Great New Movie Spells out the Case for Oswald as Prayer Man

[Thomas Graves]

It doesn't really matter exactly where Calvery was down Elm St. She simply did not have the time to run that far back up the street.

However, three women gave statements to the FBI corroborating her FBI statement, in that she was standing just east of the Stemmons Freeway sign when the assassination took place, and her own FBI statement stated JFK was directly in front of her at the time of the first shot, for whatever that is worth.

She came up the sidewalk and stopped to talk to Lovelady and Shelley on the concrete island. RAN UPHILL I might add. Aren't those two an awful long ways across the street, considering this conversation just took place? Hell, Baker hasn't even crossed the Elm St. extension yet, and they've already had their chat with Calvery and are halfway to the rail yard.

Shouldn't we be able to see Calvery between the concrete island and the TSBD steps??

P.S.

Considering Calvery would have come up the Elm St. sidewalk, the running woman in Darnell is on the wrong side of the Elm St. extension to be Calvery.

Dear Robert,

Please allow me to rephrase my question.

Which of the women in the extant photographs and films is Gloria Calvery, in your humble opinion? I'm talking, of course, about the photographs and films taken in the general Dealey Plaza area immediately before, during, or immediately after the assassination.

Another way of asking that question is, "Based on the photographic evidence, where was Gloria Calvery standing immediately before, during, or immediately after the assassination?"

Or am I assuming too much? Are you just going on her (perhaps unsigned) statement to the notorious FBI?

There were three women standing together by the Stemmons sign. Didn't you decide that the dark-complected one couldn't possibly have been Calvery, despite what my waitress friend said?

So what about the woman I helped you to "see" in the Altgens 6 photo, standing "behind" another woman near the Thornton sign?

Do you think she is Calvery?

Seein' as how you think Shelley probably fibbed a little about his activities after the assassination (as did probably Lovelady, Truly, and maybe even Baker), who's to say Gloria didn't fib a little to help cover for her buddy Shelley?

In other words, maybe they didn't meet on the "island" at all.

Say, wouldn't it be something if Gloria Jean Calvery, herself, shot JFK from an upper floor of the TSBD? Maybe with a little help from Jack Dougherty? And wouldn't it be something if she wasn't "covering" for Shelley and Lovelady, but they were actually covering for her? With a little help from the notorious FBI, of course.

Boy oh boy, that would really be something...

--Tommy

Bumped for Robert Prudhomme because I was still editing and adding the final few sentences when he posted a response.

PS Let's face it Bob. If Calvery was standing where she said she was standing (and with whom she said she was standing), it should be very easy indeed to spot her in the photographs and films that were taken during the motorcade's passing down Elm Street. And in Couch / Darnell, as well.

So, where is she?

Just sayin'...

Edited December 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

That's what I would like to know, Thomas. I sincerely believe Shelley had a meeting with her on the concrete island, simply because I cannot see a logical reason for him to lie about this.

How could they possibly have had this meeting prior to Baker's arrival, if he was inside the TSBD in 15-22 seconds, and at the island at 10-15 seconds? It simply makes no sense at all. If this was all true, Calvery should either still be on the concrete island in Darnell, or between the island and the steps. I simply refuse to believe Calvery made it inside the building before Baker did.

Thomas, we may never know exactly what happened that day but, my God, man, don't you smell a rat here, and doesn't it seem like there is something wrong with everybody's story, including Calvery, Shelley, Lovelady, Baker and Truly?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Falling asleep here. G'night.

[Thomas Graves]

That's what I would like to know, Thomas. I sincerely believe Shelley had a meeting with her on the concrete island, simply because I cannot see a logical reason for him to lie about this.

How could they possibly have had this meeting prior to Baker's arrival, if he was inside the TSBD in 15-22 seconds, and at the island at 10-15 seconds? It simply makes no sense at all. If this was all true, Calvery should either still be on the concrete island in Darnell, or between the island and the steps. I simply refuse to believe Calvery made it inside the building before Baker did.

