JFK: FROM PARKLAND TO BETHESDA out now!

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Von Pein,

A question. Just a question. Assume arguendo there was a high-level conspiracy to kill JFK. I know you don't believe this, but you're a reasonable person, and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you, for sake of argument only, to make an assumption you otherwise reject.

If you're willing to make this assumption strictly for the purpose I'm asking you to make it, I ask for your opinion. Given the assumption, do you think the conspirators (or some subset thereof) would stop at anything to cover their tracks and obscure the facts of the assassination?

I don't think they would, but I'd like to know what you think. I'm not a conspiracy-lite guy, BTW. For me, it was unbridled conspiracy or no conspiracy.

[David Von Pein]

David Von Pein,

A question. Just a question. Assume arguendo there was a high-level conspiracy to kill JFK. I know you don't believe this, but you're a reasonable person, and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you, for sake of argument only, to make an assumption you otherwise reject.

If you're willing to make this assumption strictly for the purpose I'm asking you to make it, I ask for your opinion. Given the assumption, do you think the conspirators (or some subset thereof) would stop at anything to cover their tracks and obscure the facts of the assassination?

I don't think they would, but I'd like to know what you think. I'm not a conspiracy-lite guy, BTW. For me, it was unbridled conspiracy or no conspiracy.

Given that set of circumstances and alleged conditions (with "high level" being the key words), then the answer to your inquiry is probably No, they would likely stop at nothing to try and guarantee success in covering their tracks.

But just how HIGH (in a "high-level conspiracy") do you think it went? How many people? And what did each of the conspirators truly know about the assassination plot you are alleging? And how did they manage to manipulate Lee Oswald on both Nov. 21 and Nov. 22 in order to make it truly SEEM like he was a lone assassin? And how did "they" manage to get Oswald to act so guilty after the assassination (if, that is, you think Oswald was really innocent of firing any shots at the President)?

In my opinion, to believe in ANY conspiracy in the JFK case ("high level" or otherwise, except for perhaps a small two-man plot involving Oswald and one other unknown person who chickened out at the last minute and decided not to aid Oswald whatsoever on Assassination Day), you'd have to believe that the conspirators/henchmen/assassins/plotters were able to do something quite remarkable --- They were able to make Lee Harvey Oswald HIMSELF (via his own actions and the lies he told on Nov. 21 and 22) act like a lone assassin. And a subservient puppet like that doesn't come along every day of the week.

Edited October 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

I read the source for this, CE 1799. Just a report written by some anonymous person. Not exactly impressive evidence when compared to a missing Federal Reserve Bank stamp.

I don't know where Bugs got the 7 hour computers-humming information.

I'm not sure where Vince Bugliosi got the "7 hours" information either, but I think it's a reasonable figure. Vincent's "7 hours" remark comes in his chronological examination of the events as presented by Mr. Bugliosi in his "Four Days In November" chapter of "Reclaiming History", and Vince has it listed as something that took place at about 7:00 PM CST on Saturday, November 23rd, which was well more than 24 hours after the President's assassination. That would mean that people in Alexandria would have started searching for the original money order at around 12:00 Noon (Dallas time) on November 23. Sounds about right to me.

However, there is a document which provides a lot of additional details about the discovery of the original postal money order that was found in Alexandria, Virginia, on the night of 11/23/63. It's a four-page Secret Service report that appears in Commission Document No. 87, right here:

MaryFerrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=118

Edited October 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Jon G. Tidd]

DVP,

Thanks. You write:

"you'd have to believe that the conspirators/henchmen/assassins/plotters were able to do something quite remarkable --- They were able to make Lee Harvey Oswald HIMSELF (via his own actions and the lies he told on Nov. 21 and 22) act like a lone assassin."

I agree, and many pro-conspirators here disagree. But you put your finger on it, IMO.

