One Last Thing Before Xmas Eve: 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks Tommy, but before we rewrite the TSBD architecture to include a feature never before called a vestibule, two facts:

Hallways, corridors and Passages come in all lengths, curves, angles and number of doors.

Some even have doors separating the hallway or passage into sections.

Vestibules connect to the exterior of buildings.

You have a date set for the vestibular nuptials yet? Where will the reception be, a small 'room' with three doors?

I guess that makes the storage room behind the lunch room also a vestibule! You can hold it there.

When Oswald used the term correctly it places himself in a very specific area. First floor, entrance. (see #171)

Mazel tov,

Ed

Fast Eddie,

That thing on the second floor is the funniest-looking enclosed, compact, five-sided, three-doored "hallway" I've ever seen.

OK, if not "vestibule," should we call it a "closet," instead? Or a "cloak room?"

Hey! I got it! How about "a compact, five-sided, three-doored, passageway nexus" !

Anything but "hallway," Fast Eddie.

Mahalo,

--Tommy

PS An overheard (by the NSA) hush-hush conversation between two gun-and-drug-dealing TSBD employees: "Let's meet at 4:30 in the Second Floor Nexus. You know, that strangely-shaped little hallway by the lunch room, the one that has three doors and kinda connects everything?"

Edited January 31, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Cross]

Semantics. Not sure the argument caries weight either way.

But, another word would be foyer.

[Thomas Graves]

Semantics. Not sure the argument caries weight either way.

But, another word would be foyer.

Michael,

Thanks for that.

We actually agree on something for a change.

It's from the French and is pronounced foy-YAY, correct?

I wonder if that word was in Oswald's vocabulary, or in the vocabularies of any of those high-cultured TSBD employees.

I know the word, very rarely use it, and didn't even think of it in the context of the "lunch room encounter." But, upon reflection, it is perfect.

For what it's worth, only 2% of the other students who took the same College Board exam I took in 1966 (or was it 1965?) did better than I did on the "verbal intelligence" part, so I'm thinking now -- if I didn't remember that word earlier in this post, what are the chances Oswald would have used it?

Come to think of it, Oswald did pretty dang good to use the intellectual-soundin' word "vestibule" to describe that thingy on the second floor, didn't he? It is, after all, much more descriptive and accurate (among fellow Texans, anyhoo) than "hallway" or "passageway."

Just sayin'

--Tommy

Edited February 2, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Richard Gilbride]

Part 1 of 2

Robert Prudhomme's post #136 contends that my position, that the lunchroom incident occurred, depends on 4 points about Adams & Styles passing Truly & Baker while they were in the lunchroom/vestibule area. Before addressing these 4 points, I want to emphasize that it would be more accurate to state that- as explained in post #41 of Great New Movie Spells Out the Case for Oswald as PrayerMan- A & S passing T & B is one of the 4 results that materialize when the incident's reality is accepted.

There are 6 points, which I reiterated in post #131 of this thread, which oblige us to dismiss completely any notion that the lunchroom incident was hoaxed. These 6 points oblige us to consider every item of evidence through the lens of the incident's reality.

But I have extraordinary confidence that A & S passed T & B, and can counter Robert's objections- in his hometown arena, as it were.

1) That Roy Truly actually went through the vestibule door and allowed it to close behind him.

...According to Truly, he "opened the door back and leaned in this way." From this, the brilliant sleuth Gilbride has deduced that Truly went through the door and allowed it to close behind him.

The brilliant sleuth Gilbride has far more clever methods with which to form his deductions. 4 replies later, Truly recounts that "When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald." Goodness, did Truly actually mean to say, "When I reached Nirvana, leaning in as I was in the vestibule doorway..."?

The lunchroom doorframe was 7-8 feet from the vestibule doorframe. Truly described Baker as almost directly in the lunchroom doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. He could see that Baker had his gun in Oswald's gut and he could see Oswald's facial expression. The point-of-view which enabled these details to be gleaned came about because he had moseyed up beside Baker, i.e. "When I reached there..."