Thomas, we may never know exactly what happened that day but, my God, man, don't you smell a rat here, and doesn't it seem like there is something wrong with everybody's story, including Calvery, Shelley, Lovelady, Baker and Truly?

Robert,

Unless, of course, in order to create an alibi for ... Gloria Calvery.

Yes, Robert, I smell a slimy, pink-tailed rodent or two. And something really stinky in Denmark, as well.

FWIW, I'm inclined to believe Baker more than the others, including the inconveniently-deceased (1978?) Gloria Jean Calvery.

At this point, I mistrust Shelley and Truly the most. But Gloria Jean is rapidly catching up with them in my book.

Regarding Shelley, I re-read his March 18, 1964, (unsigned; copy) statement to the FBI the other day, and something kinda jumped out at me:

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building..."

Accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards?

Really now, Bill (or Mr. Hoover or Mr. Shanklin). Don't you think that's just a bit ... over the top?

That's almost as incongruent as Billy Lovelady's WC testimony where he says, "... but I wouldn't swear to it that it was Vicki Adams," or words to that effect.

--Tommy

PS Regarding Lovelady, I frankly don't think he was intelligent enough to have been a bad guy. Nor Baker for that matter. Shelley and Truly, on the other hand...

Edited December 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

I finally found it. Here is "Shelley" and "Lovelady" on their way to the rail yard. If you look closely, Baker can be seen stepping off the curb of the concrete island and crossing the path they made five seconds or so before.

Here is the problem. If Baker was inside the TSBD front door within 15-22 seconds of the last shot, how much time do you think has elapsed, since the last shot, as he steps off the curb of the concrete island as seen here?

If Shelley and Lovelady had stopped at the concrete island to speak to Gloria Calvery, and are now seen out in the middle of the Elm St. extension, how long after the last shot were they speaking to her? Four seconds? Five seconds?

[Robert Prudhomme]

"FWIW, I'm inclined to believe Baker more than the others, including the inconveniently-deceased (1978?) Gloria Jean Calvery.

At this point, I mistrust Shelley and Truly the most. But Gloria Jean is rapidly catching up with them in my book."

I'm always impressed with researchers that go on their gut feelings, and trust some witnesses, and not others. We should call this the Selective Witness Program.

Really, Thomas, what logical reason do you have to trust Baker, and not trust Shelley, Truly and Calvery?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Here is a little gem for those who believe they are seeing Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension in Couch.

From the March 18, 1964 FBI statement of Bill Shelley:

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

The comical thing about this statement, and Shelley's WC testimony, is they contain elements that are obviously not true. And yet, without the FBI statement and WC testimony of Bill Shelley, would we even know Shelley and Lovelady had gone to the rail yard? Are you starting to get the suspicion we are the victims of a gigantic hoax, and Baker is one of the main players, and there are people still working very hard to perpetuate this hoax?

[Chris Davidson]

I finally found it. Here is "Shelley" and "Lovelady" on their way to the rail yard. If you look closely, Baker can be seen stepping off the curb of the concrete island and crossing the path they made five seconds or so before.

Here is the problem. If Baker was inside the TSBD front door within 15-22 seconds of the last shot, how much time do you think has elapsed, since the last shot, as he steps off the curb of the concrete island as seen here?

If Shelley and Lovelady had stopped at the concrete island to speak to Gloria Calvery, and are now seen out in the middle of the Elm St. extension, how long after the last shot were they speaking to her? Four seconds? Five seconds?

Robert,

Weigman's film, when synced with Bell,Couch and Darnell, doesn't allow Baker to enter the TSBD within 15-22 seconds of the extant 313 shot.

chris

[Tom Hume]

Robert P,

In the video clip you posted on #314, most everyone is both looking toward and/or heading toward the action. But there appears to me to be a dark haired woman moving quickly in the same direction as Baker. As she (?) passes Lovelady, she starts running (left to right}, and Lovelady starts running (right to left). It’s hard to tell, of course, but it looks like she possibly passed within inches of Lovelady. If she (?) knew Lovelady and Shelley, perhaps she blurted something to them as she hurried by.

