Kenneth Drew Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Note: the box displayed is ammo that is 3 lots (#6003) away from Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000. Butttttt, it is a different type of bullet. CE399 is round nosed. These have a sharp point. Not the same thing at all.... Jim, ken, Did you guys listen to the video above? The shooter tells you those are not the bullets from the box No, didn't listen to video, but what is point of showing a lot no. on a box that is not related to the situation? To mislead, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Tom, You can load any number of rounds in the clip from 1-6. I've only seen them sold in full clips although it's really easy to manually load a pre-used clip. I've also seen newer ammunition sold with older clips. Here's a decent vid of a 91/38 owner firing - note he had to push out the clip manually a couple times after ejecting the last round. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZLbaC3Gp-8 The fact that they found less than a full clip's ammo has always made me think it's entirely bullsh_t. Note: the box displayed is ammo that is 3 lots (#6003) away from Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000. [edited to remove statement that 5 rounds were found - correct amount is 4] 6.5 seconds per shot without the longer time usually associated with using a scope. kinda slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) what is point of showing a lot no. on a box that is not related to the situation? He's a collector perhaps? The ammo in the box is collectable and worth 5x or more what a normal round costs. He's firing the cheap stuff. 6.5 seconds per shot without the longer time usually associated with using a scope. kinda slow. He's not in a hurry. He's aiming a a stationary target. It seems like a normal firing sequence to me. No, didn't listen to video... To mislead, perhaps? That's pretty lazy. [edited to partially remove my snide reply to lazy commentator] Edited September 17, 2015 by Chris Newton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 "So the 'shooter' could indeed have put 4 bullets in the clip, inserted the clip, and fired his 3 shots. Or if he did not have a clip, he could have loaded one bullet at time for each of the 3 shots, loaded a 4th and then decided not to fire it. My understanding is that no clip was listedin the inventory which is no surprise." Loading single cartridges into a Carcano is not feasible. As the bolt face of the Carcano bolt moves forward, it picks up a cartridge and the rimless base of the cartridge gets tucked into the extractor claw as the cartridge moves upward. This makes it possible to remove the spent cartridge after firing. If the cartridge were inserted into the chamber first, and you the attempted to close the bolt behind it, the cartridge base would be ahead of the extractor claw, instead of being tucked inside the claw. The bolt would not close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Loading single cartridges into a Carcano is not feasible. As the bolt face of the Carcano bolt moves forward, it picks up a cartridge and the rimless base of the cartridge gets tucked into the extractor claw as the cartridge moves upward. This makes it possible to remove the spent cartridge after firing. If the cartridge were inserted into the chamber first, and you the attempted to close the bolt behind it, the cartridge base would be ahead of the extractor claw, instead of being tucked inside the claw. The bolt would not close. Thanks for that explanation Bob. Is the clip expelled/released when the last round is chambered or when that round gets extracted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 "Note: the box displayed is ammo that is 3 lots (#6003) away from Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000." Hey Chris: Do you have a source for the above quote - i.e. that "Oswald's" ammo came from WCC Lot # 6000? Gary Murr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Hey Chris: Do you have a source for the above quote - i.e. that "Oswald's" ammo came from WCC Lot # 6000? Yup: http://www.ammo-one.com/65x52MMCAR.html at $24.95 per round a clip of the good stuff would cost approx. $150. No wonder the guy in the clip above was shooting something else. Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. The tests were run to determine the muzzle velocity of this rifle, using this ammunition, at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., on December 2, 1963, using two different lots of ammunition--Lot No. 6,000 and Lot No. 6,003. and... http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9891#relPageId=146 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 what is point of showing a lot no. on a box that is not related to the situation? He's a collector perhaps? The ammo in the box is collectable and worth 5x or more what a normal round costs. He's firing the cheap stuff. 