One Last Thing Before Xmas Eve: 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Ian Lloyd]

From post #92 by T. Graves:

I hope I'm not sounding too cynical, but I hope that it's okay to speculate about all of this.

Ian,

Care to speculate where Baker ran to, if not up the TSBD front steps, about 30 seconds after the assassination? Care to speculate as to why there were no witnesses who said anything about where Baker sprinted to (other than "in front of the TSBD" for a few seconds), and what he did once he got there?

Cowboy Bob needs all the help he can get with these little details.

--Tommy

Tommy,

You know that my reply was in response to your post that you subsequently deleted and replaced with a new post as I was responding to your initial post...(if you can follow that!!)...

[Thomas Graves]

From post #92 by T. Graves:

I hope I'm not sounding too cynical, but I hope that it's okay to speculate about all of this.

Ian,

Care to speculate where Baker ran to, if not up the TSBD front steps, about 30 seconds after the assassination? Care to speculate as to why there were no witnesses who said anything about where Baker sprinted to (other than "in front of the TSBD" for a few seconds), and what he did once he got there?

Cowboy Bob needs all the help he can get with these little details.

--Tommy

Tommy,

You know that my reply was in response to your post that you subsequently deleted and replaced with a new post as I was responding to your initial post...(if you can follow that!!)...

Yes, Ian I was hoping you wouldn't notice that.

The Bad Guys pay me a lot of money to do that sort of thing here from time to time.

Nice catch, Old Boy.

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

Nothing like watching an LN so hard at work so late into the night.

So, are you saying that I'm a Lone Nutter, Cowboy Bob?

I'm not, but you can call me that if you want to. It has a much nicer "ring" to it that what you used to call me -- "Disinfo Agent." Remember, Bobby? (I've saved the PM you sent me at 6:55 am one morning.)

Do you think that Oswald must have been guilty if Baker and Truly really did encounter him in the vestibule / 2nd floor lunch room when they said they did? If so, I'm sorry you feel that way, Bobby. You really do need to think "outside of the box" a little more often, Cowboy.

By the way, you never did thank me for finding Peggy Joyce Hawkins (ne Bibler) and little Johnny for you. And so close to Baker's radio and the TSBD, too! And come to think of it, I showed you where Roy Truly was during the motorcade a couple of months ago, too! (Not far from Jeraldean Reid!) You had asked the question "Where Was Roy Truly Right After The Last Shot Was Fired?," and I showed you, didn't I Bob? And you never thanked me, did you, Cowboy Bob. Probably because what I showed you didn't fit in with your theory-in-progress, huh, Bobby? Oh well, at least you stopped asking the question, so you must have accepted my answer as fact. But it sure would have been nice if you'd said "thanks," or "good job, Thomas," or something, seein' as how you were the one who asked the question in the first place.

What are you, some kind of ingrate, Cowboy Bob?

Or just a rude, slightly paranoiac... insomniac?

--Tommy

Bumped for Cowboy Bob

Edited February 1, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Ian Lloyd]

From post #92 by T. Graves:

I hope I'm not sounding too cynical, but I hope that it's okay to speculate about all of this.

Ian,

Care to speculate where Baker ran to, if not up the TSBD front steps, about 30 seconds after the assassination? Care to speculate as to why there were no witnesses who said anything about where Baker sprinted to (other than "in front of the TSBD" for a few seconds), and what he did once he got there?

Cowboy Bob needs all the help he can get with these little details.

--Tommy

Tommy,

You know that my reply was in response to your post that you subsequently deleted and replaced with a new post as I was responding to your initial post...(if you can follow that!!)...

Yes, Ian I was hoping you wouldn't notice that.

The Bad Guys pay me a lot of money to do that sort of thing here from time to time.

Nice catch, Old Boy.

--Tommy

Ha!!

I was just having a bit of fun anyway...

[Thomas Graves]

Oh, but I forgot, none of them [baker, Truly, and Oswald] were listening.

Hi, Bob!

"By George, I think you've got it!"

Not for high heels and chattering women, anyway.

There's hope for you yet, Cowboy Bob.

And if Adams and Styles were chatting (or even if they weren't) the few seconds they were on the second floor in their noisy high heeled shoes, and if Baker and Truly were partially hidden behind the partially-open "sound proof" vestibule door, then, by golly, they (Adams and Styles) could very well have not noticed them (Baker, Truly, and Oswald) over there in the vestibule, couldn't they?

--Tommy

Edited February 1, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Ian Lloyd]

Not that it's really on topic, but what's been bugging me about this is what that foyer/vestibule between the stairway landing and the 2nd floor lunchroom is actually there for...Fire? Noise? I don't really think either of these...looking closely at the photos, there is what appears to be a sprinkler pipe passing through the wall but the hole looks like it's cut quite 'loosely' and not sealed which makes me think the foyer/vestibule is a later addition...