This woman (?) disappears off the right side of the screen only a moment after Baker. Who do you think she is, Robert? If you’ve covered this before, I apologize.

Tom

[Thomas Graves]

Here is a little gem for those who believe they are seeing Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension in Couch.

From the March 18, 1964 FBI statement of Bill Shelley:

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

The comical thing about this statement, and Shelley's WC testimony, is they contain elements that are obviously not true. And yet, without the FBI statement and WC testimony of Bill Shelley, would we even know Shelley and Lovelady had gone to the rail yard? Are you starting to get the suspicion we are the victims of a gigantic hoax, and Baker is one of the main players, and there are people still working very hard to perpetuate this hoax?

Please don't get all paranoid again, Bob.

It's reasonable to assume that you're referring to certain members of this forum, yes?

If so, why do you feel the need to impugn the character of Forum members who disagree with you?

It's very divisive and tends to put a dampener on the free exchange of ideas and theories.

Is that your intention?

Do you feel like you're on some kind of Mission and that you have a "corner" on the Truth Market?

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited December 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

"FWIW, I'm inclined to believe Baker more than the others, including the inconveniently-deceased (1978?) Gloria Jean Calvery.

At this point, I mistrust Shelley and Truly the most. But Gloria Jean is rapidly catching up with them in my book."

I'm always impressed with researchers that go on their gut feelings, and trust some witnesses, and not others. We should call this the Selective Witness Program.

Really, Thomas, what logical reason do you have to trust Baker, and not trust Shelley, Truly and Calvery?

Really, Bobby. It's like I said. I think both Lovelady and Baker were too dull intellect-wise to be chosen to be bad guys.

Clever, devious Shelly probably told Lovelady to l-i-e to the Warren Commision about seeing Vicki Adams on the first floor, near the back of the building, when Shelley and Lovelady (supposedly) returned from the railway yard / parking lot and entered the TSBD through a rear or side door. I'm guessing that they really hadn't seen Vicki Adams there, and that they may not have even entered the TSBD that way and / or at that time. I'm guessing that dull Lovelady realized that he would be committing perjury if he l-i-e-d to the Warren Commission like that, but he kinda went through with it, anyway, and totally "spilled the beans" when he blurted out, "But I couldn't swear that it was Viki Adams," or words to that effect. See what I mean by "dull intellectually-speaking"?

Regarding Baker, I've read that some of his colleagues in the police department considered him to be one of the duller knives in the drawer. If he was rather dull intellectually-speaking, then I think it's unlikely that the ground-level Dallas "powers that be" (Truly and Shelley) would have chosen Baker to be one of their bad guys.

But maybe I'm all wrong, Bobby.

So what?

Live goes on, regardless.

I'm not "all hung up" on the idea that Baker was as pure as the driven snow.

By the way, are you ever going to ask anyone to please blow up and "enhance" the part of Darnell that you think shows Lovelady rising up from his sack lunch on the steps or perhaps climbing the steps backwards? Or was be bending over just before that and talking with somebody on the sidewalk, below?

I would do it myself, but I don't know how.

Have you done so already, or has someone already done it voluntarily? (I haven't looked at the other threads yet, today.)

--Tommy

Edited December 20, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Clive Largey]

Here is something to think about. How many times in a 50 year period does the following happen in the space of a minute?

1. The POTUS goes by the TSBD in a limo.

2. Three rifle shots are heard in Dealey Plaza.

3. A uniformed, white helmeted motorcycle cop roars up to the curb, hops off his motorcycle and goes tearing up the steps of the TSBD.

Kind of a semi-memorable moment in time, no?

Let's assume Pauline Sanders actually did see Baker go up the steps, as the FBI stated she did in their report of 24/11/63. As she seems to be the only witness on the steps who saw Baker, do you think she just calmly said to herself "Oh my, well, you certainly don't see that every day" and quietly went back to her desk? I hardly think so. If she was anything like the women I know, she would have shared this strange sighting with her neighbours on the steps (which included Molina and Frazier) and everyone on the steps would have been talking about the cop running into the building within 30 seconds; where he was going, why he ran into the building, was it connected to the shots they heard, etc.

When Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier were asked, at their appearance before the WC, if they had seen Baker enter the TSBD, don't you think it likely they might have at least offered "Well, I never actually saw the cop myself, but Pauline Sanders saw him, and everybody on the steps was talkin' about him within the next minute or so."

Well?

Robert, one alternative scenario which I actually do subscribe to.

Noises first perceived as firecrackers, not gunshots.

So no one we see on the steps at this time cares, they really have no idea and the films seem to support that notion.

Also Baker's story is partially made up. He did not speed up, at all. He carries on around the corner on his side of the street until he gets a look down Elm but he's not the dumb cop his superior made him out to be, he's actually above average. So he notices the trouble and he slows then stops, to observe, consider.

The limo takes off and there's cops nearby, he is not needed down there.

It then takes him ten to fifteen seconds to realise that those pops could have been shots and the building as good a place to check as any.

Every single person he runs past or toward has no clue what he is doing and he's just another head in a group that are all generally shifting around.

Those still looking must know something has happened because the motorcade has clearly stopped but people are only manoeuvring to see why and those we see on film have show no fear whatsoever.

So the memorable moment for, I would say, 99% of those we see in Couch and Darnell is the moment they learn those sounds were shots. That's yet to happen.

There's kids running in the street after they've all heard firecrackers and naturally, no one cares.

Crazy.

I think you've missed a couple of things here, Clive. I don't think the people on the steps and lined up on the curb were quite as unaware of something being wrong as you believe they are.

For example, Roy Lewis has quickly departed the steps, and is attempting to climb the traffic light pole, to get a better view of what is going on down below, by the time Baker makes it anywhere near the steps. And look at the people across the extension from the steps. They certainly know something is wrong.

Now, if Baker had casually strolled into the TSBD, I can see Pauline Sanders observing this and making no mention of it to the others who, miraculously, did not see a big ol' white helmeted cop stroll right in front of them. But, he did not stroll, he ran into the TSBD, according to Sanders.

You don't think between the shots, the crowd in front of them clearly being spooked and a white helmeted cop running past her would cause Pauline Sanders to ask her neighbours on the steps just what the h*ll was going on?

Robert, your original premise has the public immediately recognising the sounds as gunfire and then seeing a cop react to it just as quick but that's the legend, I think the films alone support an alternative.

Do you believe that both these cops who were within about thirty feet of one another at the time refer to the same one woman?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

Mr. BAKER - ...there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."

Do you think that if the above really happened and they both truly witnessed it, then it had to have occurred outside the TSBD between ten and fifteen seconds after the last shot? Wouldn't that event alone be motivation enough for anyone standing nearby to stop what they are doing and pay attention? Couldn't it account for Lewis' reaction and the two men following Smith toward the parking lot? Something is wrong but what?

The motorcade has stopped after some firecrackers were thrown and one terribly upset woman points a cop to the west.

This cannot be much more than five seconds after the woman told him what was up and someone here asked earlier, most now think this was Joe Smith

The gun is coming out, twenty seconds after the shots because he's only just received intelligence from a thoroughly believable source.

[Robert Prudhomme]

"FWIW, I'm inclined to believe Baker more than the others, including the inconveniently-deceased (1978?) Gloria Jean Calvery.

At this point, I mistrust Shelley and Truly the most. But Gloria Jean is rapidly catching up with them in my book."

I'm always impressed with researchers that go on their gut feelings, and trust some witnesses, and not others. We should call this the Selective Witness Program.

Really, Thomas, what logical reason do you have to trust Baker, and not trust Shelley, Truly and Calvery?

Really, Bobby. It's like I said. I think both Lovelady and Baker were too dull intellect-wise to be chosen to be bad guys.