6.5 seconds per shot without the longer time usually associated with using a scope. kinda slow. He's not in a hurry. He's aiming a a stationary target. It seems like a normal firing sequence to me. No, didn't listen to video... To mislead, perhaps? That's pretty lazy. [edited to partially remove my snide reply to lazy commentator] I wasn't really lazy, I just didn't see the relevance of watching the video, the only thing it adds is that the box of ammo is not relevant and it shows a slow firing rate, which you say is normal, and I'll agree with that. But I did go and watch the video after you pointed that out, I don't mind if you make snide comments, they are useful at times. (see in my signature, my snide comments about DVP) The only comments DVP ever makes are snide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Hey Chris: Do you have a source for the above quote - i.e. that "Oswald's" ammo came from WCC Lot # 6000? Yup: http://www.ammo-one.com/65x52MMCAR.html at $24.95 per round a clip of the good stuff would cost approx. $150. No wonder the guy in the clip above was shooting something else. Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. The tests were run to determine the muzzle velocity of this rifle, using this ammunition, at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., on December 2, 1963, using two different lots of ammunition--Lot No. 6,000 and Lot No. 6,003. and... http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9891#relPageId=146 Thanks for that link Chris. However I see that it only says 'allegedly' the lot number. I don't see any way it is possible for them to assign the cartridge shells found in the snipers nest to a 'lot no.' with any certainty. (but don't blame me for being lazy, I really did go to your link.) Edited September 17, 2015 by Kenneth Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Thanks for the prompt response, Chris. But actually neither of these sources are supportive of a claim that Oswald possessed 6.5mmMannlicher Carcano ammunition manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company and that he specifically had one of the 50,000 boxes [1 million rounds] that made up Lot # 6000. Indeed there is absolutely no proof that Oswald ever purchased or owned 6.5mm WCC MC ammunition. The Frazier quote regarding the muzzle velocity testing done at the NRL on December 2, 1963, refers to the only two lots of this ammunition that the FBI possessed, ammunition that they had acquired via their Springfield Field office and members of that staff who visited the WCC in East Alton, Illinois. As for the Mary Ferrell link to the C309 and C310 boxes of ammunition, these were two boxes acquired by the FBI from dealers in the Dallas area who actually handled this specific ammunition, John Thomas Masen [C309] and John M Brinegar [C310]. Masen had "pulled" some of the original WCC bullets from lots of this ammunition he had purchased and replaced them with "soft-point" hunting bullets. The bottom line is that the FBI were never able to ascertain and/or prove that Oswald ever owned/possessed/purchased any 6.5mm Mannlicer Carcano ammunition, of any manufacturer, American or European. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I just didn't see the relevance of watching the video, the only thing it adds is that the box of ammo is not relevant and it shows a slow firing rate Touche. You're right. The video was irrelevant to the question of loading less than 6 rounds in a Carcano clip. Sorry. Here's a relevant video: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Thanks for the prompt response, Chris Thanks, Gary. When I saw your post in this thread, I was thinking to myself, "oh boy, I'm in for it now" but I had stated: "Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000" so I was still on semi-soft murky ground. What is the latest that we (you) know about the ammo, if you can say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Thanks for the prompt response, Chris. But actually neither of these sources are supportive of a claim that Oswald possessed 6.5mmMannlicher Carcano ammunition manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company and that he specifically had one of the 50,000 boxes [1 million rounds] that made up Lot # 6000. Indeed there is absolutely no proof that Oswald ever purchased or owned 6.5mm WCC MC ammunition. The Frazier quote regarding the muzzle velocity testing done at the NRL on December 2, 1963, refers to the only two lots of this ammunition that the FBI possessed, ammunition that they had acquired via their Springfield Field office and members of that staff who visited the WCC in East Alton, Illinois. As for the Mary Ferrell link to the C309 and C310 boxes of ammunition, these were two boxes acquired by the FBI from dealers in the Dallas area who actually handled this specific ammunition, John Thomas Masen [C309] and John M Brinegar [C310]. Masen had "pulled" some of the original WCC bullets from lots of this ammunition he had purchased and replaced them with "soft-point" hunting bullets. The bottom line is that the FBI were never able to ascertain and/or prove that Oswald ever owned/possessed/purchased any 6.5mm Mannlicer Carcano ammunition, of any manufacturer, American or European. Gary And, of course, there was also no proof that LHO ever owned a Manlicher-Carcano rifle, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted September 17, 2015 Author Share Posted September 17, 2015 Loading single cartridges into a Carcano is not feasible. Thank you, Robert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted September 17, 2015 Author Share Posted September 17, 2015 Here's a relevant video: Thanks, Chris! That certainly answers my question without any doubts. For anyone who wants to skip to the 'loading a clip with only 4 bullets,' it begins at 5:48... Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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