And so the vestibule door, 6-7-8 feet behind him, closed automatically. The focus of this portion of the testimony was about Baker confronting Oswald, and the vestibule door's closing mattered little or nothing in that regard. And Belin simply skipped that irrelevant detail.

Robert, your critique here is like you telling me you got in your truck and went to the store. So, am I to conclude that you drove with your door open, since you didn't mention closing it?

2) That the automatic closer on the vestibule door was a very fast closer.

...Not only was Truly's time in the vestibule brief (5-6 seconds tops), was the vestibule door closed for all that time? I doubt it, unless the automatic closer on the vestibule door was an EXTREMELY fast closer.

In other words, while Baker was asking Truly if Oswald worked there, the vestibule door would likely still be closing. This would make the door still open, and if Adams and Styles were passing through the landing, they would have no trouble hearing Truly and Baker, and Truly and Baker would have no trouble hearing them.

The automatic closer on the vestibule door is seen in the Secret Service re-enactment film. It was a standard, commercial-grade, rudimentary pneumatic device. How fast the door closed, of course, depended upon how far it had been opened.

Gauging from Truly's testimony- that he had leaned in- it probably got opened in the neighborhood of 30-35 degrees. I'd estimate its required closing time from that position as between 3-4 seconds.

Baker also corroborated Truly in that he left "immediately" after hearing Truly's "yes", but he also estimated the elapsed time (between first sighting Oswald and then heading for upstairs) as 30 seconds (III p. 258).

Robert, you are making a mistake here of cherry-picking an item of testimony and, through your pre-judgment, concluding that it supports a hoax and only a hoax. But we have to remember that there are 6 conditions (post #131) the hoax hypothesis fails to properly account for. It does not survive the crucible of fire. Although your cherry-picked item, at first blush, seems disposed toward a hoax interpretation, it must be viewed through the lens of the incident's reality.

[Thomas Graves]

Part 1 of 2

Robert Prudhomme's post #136 contends that my position, that the lunchroom incident occurred, depends on 4 points about Adams & Styles passing Truly & Baker while they were in the lunchroom/vestibule area. Before addressing these 4 points, I want to emphasize that it would be more accurate to state that- as explained in post #41 of Great New Movie Spells Out the Case for Oswald as PrayerMan- A & S passing T & B is one of the 4 results that materialize when the incident's reality is accepted.

There are 6 points, which I reiterated in post #131 of this thread, which oblige us to dismiss completely any notion that the lunchroom incident was hoaxed. These 6 points oblige us to consider every item of evidence through the lens of the incident's reality.

But I have extraordinary confidence that A & S passed T & B, and can counter Robert's objections- in his hometown arena, as it were.

1) That Roy Truly actually went through the vestibule door and allowed it to close behind him.

...According to Truly, he "opened the door back and leaned in this way." From this, the brilliant sleuth Gilbride has deduced that Truly went through the door and allowed it to close behind him.

The brilliant sleuth Gilbride has far more clever methods with which to form his deductions. 4 replies later, Truly recounts that "When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald." Goodness, did Truly actually mean to say, "When I reached Nirvana, leaning in as I was in the vestibule doorway..."?

The lunchroom doorframe was 7-8 feet from the vestibule doorframe. Truly described Baker as almost directly in the lunchroom doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. He could see that Baker had his gun in Oswald's gut and he could see Oswald's facial expression. The point-of-view which enabled these details to be gleaned came about because he had moseyed up beside Baker, i.e. "When I reached there..."

And so the vestibule door, 6-7-8 feet behind him, closed automatically. The focus of this portion of the testimony was about Baker confronting Oswald, and the vestibule door's closing mattered little or nothing in that regard. And Belin simply skipped that irrelevant detail.

Robert, your critique here is like you telling me you got in your truck and went to the store. So, am I to conclude that you drove with your door open, since you didn't mention closing it?

2) That the automatic closer on the vestibule door was a very fast closer.

...Not only was Truly's time in the vestibule brief (5-6 seconds tops), was the vestibule door closed for all that time? I doubt it, unless the automatic closer on the vestibule door was an EXTREMELY fast closer.

