Is it possible to insert the Carcano 91/38 clip with less than 6 bullets?

[Tom Neal]

In Barry Krusch's video, on one of the hulls are the letters "DA" followed by an angled line that IMHO is a "Y". If true, and JC Day is consistent in how he initials evidence, he has scratched "DAY" in upper case letters.

Tom

while it appears there might be something scratched on it, it's not clear who's mark it might be. a J is not consistent with DAY.

Kenneth,

If you re-read my post, I stated "JC Day" (see above) as the Lieutenant's name. i.e. John Carl Day.

If that is a "J" and IF it was made by JC Day, I can't imagine why he would only use his first initial "J", especially as he went by his middle name Carl. A single initial is unlikely to be considered an acceptable evidence mark. Since there ARE some vertical and horizontal lines to the left of the "J", it seems likely that at least one letter is/was located to the left of the "J." It seems more likely the first initial is illegible, and the "J" represents someone's last name.

To my eye, the "J" is too distinct to be dismissed as random scratches.

Tom

[Kenneth Drew]

In Barry Krusch's video, on one of the hulls are the letters "DA" followed by an angled line that IMHO is a "Y". If true, and JC Day is consistent in how he initials evidence, he has scratched "DAY" in upper case letters.

Tom

while it appears there might be something scratched on it, it's not clear who's mark it might be. a J is not consistent with DAY.

Kenneth,

If you re-read my post, I stated "JC Day" (see above) as the Lieutenant's name. i.e. John Carl Day.

If that is a "J" and IF it was made by JC Day, I can't imagine why he would only use his first initial "J", especially as he went by his middle name Carl. A single initial is unlikely to be considered an acceptable evidence mark. Since there ARE some vertical and horizontal lines to the left of the "J", it seems likely that at least one letter is/was located to the left of the "J." It seems more likely the first initial is illegible, and the "J" represents someone's last name.

To my eye, the "J" is too distinct to be dismissed as ra Tondom scratches.

Tom

I agree Tom and it seems unlikely that Day would use a J since it seemed he traditionally used DAY. It does appear to be a J.

[Tom Neal]

DELETED DOUBLE POST

Edited September 24, 2015 by Tom Neal

[Tom Neal]

The clip from C14 (the FBI designation of the alleged assassination rifle) appears in two Commission Exhibits; CE 574 and CE 575.

Interestingly enough, CE 574 is labeled "CLIP FROM C14 RIFLE LOADED WITH SIX CARTRIDGES" and CE 575 is labeled "CLIP FROM C14 RIFLE." If this is the same clip from the rifle, is it proper to present one clip in two different Commission Exhibits? If it's the same clip shouldn't both photos be in CE 575 to avoid confusion?

Tom

[Robert Prudhomme]

I thought I'd read it somewhere - from the HSCA firearms panel, testimony of Lutz (emphasis mine):

Mr. LUTZ. This rifle can be loaded in two ways. If an individual wanted to insert a single cartridge, a separate clip would not be required. The bolt would be opened. Normally the rifle would be pointed down or in some way so that the cartridge could be fed in by hand into the chamber area of the rifle. Then the bolt would be closed on that cartridge and you would be able to fire the rifle with a single round.

The normal procedure to load the rifle with more than one round would be to insert a number of cartridges, one through six, in the clip, in this case a brass clip. They are inserted into this and it acts as a retainer or a holder for the cartridges. They are then inserted into the open area by pushing it down. The bottom of the bottom cartridge is forcing the follower all the way to the bottom. It pushes it down and is forced to the extreme bottom and goes into a locked position allowing you then to push the bolt handle forward stripping the first cartridge from the top of the clip and inserting it into the chamber area of the rifle.

Lutz is full of crap. While there are some rifles that it is possible to push a cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt behind it, the Carcano is not one of them.