Clever, devious Shelly probably told Lovelady to l-i-e to the Warren Commision about seeing Vicki Adams on the first floor, near the back of the building, when Shelley and Lovelady (supposedly) returned from the railway yard / parking lot and entered the TSBD through a rear or side door. I'm guessing that they really hadn't seen Vicki Adams there, and that they may not have even entered the TSBD that way and / or at that time. I'm guessing that dull Lovelady realized that he would be committing perjury if he l-i-e-d to the Warren Commission like that, but he kinda went through with it, anyway, and totally "spilled the beans" when he blurted out, "But I couldn't swear that it was Viki Adams," or words to that effect. See what I mean by "dull intellectually-speaking"?

Regarding Baker, I've read that some of his colleagues in the police department considered him to be one of the duller knives in the drawer. If he was rather dull intellectually-speaking, then I think it's unlikely that the ground-level Dallas "powers that be" (Truly and Shelley) would have chosen Baker to be one of their bad guys.

But maybe I'm all wrong, Bobby.

So what?

Live goes on, regardless.

I'm not "all hung up" on the idea that Baker was as pure as the driven snow.

By the way, are you ever going to ask anyone to please blow up and "enhance" the part of Darnell that you think shows Lovelady rising up from his sack lunch on the steps or perhaps climbing the steps backwards? Or was be bending over just before that and talking with somebody on the sidewalk, below?

I would do it myself, but I don't know how.

Have you done so already, or has someone already done it voluntarily? (I haven't looked at the other threads yet, today.)

--Tommy

Yup, I'm going to make you the head of the Selective Witness Program, Thomas. Using nothing more than gut instinct and some poorly grounded innuendo, you are able to sort out lying witnesses from truthful witnesses.

What amazes me most is it has taken you this long to solve the Crime of the Century.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

Here is a little gem for those who believe they are seeing Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension in Couch.

From the March 18, 1964 FBI statement of Bill Shelley:

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

The comical thing about this statement, and Shelley's WC testimony, is they contain elements that are obviously not true. And yet, without the FBI statement and WC testimony of Bill Shelley, would we even know Shelley and Lovelady had gone to the rail yard? Are you starting to get the suspicion we are the victims of a gigantic hoax, and Baker is one of the main players, and there are people still working very hard to perpetuate this hoax?

Please don't get all paranoid again, Bob.

It's reasonable to assume that you're referring to certain members of this forum, yes?

If so, why do you feel the need to impugn the character of Forum members who disagree with you?

It's very divisive and tends to put a dampener on the free exchange of ideas and theories.

Is that your intention?

Do you feel like you're on some kind of Mission and that you have a "corner" on the Truth Market?

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Why do you immediately assume I am referring to you?

[Thomas Graves]

Here is a little gem for those who believe they are seeing Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension in Couch.

From the March 18, 1964 FBI statement of Bill Shelley:

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

The comical thing about this statement, and Shelley's WC testimony, is they contain elements that are obviously not true. And yet, without the FBI statement and WC testimony of Bill Shelley, would we even know Shelley and Lovelady had gone to the rail yard? Are you starting to get the suspicion we are the victims of a gigantic hoax, and Baker is one of the main players, and there are people still working very hard to perpetuate this hoax?

Please don't get all paranoid again, Bob.

It's reasonable to assume that you're referring to certain members of this forum, yes?

If so, why do you feel the need to impugn the character of Forum members who disagree with you?

It's very divisive and tends to put a dampener on the free exchange of ideas and theories.

Is that your intention?

Do you feel like you're on some kind of Mission and that you have a "corner" on the Truth Market?

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Why do you immediately assume I am referring to you?

Well gosh, Bob,

I didn't say anything about myself, did I.

Regardless, kudos to you. At least this time you're not (more honestly and more directly) saying what you really want to say -- "If the shoe fits, wear it" -- like you did last time.

You're becoming more "sophisticated," but unfortunately you're still way to paranoiac, IMHO.

--Tommy

Edited December 20, 2015 by Thomas Graves