In other words, while Baker was asking Truly if Oswald worked there, the vestibule door would likely still be closing. This would make the door still open, and if Adams and Styles were passing through the landing, they would have no trouble hearing Truly and Baker, and Truly and Baker would have no trouble hearing them.

The automatic closer on the vestibule door is seen in the Secret Service re-enactment film. It was a standard, commercial-grade, rudimentary pneumatic device. How fast the door closed, of course, depended upon how far it had been opened.

Gauging from Truly's testimony- that he had leaned in- it probably got opened in the neighborhood of 30-35 degrees. I'd estimate its required closing time from that position as between 3-4 seconds.

Baker also corroborated Truly in that he left "immediately" after hearing Truly's "yes", but he also estimated the elapsed time (between first sighting Oswald and then heading for upstairs) as 30 seconds (III p. 258).

Robert, you are making a mistake here of cherry-picking an item of testimony and, through your pre-judgment, concluding that it supports a hoax and only a hoax. But we have to remember that there are 6 conditions (post #131) the hoax hypothesis fails to properly account for. It does not survive the crucible of fire. Although your cherry-picked item, at first blush, seems disposed toward a hoax interpretation, it must be viewed through the lens of the incident's reality.

Richard,

What makes you think Cowboy Bob's truck even has a door?

Sorry.

I couldn't resist.

--Tommy

Edited January 31, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Richard Gilbride]

Consider-

When Truly, 2-3 steps up toward the 3rd floor, realizes that Baker is not following him and heads for the vestibule door-

Adams & Styles are already beginning their descent down the stairs from the 3rd floor.

Truly, even if he heard their high heels resonating from the stairwell behind him, would be more concerned with determining what Baker was doing.

And the vestibule door remained closed for 8-10-12 or more seconds out of Baker's estimated 30 seconds. And the time period that Truly was inside the vestibule was the time period that Adams & Styles passed by on the landing.

And even if Truly had heard their muffled high heels, he had no cause to mention that- in fact, he had cause not to mention that. And even if Baker had heard their muffled high heels, his focus was on the suspect in front of him.

Adams' focus was on getting downstairs and outside and with the vestibule door closed she had no reason to think that anyone was inside there, i.e. no reason to attune her ears to a muffled conversation going on inside. Besides, she apparently heard the elevator cables moving while on the 2nd-floor landing and her attention was drawn to that.

3) The vestibule door was completely soundproof.

From the beginning I have maintained that this newly-installed, heavy-duty door was put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet.

4) That Truly and Baker were on the other side of the vestibule door long enough to allow Adams and Styles to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected.

Correct, except for the last word. Substitute unmentioned, or forgotten-about. My 1st lunchroom essay used the phrase "irrelevant to the gestalt".

As if all of this is not bad enough, how did Baker actually see Oswald through the small pane of glass in the vestibule door?

And then, Robert, you present a scenario where Baker has to make a "wide sweep" of the 2nd-floor landing in order to catch a glimpse of Oswald in the plate-glass window- as if he were a horse with blinders following Truly, and could never turn his head to look to the right.

BAKER: As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I came out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this- I happened to see him through this window in this door. (III p. 250)

**********************************

Robert, my opinion is that you need to remove your hoax sunglasses in order to be able to see this aspect of the case clearly again. The longer you wear them, the deeper the collective dementia penetrates your psyche.

It was a hypothesis never formalized in a position paper, that only perfunctorily addressed its critics' objections. It is a demonstrable falsehood, and will suffer the same fate as "The driver shot JFK".

[Thomas Graves]

Consider-

When Truly, 2-3 steps up toward the 3rd floor, realizes that Baker is not following him and heads for the vestibule door-

Adams & Styles are already beginning their descent down the stairs from the 3rd floor.

Truly, even if he heard their high heels resonating from the stairwell behind him, would be more concerned with determining what Baker was doing.