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ian Lloyd

[Thomas Graves]

Not that it's really on topic, but what's been bugging me about this is what that foyer/vestibule between the stairway landing and the 2nd floor lunchroom is actually there for...Fire? Noise? I don't really think either of these...looking closely at the photos, there is what appears to be a sprinkler pipe passing through the wall but the hole looks like it's cut quite 'loosely' and not sealed which makes me think the foyer/vestibule is a later addition...

Ian,

Good observation I hadn't noticed that. I'll have to look at the schematic of the second floor again to determine whether that five-sided foyer / vestibule was good for anything other than clandestine meetings and armed confrontations.

Oh, yes, and soundproofing

--Tommy

Edited February 1, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Ian Lloyd]

So, we've got Baker & Truly heading up the stairs at a high rate of knots, adrenaline pumping, on the lookout for a killer...

I'm guessing their awareness of their surroundings is somewhat heightened and they're on the alert for any movements, noises etc.

They're standing in the foyer/vestibule area questioning a person since MB, in his heightened awareness state spotted movement behind a vision panel in a door but, either they fail to hear 2 ladies running down the stairs or, if they did hear them decided that the noise wasn't worth investigating?

Hmmmm...

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ian Lloyd

[Ian Lloyd]

Not that it's really on topic, but what's been bugging me about this is what that foyer/vestibule between the stairway landing and the 2nd floor lunchroom is actually there for...Fire? Noise? I don't really think either of these...looking closely at the photos, there is what appears to be a sprinkler pipe passing through the wall but the hole looks like it's cut quite 'loosely' and not sealed which makes me think the foyer/vestibule is a later addition...

Ian,

Good observation I hadn't noticed that. I'll have to look at the schematic of the second floor again to determine whether that five-sided foyer / vestibule was good for anything other than clandestine meetings and armed confrontations.

Oh, yes, and soundproofing

--Tommy

Fun, isn't it?

[Thomas Graves]

So, we've got Baker & Truly heading up the stairs at a high rate of knots, adrenaline pumping, on the lookout for a killer...

I'm guessing their awareness of their surroundings is somewhat heightened and they're on the alert for any movements, noises etc

They're standing in the foyer/vestibule area questioning a person since MB, in his heightened awareness state spotted movement behind a vision panel in a door but, either they fail to hear 2 ladies running down the stairs or, if they did hear them decided that the noise wasn't worth investigating?

Hmmmm...

Yes, Ian, I see your point.

They should have disregarded, to some extent, the male in the vestibule, upon whom Baker had already pulled his gun, and paid more attention to the possibility that some female employees would try to escape. If they had done so, they would have noticed those two possible assassins in nylons and semi high-heels who were sneaking so loudly across the wooden floor, especially if Truly (being closest to the vestibule door) could recognize the familiar voices of two gals who happened to work up on the fourth floor. Five days a week.

Hmmm indeed, one supposes, doesn't one, rather.

--Tommy

Sorry for the excessive British wit, Old Chap, but I have been reading Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy and Smiley's People recently, and it seems to have rubbed off on me somewhat, and to tell you the truth, I'm still bloody pissed (drunk) and mad (insane) from having had (past perfect continuous or a gerund in there or some such thing) to teach British English the seven years I was in the Czech Republic.

Jesis Maria.

.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

The word vestibule is misused in conjunction with the area of the 2nd floor lunchroom, that area with the pneumatic door is NOT a vestibule. It's use is actually deceptive!

Wiki says:

In contemporary usage, a vestibule constitutes an area surrounding the exterior door. It acts as an antechamber between the exterior and the interior structure. Often it connects the doorway to a lobby or hallway. It is the space one occupies once passing the door, but not yet in the main interior of the building.

And just go to Google and check the images, all of them show that it is a space between the outer area and the lobby etc.

Not a small void on a higher floor between a landing and office/corridors/lunchroom as such.

When Holmes and co. mentioned vestibule, make no mistake it was on the first floor.

The lunchroom encounter is dead in the water any way.

[Ed LeDoux]

Thanks Tommy, but before we rewrite the TSBD architecture to include a feature never before called a vestibule, two facts:

Hallways, corridors and Passages come in all lengths, curves, angles and number of doors.

Some even have doors separating the hallway or passage into sections.

Vestibules connect to the exterior of buildings.

You have a date set for the vestibular nuptials yet? Where will the reception be, a small 'room' with three doors?

I guess that makes the storage room behind the lunch room also a vestibule! You can hold it there.

When Oswald used the term correctly it places himself in a very specific area. First floor, entrance. (see #171)

Mazel tov,

Ed

Fast Eddie,

That thing on the second floor is the funniest-looking enclosed, compact, five-sided, three-doored "hallway" I've ever seen.

