Is it possible to insert the Carcano 91/38 clip with less than 6 bullets?

[Chris Newton]

Thanks, Chris!

Your welcome Tom. The video also demonstrates that the clip falls when the last round is chambered.

So, presumably a clip should have been found with the empty shells by the window?

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks, Chris!

Your welcome Tom. The video also demonstrates that the clip falls when the last round is chambered.

So, presumably a clip should have been found with the empty shells by the window?

Would the clip have been easier for the sniper to locate and pick up than the cases / shells?

--Tommy

[Kenneth Drew]

Thanks, Chris!

Your welcome Tom. The video also demonstrates that the clip falls when the last round is chambered.

So, presumably a clip should have been found with the empty shells by the window?

Would the clip have been easier for the sniper to locate and pick up than the cases / shells?

--Tommy

Tommy, is there an assumption on your part that there was a sniper there? I've never seen any proof of that.

[Chris Newton]

Would the clip have been easier for the sniper to locate and pick up than the cases / shells?

--Tommy

Tommy - you still don't "get" it. It's a magic clip.

[Chris Newton]

I wonder if either of the two local Dallas gunshops that carried the ammo supplied any officers (DPD or FBI or SS) with a "sample" clip?

[Gary Murr]

I wonder if either of the two local Dallas gunshops that carried the ammo supplied any officers (DPD or FBI or SS) with a "sample" clip?

Hey Chris:

As far as a I can ascertain, based upon my 8+ years of intensive research on this particular ammunition, I know of no instance in which these specific clips were offered up for "sale" as a separate entity. Understandably Italian manufacturers such as S.M.I. produced literally millions of these clips over four decades beginning in the late stages of the 19th century. I have acquired during my research over 1000 copies of various popular American "gun" magazines spanning 1951 thru 1968 and I know of no add placed in any of these magazines which indicate the clip in question for sale as a separate item. Many "distributors", including Sam Cummings and Interarmco, sold 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano ammunition of Italian make "complete" with the clips included. There is evidence which suggests that many of the Italian soldiers who used the Carcano during WW II considered the clip as a "throw-away" item, particularly during the heat of battle. The clips were manufactured in various metals, including brass and steel, and I have found in my minor collection of 22 such clips that those manufactured from brass are somewhat more prone to pliability than those made from steel. And while I agree that in theory the clip should be ejected from the Carcano weapon once the last bullet is chambered, they have been known to jam and stay in the weapon. I may be wrong but I do not know of any specific instance in which this failure to eject did occur in any of the testing procedures done with C2766 - the alleged Carcano of the assassination event. On the other hand I also cannot specifically state that anyone, including the FBI, used the clip said to have been found in/with the weapon from the sixth floor of the TSBD, during these same test procedures. I can tell you that I have handled this brass clip at NARA and it is slightly bent; whether it was in that condition when collected by the DPD is not known, at least to me.

FWIW

Gary

[Chris Newton]

Thanks Gary,

Thanks for your detailed comments.

My thought, entirely supposition, based on the lack of any mention or photo of a clip anywhere on the sixth floor when the weapon was found, is that if the weapon and shells were "planted" by persons that didn't know a clip was required to fire the weapon ...then at some point a clip would have to be acquired from someplace. A logical source have been the local gunshops that were questioned about ammo they sold.

I'm aware of the tendency for some clips to get stuck (as inadvertently demonstrated by a video in the second post of this thread) especially when they are bent a little.

[Thomas Graves]

Would the clip have been easier for the sniper to locate and pick up than the cases / shells?

--Tommy

Tommy - you still don't "get" it. It's a magic clip.

Chris,

I was just wondering if that would be a plausible argument a LNer could make.

--Tommy

Edited September 17, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

I was just wondering if that would be a plausible argument a LNer could make.

I always wondered what the point was of "hiding" the weapon if one just left the shell husks rolling around the floor in the nest.

So the "Sixth Floor Killer" pocketed the clip and presumably whatever tool (screwdriver) he used to help him re-assemble the weapon and then slipped the rifle between some boxes on the other side of the room (knowing this would slow down the DPD?). Is that plausible?