And the vestibule door remained closed for 8-10-12 or more seconds out of Baker's estimated 30 seconds. And the time period that Truly was inside the vestibule was the time period that Adams & Styles passed by on the landing.

And even if Truly had heard their muffled high heels, he had no cause to mention that- in fact, he had cause not to mention that. And even if Baker had heard their muffled high heels, his focus was on the suspect in front of him.

Adams' focus was on getting downstairs and outside and with the vestibule door closed she had no reason to think that anyone was inside there, i.e. no reason to attune her ears to a muffled conversation going on inside. Besides, she apparently heard the elevator cables moving while on the 2nd-floor landing and her attention was drawn to that.

3) The vestibule door was completely soundproof.

From the beginning I have maintained that this newly-installed, heavy-duty door was put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet.

4) That Truly and Baker were on the other side of the vestibule door long enough to allow Adams and Styles to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected.

Correct, except for the last word. Substitute unmentioned, or forgotten-about. My 1st lunchroom essay used the phrase "irrelevant to the gestalt".

As if all of this is not bad enough, how did Baker actually see Oswald through the small pane of glass in the vestibule door?

And then, Robert, you present a scenario where Baker has to make a "wide sweep" of the 2nd-floor landing in order to catch a glimpse of Oswald in the plate-glass window- as if he were a horse with blinders following Truly, and could never turn his head to look to the right.

BAKER: As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I came out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this- I happened to see him through this window in this door. (III p. 250)

**********************************

Robert, my opinion is that you need to remove your hoax sunglasses in order to be able to see this aspect of the case clearly again. The longer you wear them, the deeper the collective dementia penetrates your psyche.

It was a hypothesis never formalized in a position paper, that only perfunctorily addressed its critics' objections. It is a demonstrable falsehood, and will suffer the same fate as "The driver shot JFK".

Dear Forum Members,

Robert Prudhomme is wrong (or worse) when he says it was a small pane of glass.

Note the foyer / vestibule outer door in the photo, below.

--Tommy

Edited January 31, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Could someone explain to me how to go about putting a member on "Ignore"?

[Robert Prudhomme]

From Richard Gilbride:

"The lunchroom doorframe was 7-8 feet from the vestibule doorframe. Truly described Baker as almost directly in the lunchroom doorframe, facingOswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. He could see that Baker had his gun in Oswald's gut and he could see Oswald's facial expression. The point-of-view which enabled these details to be gleaned came about because he had moseyed up beside Baker, i.e. "When I reached there..."

Truly was afforded this view of Oswald when Baker turned back to ask Truly if he knew Oswald. It may have been 7 feet, at most, from vestibule door to lunchroom door but, when Truly leaned in through the doorway, with the door open, he would have reduced that to 4-5 feet; plenty close enough to see what was going on when Baker turned to speak to him.

"Baker also corroborated Truly in that he left "immediately" after hearing Truly's "yes", but he also estimated the elapsed time (between first sighting Oswald and then heading for upstairs) as 30 seconds (III p. 258)."

The majority of that 30 seconds was taken up by Baker confronting Oswald, Truly realizing he wasn't being followed up the stairs and Truly returning to the vestibule door. I still maintain Truly was in the vestibule no longer than 4-5 seconds, requiring the automatic closer to be VERY fast, as Adams and Styles would require time to cross the 2nd floor landing.

"When Truly, 2-3 steps up toward the 3rd floor, realizes that Baker is not following him and heads for the vestibule door-

Adams & Styles are already beginning their descent down the stairs from the 3rd floor.

Truly, even if he heard their high heels resonating from the stairwell behind him, would be more concerned with determining what Baker was doing."

Truly would have heard Adams and Styles coming down the stairs but was more concerned about Baker and, therefore, this would not register in his brain?? Seriously, Richard? This is a joke, right?

"And the vestibule door remained closed for 8-10-12 or more seconds out of Baker's estimated 30 seconds. And the time period that Truly was inside the vestibule was the time period that Adams & Styles passed by on the landing."

It may have remained closed for this period of time but, that would have been before Truly entered the foyer. Truly himself was in and out of there so quickly, the door was probably still closing when they headed up the stairs again.