OK, if not "vestibule," should we call it a "closet," instead? Or a "cloak room?"

Hey! I got it! How about "a compact, five-sided, three-doored, passageway nexus" !

Anything but "hallway," Fast Eddie.

Mahalo,

--Tommy

PS An overheard (by the NSA) hush-hush conversation between two gun-and-drug-dealing TSBD employees: "Let's meet at 4:30 in the Second Floor Nexus. You know, that strangely-shaped little hallway by the lunch room, the one that has three doors and kinda connects everything?"

Its you whom needs to slow down here Quick Tommy,

Yours is the oddest shaped 'vestibule' in history, let alone the fact it does not connect to the exterior of a building.

You incorrect usage does not make a corridor into a vestibule.

What exactly is your room a 'vestibule' to? The lunch room? Or the hallway? Or is it a stairway vestibule, by your definition it would depend which way your heading.

Perhaps you can coin a new term, multi-vestibular. I wouldn't stay up late waiting for a knock on the door from Strong's Concordance, or Oxford, although they did add awesomesauce so who knows.

vestibule is (architecture) a passage, hall or room, such as a lobby, between the outer door and the interior of a building.

http://the-difference-between.com/vestibule/passage

You see QT, a room not connected to the exterior can not be a vestibule.

Don't you have a mud room? Same deal. Or do you wear your boots inside like Frankenstein? A mud room is a type of vestibule.

I see you, much like Dallas' finest, would like to destroy Oswald's alibi by misusing the English language.

And this is the point isn't it. Make Ossie guilty somehow by moving the encounter away from the real vestibule to your faked up vestibule that never was. Its a rhetorical so no question mark or need to reply.

You are wed to this! Who is going to throw the bouquet, you or the 'vestibule'??

Where are you going to hold the reception?

Perhaps an "enclosed, three-door room" like the storage room behind the lunchroom? You can hold it there and call that a "vestibule" too since its enclosed, and has three doors!

And of note, the Warren Commission removed the word HALL from the second floor diagram. But did not include Vestibule!

If you check the Third and Fourth floor spaces have the HALL clearly labeled. They also have doors separating the halls from the stairway. Code would require a door/s between the stairwell and occupied spaces.

The self closer on the second floor stairwell door is a safety device for fire, not noise abatement. The double doors at the end of the hall, like on 3rd floor, were the original fire doors(by the #27) But as you can see smoke and fire could proceed through the spaces via lunchroom to the stairwell.

The odd shaped room was added as the interior occupied spaces (lunchroom, Conference, etc) were exposed to the stairwell, so a partition was added to separate them, and be compliant with an self closing door. Now interior had a way to access the lunchroom without having to enter and exit a self closing door, and as you may have noticed in the re-enactment videos, and photos those 2nd floor hallway double doors are always open. as allowed.

Was Oswald spotted by Baker, as Baker climbed over some invoice boxes on the second floor landing so he could get a good view into the stairwell door window and into the lunch room where Ossie was frozen in the lunch room doorway? Is this how you see it QT?

Ossie knew what the term vestibule implied, unlike my booted and neck bolted friend Quick Tommy, he had seen many vestibules at Embassies and the historic European Architectural concerns he visited, toured, and photographed. He was supplying a specific location, of which the TSBD had but one proaulion.

Shape size and number of doors are not requisite of corridors, being connected to the exterior is of vestibules.

The Greeks and Latin speakers knew that a vestibule connected the outer to the inner.

Tommy would rather have corrective surgery on the TSBD to avoid the obvious.

Lee meant Lobby, Holmes recorded it as such as Holmes verified it with Lee as to the location, first floor.

That is Holmes Checked and Mated your newly termed "vestibule" at the front door.

Bon Voyage,

Ed

[Ian Lloyd]

Can you point me to the evidence that shows:

The self closer on the second floor stairwell door is a safety device for fire, not noise abatement. The double doors at the end of the hall, like on 3rd floor, were the original fire doors(by the #27) But as you can see smoke and fire could proceed through the spaces via lunchroom to the stairwell.The odd shaped room was added as the interior occupied spaces (lunchroom, Conference, etc) were exposed to the stairwell, so a partition was added to separate them, and be compliant with an self closing door. Now interior had a way to access the lunchroom without having to enter and exit a self closing door, and as you may have noticed in the re-enactment videos, and photos those 2nd floor hallway double doors are always open. as allowed.

Please?

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ian Lloyd

[Ed LeDoux]

Check the national fire codes, Dallas county code, City of Dallas code for both fire and occupancy.

And perhaps Ian could tell us it occupancy rating, work performed by Bryd or TSBD to meet occupancy requirements?

There is plenty of "Evidence That Shows" Ian, thanks though.

[Ed LeDoux]

And does any of this make a interior corridor or room into a vestibule?

No.

Tata,
Ed