I believe "Oswald" (Marina's husband) was a walking, talking patsy. I believe he set himself up unwittingly, as a Marxist sympathizer. Many CT-ers believe Oswald was set up by the CIA. Oswald IMO was self-actuated. He was his own person.

You believe Oswald killed JFK. I believe an intelligence service spotted him (that's a key event) and saw it could make use of him.

Let me know if you want to know about "spotting" and "assessing".

[David Von Pein]

From "Harvey and Lee." by John Armstrong....

"All US Postal Money orders have unique serial numbers. In the fall of 1962, Oswald purchased numerous money orders from the same downtown post office and mailed them to Washington, DC in order to repay a loan from the government for his travel expenses incurred when he returned to the USA from Russia. These money orders were purchased in numerical sequence beginning in November, 1962. These serial numbers show that some 1200 money orders per week were purchased at the downtown post office in Dallas. At this rate we see that Oswald's alleged purchase of a money order on March 12, 1963 should have been numbered 2,202,011,935. But the serial number of the money order published in the Warren Volumes was more than 118,000 numbers higher. At the rate of 1200 money order per week, this money order should have been purchased in late 1964 or early 1965. In other words, this money order could easily have been pulled from a stack of fresh, unsold money orders by a postal official in Dallas, sometime after the assassination, and then given to the FBI. A close look at the details surrounding the "finding" of the money order the day after the assassination strongly suggests that this is what happened."

Any comments, Dave?

Why couldn't the Dallas post office have simply run out of their supply of blank U.S. Postal money orders shortly before Oswald purchased his M.O. on March 12th? It's fairly obvious to me that that is what happened.

Does John Armstrong really think that the Dallas post office had an unlimited supply of money orders on hand at all times? How silly.

At some point, the supply of money orders would run low and the Dallas post office would replenish its stock. And when they do get fresh stock, the serial numbers are, of course, going to be much higher than the ones they just ran out of, since they are "U.S. POSTAL MONEY ORDERS" with unique serial numbers attached to each one and are being continuously supplied to post offices and other institutions all around the entire country, not just the Main Post Office branch in Dallas, Texas.

Why on Earth is my above "Ran out of stock and simply replenished their supply with money orders that obviously would have much higher serial numbers" explanation not even to be considered by conspiracy theorists like John Armstrong?

~big shrug~

Edited October 29, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

BTW, here's another official document (an FBI FD-302 report this time) which verifies that U.S. Postal Money Order #2,202,130,462, signed by "A. Hidell", was in the possession of the FBI in Washington on November 24, 1963 (the date in the lower left corner of this report)....

MaryFerrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95643#relPageId=20

A quote from the above FBI report:

"This money order was hand carried to the FBI Laboratory where it was turned over to Special Agent James T. Freeman."

Edited October 29, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

Why on Earth is my above "Ran out of stock and simply replenished their supply with money orders that obviously would have much higher serial numbers" explanation not even to be considered by conspiracy theorists like John Armstrong?

~big shrug~

What you say here is precisely what occurred to me when I first read about the supposed discrepancy. But I'm willing to listen if someone says there's a reason that wouldn't be the case. (Perhaps, for example, money orders subsequently issued by that post office had the smaller serial numbers... and only Oswald got the high number.)

[Kenneth Drew]

As long as they can pretend Oswald didn't fire a shot at anyone on 11/22, most Internet CTers are happy.

Well, there *is* more evidence that Oswald didn't fire the rifle that day than there is that he did.

And there *is* more evidence that Oswald was framed as the buyer of the Carcano than there is that he actually bought it.

And for your information, David, it isn't the goal of CTers to clear Oswald's name. It is their goal to find the truth.

But deep down you know that, don't you David.

Well, there *is* more evidence that Oswald didn't fire the rifle that day than there is that he did. Absolutely, as there is absolutely no evidence that he fired any weapon on that day.

And there *is* more evidence that Oswald was framed as the buyer of the Carcano than there is that he actually bought it. Another easy one as there is absolutely no evidence that he bought a rifle.