"And even if Truly had heard their muffled high heels, he had no cause to mention that- in fact, he had cause not to mention that. And even if Baker had heard their muffled high heels, his focus was on the suspect in front of him."

You are allowing your unjustified bias against Roy Truly to cloud your perspective of reality.

"Adams' focus was on getting downstairs and outside and with the vestibule door closed she had no reason to think that anyone was inside there, i.e. no reason to attune her ears to a muffled conversation going on inside. Besides, she apparently heard the elevator cables moving while on the 2nd-floor landing and her attention was drawn to that."

Your opinion again, and totally unsupported, as Adams herself admitted to having a great curiosity. And what a coincidence, that the elevator should begin moving just after Truly heard voices in the vestibule. If the elevator had started up earlier, he might never have found Baker.

"From the beginning I have maintained that this newly-installed, heavy-duty door was put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet."

And yet, Truly had no trouble hearing Baker and Oswald through this door. Perhaps it was still closing when Truly returned to the landing, making it a slow closing automatic door closer. Of course, that would have made the door still open when Adams and Styles came through. Which do you prefer?

"And then, Robert, you present a scenario where Baker has to make a "wide sweep" of the 2nd-floor landing in order to catch a glimpse of Oswald in the plate-glass window- as if he were a horse with blinders following Truly, and could never turn his head to look to the right."

Wrong again, Richard, and I believe you know better, but are just pretending you don't. Baker would be making a hard left turn, at the top of the stairs, in order to follow Truly to the 3rd floor stairs. From the vantage point of the top of the stairs, the window in the vestibule door does not line up with the lunch room door, and he would not be able to see into the lunch room. If he tried to make a big sweep to the right, in order to inspect the room, he would have run into the boxes seen in this photo:

I imagine the pile of boxes kept going to the right of this photo, limiting Baker's "sweep" to the narrow lane seen above.

As I expected, you have left out one of the key points of Truly's testimony; that Roy Truly returned onto the 2nd floor landing and was able to hear the voices of Oswald and Baker; supposedly through a closed vestibule door that was, according to you, "...put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell...". I guess it must have still been closing when Truly returned to the landing.

[Thomas Graves]

From Richard Gilbride:

"The lunchroom doorframe was 7-8 feet from the vestibule doorframe. Truly described Baker as almost directly in the lunchroom doorframe, facingOswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. He could see that Baker had his gun in Oswald's gut and he could see Oswald's facial expression. The point-of-view which enabled these details to be gleaned came about because he had moseyed up beside Baker, i.e. "When I reached there..."

Truly was afforded this view of Oswald when Baker turned back to ask Truly if he knew Oswald. It may have been 7 feet, at most, from vestibule door to lunchroom door but, when Truly leaned in through the doorway, with the door open, he would have reduced that to 4-5 feet; plenty close enough to see what was going on when Baker turned to speak to him.

"Baker also corroborated Truly in that he left "immediately" after hearing Truly's "yes", but he also estimated the elapsed time (between first sighting Oswald and then heading for upstairs) as 30 seconds (III p. 258)."

The majority of that 30 seconds was taken up by Baker confronting Oswald, Truly realizing he wasn't being followed up the stairs and Truly returning to the vestibule door. I still maintain Truly was in the vestibule no longer than 4-5 seconds, requiring the automatic closer to be VERY fast, as Adams and Styles would require time to cross the 2nd floor landing.

"When Truly, 2-3 steps up toward the 3rd floor, realizes that Baker is not following him and heads for the vestibule door-

Adams & Styles are already beginning their descent down the stairs from the 3rd floor.

Truly, even if he heard their high heels resonating from the stairwell behind him, would be more concerned with determining what Baker was doing."

Truly would have heard Adams and Styles coming down the stairs but was more concerned about Baker and, therefore, this would not register in his brain?? Seriously, Richard? This is a joke, right?