[Tom Neal]

Thanks, Chris!

Your welcome Tom. The video also demonstrates that the clip falls when the last round is chambered.

So, presumably a clip should have been found with the empty shells by the window?

From my files:

Carl Day leaving the TSBD with rifle. I do not have the name of the [news?] photographer.

Signed statement from Carl Day.

CE-575:

Note that it says "Clip for Mannlicher-Carcano." If found inserted in the rifle, shouldn't it state this? From the text, this could be any clip for an MC to show what the clip looks like...

Tom

[Chris Newton]

Hey Tom,

From the text, this could be any clip for an MC to show what the clip looks like...

Yes. That's a problem. Gary Murr or Bob P. would be a better expert than I on the bonafides of the clip, I'm sure.

The photo in your post with the BIG Red Arrow "Clip" - I'm not certain at all that's a clip. If it were it would have to be sticking way out of the bottom and we don't see anything like that in the Alyea Film. My understanding is they get stuck inside and are therefore not visible or they eject.

There is an old article here that had some great info too:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1539

Edited September 18, 2015 by Chris Newton

[Tom Neal]

The photo in your post with the BIG Red Arrow "Clip" - I'm not certain at all that's a clip. If it were it would have to be sticking way out of the bottom and we don't see anything like that in the Ayea Film. My understanding is they get stuck inside and are therefore not visible or they eject.

Hi Chris,

I agree with you 100% regarding the clip. That photo is from my files and had the arrow on it when I found it. If I had added the arrow myself, I would have added a question mark after the word "clip." When the clip is inserted it doesn't project below the rifle. I don't know if the clip could partially eject and get hung up, or not.

More importantly, to my eye anyway, I don't believe that projection should be in such deep shadow. To me it appears that the rectangular projection is actually part of the street/sidewalk shadow that appears prominently in this photo. I'd like to see a video or additional photos before or after this was taken. It also appears to me that this "clip" is not at the proper location on the rifle to actually BE a partially ejected clip.

From the film you uploaded, you can see where the clip is ejected relative to the bolt and the trigger. Unfortunately, in the photo of Day carrying the rifle, the shoulder strap completely blocks the view of this area.

Tom

Edited September 18, 2015 by Tom Neal

[Tom Neal]

Here's a frame from the video of Carl Day carrying the rifle from the TSBD:

Surprisingly to me, the same projection appears where the clip should eject after the last round is chambered.

Tom

[Chris Newton]

Tom,

At the 1:59 mark of the Alyea film clip I posted, Day is dusting the rifle for prints and holding the bottom of the rifle facing the camera. I see a hole and no clip.

Maybe there was something shoved into that hole later. I don't know.

[Tom Neal]

At the 1:59 mark of the Alyea film clip I posted, Day is dusting the rifle for prints and holding the bottom of the rifle facing the camera. I see a hole and no clip.

Maybe there was something shoved into that hole later. I don't know.

Chris,

At no time in the video do I see even a hint of a clip projecting from the rifle. At about 1:00 into the video, Day is poking his index finger at the bottom of the rifle. He may be pointing at something initially, but then he seems to be doing something more than that. Fritz may be doing something, also. If they were further back on the rifle, closer to the trigger, I might suspect they were removing or attempting to remove the clip through the bottom of the magazine.

The removal of the rifle from the boxes, and Day handing it to Fritz occurs twice in the video. Once with a large glare spot, and later without the glare. A re-enactment? Or two films taken at the same time? In the video someone takes film of a camera filming the bullets on the floor, so there are at least two cameras present.

The picture below is from a different video than the one you posted. I don't know where or when this video was taken, but there certainly isn't any clip protruding from the bottom of the rifle.

This background doesn't look the TSBD to me, in fact I believe it's the Dallas Police Station, and if the video was taken elsewhere, then where is the clip that was visible when Day exited the TSBD?

Tom

Edited September 18, 2015 by Tom Neal