But deep down you know that, don't you David. Actually, yes, he does, but he is not free to believe what he would like to. See my signature below as a quote from DVP. He clearly says he is not free to believe what he chooses.

Yes Sandy, DVP likes to throw up a few links and thinks he has 'proven' something. You've heard of 'smoke and mirrors'.

[Kenneth Drew]

Sandy,

The C2766 rifle was positively mailed by Klein's to Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman No. 7 proves that fact. And the money order was stamped by Klein's. So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle, and Klein's did the processing on their end by depositing it into their bank account. And that money order has Oswald's writing all over it.

Oswald ordered that rifle.

Klein's shipped that rifle to PO Box 2915.

Klein's received payment for that rifle (otherwise, of course, they never would have generated the order form which became Waldman Exhibit No. 7).

Case closed.

I don't see Oswald's name on any of those orders or forms. Are you making that up?

[Kenneth Drew]

Sandy,

You think Klein's would have shipped a rifle to PO Box 2915 (which they definitely did) WITHOUT being paid for the merchandise?

How silly.

Let me guess -- you think Waldman #7 is a fake document too. Right?

Related Links (re: bank stamps):

educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17428&page=4#entry220887

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-947.html

my but your dancing again, David... Sandy's question is relevant, well?

my but your dancing again, David he's a dancing machine.

[Kenneth Drew]

You conceded when you didn't answer my question, even after I had posted it a second time.

In both your responses you completely ignored the fact that the money order had not been processed by a Federal Reserve Bank. As though that isn't an important point.

So I won the debate by default. That's what happens when one doesn't "show up" for a debate.

As for how LHO's handwriting got "all over" the money order, I would suggest the same way my dad's handwriting got all over the excuse notes I wrote to my home-room teacher explaining why I had been absent from school. Forging someone's handwriting isn't necessarily a difficult feat, and isn't an unheard of thing. Given that the money order is evidence that someone was attempting to frame Oswald, as I have demonstrated, it follows that the source of the handwriting be considered suspect as well.

Naturally. Nothing new or surprising there. Everything is "suspect" to a conspiracy theorist.

So, with respect to the evidence and the testimony associated with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle purchase, the following things would have to be true, according to many CTers....

...William Waldman of Klein's was a big fat [L-word].

...Oswald's writing was forged on the money order.

...Oswald's writing was forged on the American Rifleman order form for the rifle.

...Oswald's writing was forged on the envelope that housed the M.O. and the order form.

...Waldman Exhibit No. 7 is a complete forgery.

...The FBI agents who helped search the Klein's files on late November 22 and early November 23 must have been told to lie their asses off if they were ever to be asked this question: Did you help search the Klein's records in Chicago and were you present when the microfilmed records were found in those files which included an order form clipped from a magazine which had the name "A. Hidell" on it, plus the internal Klein's order blank (Waldman #7), which verified that a rifle bearing the serial number "C2766" was shipped by Klein's to "A. Hidell" at P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas, on March 20, 1963? .... Because, according to many conspiracy theorists, those FBI agents actually witnessed the retrieval of no such "Hidell" microfilmed records in the Klein's files at all.

...The whole $21.45 money order, in every respect, is a fraudulent document (and not just Oswald's allegedly forged handwriting) --- e.g., the "GPO; Mar. 12" and "$21.45" markings that are stamped on the front of the money order. And the Klein's "Pay to the order" stamp on the back is fake too (i.e., somebody stole Klein's rubber stamp [or created a perfect duplicate] and stamped the phony money order in order to fool everybody into thinking Klein's really did deposit the M.O. into its First National Bank account --- I'd love to see some proof to show that this hunk of fakery ever happened too; but, as always, no CTer on Earth can possibly prove that the "PAY TO THE ORDER" stamp on CE788 is a fraudulent Klein's endorsement).

See how silly this starts to get really fast when you have to pretend that Lee Harvey Oswald never ordered Rifle C2766 from Klein's Sporting Goods? Embarrassing, isn't it, Sandy? Yes, it is indeed.