"And the vestibule door remained closed for 8-10-12 or more seconds out of Baker's estimated 30 seconds. And the time period that Truly was inside the vestibule was the time period that Adams & Styles passed by on the landing."

It may have remained closed for this period of time but, that would have been before Truly entered the foyer. Truly himself was in and out of there so quickly, the door was probably still closing when they headed up the stairs again.

"And even if Truly had heard their muffled high heels, he had no cause to mention that- in fact, he had cause not to mention that. And even if Baker had heard their muffled high heels, his focus was on the suspect in front of him."

You are allowing your unjustified bias against Roy Truly to cloud your perspective of reality.

"Adams' focus was on getting downstairs and outside and with the vestibule door closed she had no reason to think that anyone was inside there, i.e. no reason to attune her ears to a muffled conversation going on inside. Besides, she apparently heard the elevator cables moving while on the 2nd-floor landing and her attention was drawn to that."

Your opinion again, and totally unsupported, as Adams herself admitted to having a great curiosity. And what a coincidence, that the elevator should begin moving just after Truly heard voices in the vestibule. If the elevator had started up earlier, he might never have found Baker.

"From the beginning I have maintained that this newly-installed, heavy-duty door was put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet."

And yet, Truly had no trouble hearing Baker and Oswald through this door. Perhaps it was still closing when Truly returned to the landing, making it a slow closing automatic door closer. Of course, that would have made the door still open when Adams and Styles came through. Which do you prefer?

"And then, Robert, you present a scenario where Baker has to make a "wide sweep" of the 2nd-floor landing in order to catch a glimpse of Oswald in the plate-glass window- as if he were a horse with blinders following Truly, and could never turn his head to look to the right."

Wrong again, Richard, and I believe you know better, but are just pretending you don't. Baker would be making a hard left turn, at the top of the stairs, in order to follow Truly to the 3rd floor stairs. From the vantage point of the top of the stairs, the window in the vestibule door does not line up with the lunch room door, and he would not be able to see into the lunch room. If he tried to make a big sweep to the right, in order to inspect the room, he would have run into the boxes seen in this photo:

Hi, Bob!

And what if Oswald was standing real close to that large window, looking through it to see who was loudly coming up the stairs in motorcycle boots (or in "heels" coming down)? Do you think Baker could have seen Oswald as he turned away from the window and started walking back into the lunch room?

Hmmm?

--Tommy

Edited February 1, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

From Richard Gilbride:

"The lunchroom doorframe was 7-8 feet from the vestibule doorframe. Truly described Baker as almost directly in the lunchroom doorframe, facingOswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. He could see that Baker had his gun in Oswald's gut and he could see Oswald's facial expression. The point-of-view which enabled these details to be gleaned came about because he had moseyed up beside Baker, i.e. "When I reached there..."

Truly was afforded this view of Oswald when Baker turned back to ask Truly if he knew Oswald. It may have been 7 feet, at most, from vestibule door to lunchroom door but, when Truly leaned in through the doorway, with the door open, he would have reduced that to 4-5 feet; plenty close enough to see what was going on when Baker turned to speak to him.

"Baker also corroborated Truly in that he left "immediately" after hearing Truly's "yes", but he also estimated the elapsed time (between first sighting Oswald and then heading for upstairs) as 30 seconds (III p. 258)."

The majority of that 30 seconds was taken up by Baker confronting Oswald, Truly realizing he wasn't being followed up the stairs and Truly returning to the vestibule door. I still maintain Truly was in the vestibule no longer than 4-5 seconds, requiring the automatic closer to be VERY fast, as Adams and Styles would require time to cross the 2nd floor landing.

"When Truly, 2-3 steps up toward the 3rd floor, realizes that Baker is not following him and heads for the vestibule door-

Adams & Styles are already beginning their descent down the stairs from the 3rd floor.

Truly, even if he heard their high heels resonating from the stairwell behind him, would be more concerned with determining what Baker was doing."

Truly would have heard Adams and Styles coming down the stairs but was more concerned about Baker and, therefore, this would not register in his brain?? Seriously, Richard? This is a joke, right?