Shown below is the face of a Carcano bolt:

On the bottom of the bolt face can be seen something called an "extractor claw", whose sole purpose is to remove the empty cartridge from the chamber after firing. As the bolt moves forward to pick up a cartridge from the magazine, the cartridge gets bumped up out of the magazine and the spring loaded "elevator bar" pushes the base of the cartridge up into the bolt face. If everything goes correctly, the cartridge base is tucked neatly into the bolt face, with the extractor claw seated into the groove at the base of the cartridge, and the cartridge is loaded into the chamber by what the Mauser people referred to as "controlled feed".

I could not find a good photo of a Carcano with a cartridge in the bolt face but I found a photo of a German Mauser K98 which possesses virtually the same style of action.

Unknown make of rifle with Mauser action. See how the groove at the base of the cartridge is seated onto the extractor claw.

IF you attempted to load a cartridge into the chamber by hand, you will find, with the cartridge base ahead of the extractor claw, it will be impossible to even close the bolt, as the placing of the cartridge ahead of the bolt face adds to the total length of cartridge and bolt. And, if you try to force it, you will have another problem; that being trying to remove the cartridge from the chamber.

Years ago, I owned a bolt action rifle made by the Midland Gun Co. of Birmingham, England. It was chambered for .308 cartridges and equipped with a Mauser action. As the .308 cartridge is somewhat shorter than other military cartridges, I came to learn that it did not function all that well in the Mauser action. What would happen is that, as the bolt was pushing the cartridge forward out of the magazine, instead of coming upwards smoothly as the nose of the cartridge rode up on the ramp, it would bump too abruptly; causing the cartridge base to miss the extractor claw. As this left the cartridge AHEAD of the extractor claw, without me knowing it, I would try to close the bolt and, of course, it would not close. In fact, the cartridge would jam in the chamber, and I used to have to keep a cleaning rod with me so I could push the cartridge back out from the muzzle of the barrel.

This is the reason more modern rifle bolts, such as those made by Remington, while keeping the Mauser forward locking lugs, changed from controlled feed to a spring loaded extractor claw. This type of action allows you to hand load a cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt behind it, as the spring loaded extractor claw will snap over the cartridge base as it moves forward.

It has been pointed out to me that many captured 6.5mm Carcano rifles were taken back to Nazi Germany and converted to fire the 8(7.92)x57 mm Mauser cartridge. This was a rather desperate effort, towards the end of the war, and the converted rifles were all single shot rifles.

This has led many researchers to draw the erroneous conclusion that it is possible to load cartridges into a Carcano, one at a time and without a clip but, alas, nothing could be further from the truth. The rifles still had the Mauser bolt with the extractor claw used in the "controlled feed" system, and you could not close the bolt behind a cartridge fed by hand into the chamber.

What actually occurred is the company doing the conversions fabricated a wooden block that fit into the space normally occupied by the clip, and it was held in place by the lock that normally held the clip in place. On the top of this wooden block was carved a recess in the shape of a 7.92x57 Mauser cartridge. It positioned the cartridge in such a way that, when the bolt came forward, it picked up the cartridge in the normal fashion, holding it with the extractor claw, and delivered it into the chamber of the rifle.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Ian Lloyd]

Being merely one of the '..."educated" city folk...' (post #58), I'm wondering if it wouldn't have been easier to just grind off the extractor claw?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Being merely one of the '..."educated" city folk...' (post #58), I'm wondering if it wouldn't have been easier to just grind off the extractor claw?

You could, Ian, but then how would you extract an empty cartridge from the chamber after the cartridge is fired?

[Ian Lloyd]

Ha! Good point Bob, overlooked entirely by me. As you can no doubt tell, I am no gun expert!...

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Ian

Even the FBI's so called firearms "expert", SA Robert A. Frazier, made the mistaken assumption that C2766, with its Mauser bolt, could be used without the clip, as a single shot rifle, by manually loading one cartridge at a time.

"Mr. McCLOY - Can you use that rifle without the clip?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; you can.
Mr. McCLOY - What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. FRAZIER - It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one shot at a time.
Mr. McCLOY - The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. McCLOY - When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY - The same as the .30-06?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven."

Garbage in, garbage out......