Regarding the discovery of the original money order that was found in Virginia, hundreds of miles from the offices of Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, there are these excerpts from Vincent Bugliosi's book:

"[9:00 AM CST, 11/23/63] Although the FBI already has a microfilmed copy of the money order used to purchase the Carcano rifle, in preparing for trial prosecutors always want the original document. After depositing the money order into its bank account, Klein's, of course, no longer had the original money order.

[...]

[7:00 PM CST, 11/23/63] The IBM computers at the U.S. Postal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, have been humming for nearly seven hours now...searching for the original money order used to purchase the assassination weapon. There's no telling how many man-hours it might take to do a manual search.

Suddenly, a match is found, and the money order is located. The center rushes the original money order by special courier to the chief of the Secret Service in Washington. A handwriting analysis by a questioned-documents expert for the Department of the Treasury shows that the handwriting on the money order is that of Lee Harvey Oswald.*

If there is one thing that is now unquestionably certain, it is that Lee Harvey Oswald ordered and paid for the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination."

-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 206 and 237 of "Reclaiming History" ©2007

* Sources -- CE1799 @ 23 H 419 and Warren Commission Testimony of Alwyn Cole @ 4 H 373

the following things would have to be true, according to many CTers....

...William Waldman of Klein's was a big fat [L-word].

...Oswald's writing was forged on the money order.

...Oswald's writing was forged on the American Rifleman order form for the rifle.

...Oswald's writing was forged on the envelope that housed the M.O. and the order form.

...Waldman Exhibit No. 7 is a complete forgery.

Not true at all. None of it has to be true. LHO was never involved with any of that. no one associated with LHO was involved.

[Kenneth Drew]

As for the lack of any bank stamps appearing on the back of Oswald's postal money order, I don't have a definitive answer to explain it. But I'd be willing to bet the farm that there IS a reasonable and non-conspiratorial answer to explain the lack of markings on the back of that document without resorting to the conclusion that the money order was manufactured and faked by a group of conspirators in a complicated and intricate effort to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for John F. Kennedy's murder.

And I know that conspiracy theorists who think Oswald never ordered a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in early 1963 have a heck of a lot MORE evidence to explain away than I do -- such as all this stuff.

And I know that conspiracy theorists who think Oswald never ordered a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in early 1963 have a heck of a lot MORE evidence to explain away than I do --

Surely the laugh of the day. There is absolutely no evidence that proves LHO was associated with that rifle, but someone has to prove he didn't buy it. Maybe some one should consider attempting to prove he did buy it. I know a lot have tried, but no one has come close yet and never will. You can't prove something to be true if it's not true.

[David Von Pein]

There is absolutely no evidence that proves LHO was associated with that rifle...

Incredible.

The amount of denial it takes to write a sentence like the one above is staggering.

Edited November 1, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Chris Newton]

Kenneth Drew said

There is absolutely no evidence that proves LHO was associated with that rifle...

Incredible.

The amount of denial it takes to write a sentence like the one above is staggering.

Kenneth Drew said

There is absolutely no evidence that proves LHO was associated with that rifle...

3. Action. We do not recommend that discussion of the assassination question be initiated where it is not already taking place. Where discussion is active [business] addresses are requested:

a. To discuss the publicity problem with friendly elite contacts (especially politicians and editors), pointing out that the Warren Commission made as thorough an investigation as humanly possible, that the charges of the critics are without serious foundation, and that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition. Point out also that parts of the conspiracy talk appear to be deliberately generated by Communist propagandists. Urge them to use their influence to discourage unfounded and irresponsible speculation.

b. To employ propaganda assets to [negate] and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should pro- vide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are

(I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in,

(II) politically interested,

(III) financially interested,

(IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or

(V) infatuated with their own theories.

[David Von Pein]

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html

Edited November 7, 2015 by David Von Pein