"And the vestibule door remained closed for 8-10-12 or more seconds out of Baker's estimated 30 seconds. And the time period that Truly was inside the vestibule was the time period that Adams & Styles passed by on the landing."

It may have remained closed for this period of time but, that would have been before Truly entered the foyer. Truly himself was in and out of there so quickly, the door was probably still closing when they headed up the stairs again.

"And even if Truly had heard their muffled high heels, he had no cause to mention that- in fact, he had cause not to mention that. And even if Baker had heard their muffled high heels, his focus was on the suspect in front of him."

You are allowing your unjustified bias against Roy Truly to cloud your perspective of reality.

"Adams' focus was on getting downstairs and outside and with the vestibule door closed she had no reason to think that anyone was inside there, i.e. no reason to attune her ears to a muffled conversation going on inside. Besides, she apparently heard the elevator cables moving while on the 2nd-floor landing and her attention was drawn to that."

Your opinion again, and totally unsupported, as Adams herself admitted to having a great curiosity. And what a coincidence, that the elevator should begin moving just after Truly heard voices in the vestibule. If the elevator had started up earlier, he might never have found Baker.

"From the beginning I have maintained that this newly-installed, heavy-duty door was put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet."

And yet, Truly had no trouble hearing Baker and Oswald through this door. Perhaps it was still closing when Truly returned to the landing, making it a slow closing automatic door closer. Of course, that would have made the door still open when Adams and Styles came through. Which do you prefer?

"And then, Robert, you present a scenario where Baker has to make a "wide sweep" of the 2nd-floor landing in order to catch a glimpse of Oswald in the plate-glass window- as if he were a horse with blinders following Truly, and could never turn his head to look to the right."

Wrong again, Richard, and I believe you know better, but are just pretending you don't. Baker would be making a hard left turn, at the top of the stairs, in order to follow Truly to the 3rd floor stairs. From the vantage point of the top of the stairs, the window in the vestibule door does not line up with the lunch room door, and he would not be able to see into the lunch room. If he tried to make a big sweep to the right, in order to inspect the room, he would have run into the boxes seen in this photo:

Hi, Bob!

And what if Oswald was standing real close to that large window, looking through it to see who was loudly coming up the stairs in motorcycle boots (or in "heels" coming down)? Do you think Baker could have seen Oswald as he turned away from the window and started walking back into the lunch room?

Hmmm?

--Tommy

I thought no one could hear people on the stairs through that door.

[Thomas Graves]

From Richard Gilbride:

"The lunchroom doorframe was 7-8 feet from the vestibule doorframe. Truly described Baker as almost directly in the lunchroom doorframe, facingOswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. He could see that Baker had his gun in Oswald's gut and he could see Oswald's facial expression. The point-of-view which enabled these details to be gleaned came about because he had moseyed up beside Baker, i.e. "When I reached there..."

Truly was afforded this view of Oswald when Baker turned back to ask Truly if he knew Oswald. It may have been 7 feet, at most, from vestibule door to lunchroom door but, when Truly leaned in through the doorway, with the door open, he would have reduced that to 4-5 feet; plenty close enough to see what was going on when Baker turned to speak to him.

"Baker also corroborated Truly in that he left "immediately" after hearing Truly's "yes", but he also estimated the elapsed time (between first sighting Oswald and then heading for upstairs) as 30 seconds (III p. 258)."

The majority of that 30 seconds was taken up by Baker confronting Oswald, Truly realizing he wasn't being followed up the stairs and Truly returning to the vestibule door. I still maintain Truly was in the vestibule no longer than 4-5 seconds, requiring the automatic closer to be VERY fast, as Adams and Styles would require time to cross the 2nd floor landing.

"When Truly, 2-3 steps up toward the 3rd floor, realizes that Baker is not following him and heads for the vestibule door-

Adams & Styles are already beginning their descent down the stairs from the 3rd floor.

Truly, even if he heard their high heels resonating from the stairwell behind him, would be more concerned with determining what Baker was doing."

