see how "point aiming" would help if more than one shot was required. These are professional sniper skills -"point aiming" is a very British SAS type technique, if memory serves me right. If I've misunderstood and gone off on the wrong tangent, excuse. Actually re-reading this... A Sniper firing a rifle could not "point-aim" or hope to "trap" a target the size of a human at a certain point "in space" if the target is moving in a car away from the shooter with two traffic lanes to work in. Add crosswind and slope to difficulty. That would be a feat of anticipation. So that technique would not work at all. When does it work? A sniper covering an alleyway, street, crossing point, window -a fixed point that the target has to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Tom, You can load any number of rounds in the clip from 1-6. I've only seen them sold in full clips although it's really easy to manually load a pre-used clip. I've also seen newer ammunition sold with older clips. Here's a decent vid of a 91/38 owner firing - note he had to push out the clip manually a couple times after ejecting the last round. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZLbaC3Gp-8 The fact that they found less than a full clip's ammo has always made me think it's entirely bullsh_t. Note: the box displayed is ammo that is 3 lots (#6003) away from Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000. [edited to remove statement that 5 rounds were found - correct amount is 4] Note: the box displayed is ammo that is 3 lots (#6003) away from Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000. Butttttt, it is a different type of bullet. CE399 is round nosed. These have a sharp point. Not the same thing at all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Glad you brought that up Ken. The ones that I have seen were also round nosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Note: the box displayed is ammo that is 3 lots (#6003) away from Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000. Butttttt, it is a different type of bullet. CE399 is round nosed. These have a sharp point. Not the same thing at all.... Jim, ken, Did you guys listen to the video above? The shooter tells you those are not the bullets from the box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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