Truly would have heard Adams and Styles coming down the stairs but was more concerned about Baker and, therefore, this would not register in his brain?? Seriously, Richard? This is a joke, right?

"And the vestibule door remained closed for 8-10-12 or more seconds out of Baker's estimated 30 seconds. And the time period that Truly was inside the vestibule was the time period that Adams & Styles passed by on the landing."

It may have remained closed for this period of time but, that would have been before Truly entered the foyer. Truly himself was in and out of there so quickly, the door was probably still closing when they headed up the stairs again.

"And even if Truly had heard their muffled high heels, he had no cause to mention that- in fact, he had cause not to mention that. And even if Baker had heard their muffled high heels, his focus was on the suspect in front of him."

You are allowing your unjustified bias against Roy Truly to cloud your perspective of reality.

"Adams' focus was on getting downstairs and outside and with the vestibule door closed she had no reason to think that anyone was inside there, i.e. no reason to attune her ears to a muffled conversation going on inside. Besides, she apparently heard the elevator cables moving while on the 2nd-floor landing and her attention was drawn to that."

Your opinion again, and totally unsupported, as Adams herself admitted to having a great curiosity. And what a coincidence, that the elevator should begin moving just after Truly heard voices in the vestibule. If the elevator had started up earlier, he might never have found Baker.

"From the beginning I have maintained that this newly-installed, heavy-duty door was put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet."

And yet, Truly had no trouble hearing Baker and Oswald through this door. Perhaps it was still closing when Truly returned to the landing, making it a slow closing automatic door closer. Of course, that would have made the door still open when Adams and Styles came through. Which do you prefer?

"And then, Robert, you present a scenario where Baker has to make a "wide sweep" of the 2nd-floor landing in order to catch a glimpse of Oswald in the plate-glass window- as if he were a horse with blinders following Truly, and could never turn his head to look to the right."

Wrong again, Richard, and I believe you know better, but are just pretending you don't. Baker would be making a hard left turn, at the top of the stairs, in order to follow Truly to the 3rd floor stairs. From the vantage point of the top of the stairs, the window in the vestibule door does not line up with the lunch room door, and he would not be able to see into the lunch room. If he tried to make a big sweep to the right, in order to inspect the room, he would have run into the boxes seen in this photo:

Hi, Bob!

And what if Oswald was standing real close to that large window, looking through it to see who was loudly coming up the stairs in motorcycle boots (or in "heels" coming down)? Do you think Baker could have seen Oswald as he turned away from the window and started walking back into the lunch room?

Hmmm?

--Tommy

I thought no one could hear people on the stairs through that door.

Hi Bob!

Just because Richard says it was a 100% soundproof door doesn't mean that it actually was.

Regardless, how about the sounds of four "heels" (belonging to Adams and Styles) scurrying down the stairs above, coming through the walls and ceiling of the lunchroom?

Hmmm?

--Tommy

Edited February 1, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

And Oswald would care about someone coming up the stairs because........

He worked in a large building with many other people. Do you think he peed his pants every time he heard someone coming up the stairs??

[Thomas Graves]

And Oswald would care about someone coming up the stairs because........

He worked in a large building with many other people. Do you think he peed his pants every time he heard someone coming up the stairs??

Hi Bob!

There weren't many people inside the building because most of them were outside, watching the motorcade

Oswald had probably just come to the lunch room from his position on the front steps as Prayer Man (where he might have been monitoring Joe Molina during the motorcade), and had seen the President get shot, or could surmise that he had been shot.

He may have thought he was alone or nearly alone, in the TSBD from the second floor up, and may have been surprised to hear any footsteps from where he was in the lunchroom

You figure it out.

It's interesting that you didn't address the other half of what I said. You know, the bit about the sounds of the four "heels" scurrying down the stairs from above him?

Typical Cowboy Bob. He only get half of the story.

--Tommy

Edited February 1, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Yup. Totally surprised to hear anyone coming back into the TSBD. And, of course, he would have known ALL about the assassination. Maybe by osmosis?

Now, how is it Oswald is the only person who can hear anything through the vestibule door?