The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[Greg Parker]

According to Jeff Carter, Paine first said this to Russo in 1993 as an interview for his Oswald did it book, Live by the Sword.

Now, he may have said this to Lifton. But if so I have never heard Lifton repeat that in public. Although I do know he did interview Mike.

Lifton has claimed it here on this very forum and was challenged by Lee Farley to produce the tape - a challenge he refused to accept. Just one of a series of claims he refuses to back up. That little debate seems to have disappeared... or at least I can't find it now.

Did Russo question him about what he'd said previously about NOT seeing any rifle?

[Greg Parker]

Okay. I found it. It was not the rifle as such -- it was allegedly one of the BYP:

h) an 8 by 10 of the picture of him holding a rifle was shown, to Michael Paine, by Lee himself, when he (Paine) came by to pick up Oswald and take him to dinner at Ruth Paine's house in early April,1963. (I met and interviewed Michael Paine in 1995, in Boxboro Mass., and we went through this entire incident). Lifton, March 2, 2011

So it was also 2 years after Russo...

[Ed LeDoux]

My apologies for setting this straight, but Tidd brought this up.

Greg,

Let's cut to the chase.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I do want to address your persistence that there was one individual named Lee Harvey Oswald, whose visage was captured in various photographs from the 1950s.

I see two individuals. That is my perception. You may have a different perception, in which case I'm interested in and respect your perception.

Mr. Jonathan Gardner Tidd, When you post your school pictures from 50's on then we to may see doubles also.


Are you are two people, Tidd 1 and Tidd 2,... see how silly that sounds?
Unless a full head of hair going by the name Gardner Tidd is lurking about?

Are you saying you viewed one Bronx Zoo photo and then claimed it an Oswald double? Impressive Jon!!
Eye glass cleaner not doing the job?
It does sound rather ignorant on the surface now doesn't it Jon, two or so Oswald's, a couple Marguerites,,, its more like a drink list at a local liquor retailer?
Are you basing Harvey and Lee being two distinct individuals on a few bad military records and a NYC photo? Or is there more? Because if you have not been keeping up, H&L has literally been made into confetti Jon. What solid evidence do you have left Mr. Tidd? It appears it has turned to sand in your very hands chum.

This Bronx photo comes at a time when one of Ruth Paine's family ties are helping operate a youth house there.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21803

...Carry on...

[Paul Trejo]

_W

_{Actually I've been reminded that David Lifton claimed he taped Michael Paine in an interview making the same claim well before 1993.}

_{David Lifton is a genius in my book. I'd love to have documentation about any David Lifton interview of Michael Paine. Any links?}

_Regards,

_{--Paul Trejo}

_{Genius at self-promotion.}

_{Links? Lifton?}

_{Why don't you just ask him?}

_{Good luck!}

_{Well, Greg, I'm happy to send a message to David Lifton, but I don't want to bother him with mere rumors.}

_{You were the one who said "somebody" reminded you that David Lifton made this claim.}

_{Who reminded you? Anybody? What's that citation? Anything?}

_Regards,

_{--Paul Trejo}

Edited January 8, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Paine told LIfton Oswald showed him an 8 by 10?

Interesting. Because it seems to me that should denote that LHO was working on the photo himself then?

Which would be the perfect story for Mike to come up with. Keep it coming Mike.

It was really your Minox, and Lee worked on the photos himself.

I guess he wanted to keep those trust funds didn't he?

[Paul Trejo]

Paine told LIfton Oswald showed him an 8 by 10?

Interesting. Because it seems to me that should denote that LHO was working on the photo himself then?

Which would be the perfect story for Mike to come up with. Keep it coming Mike.

It was really your Minox, and Lee worked on the photos himself.

I guess he wanted to keep those trust funds didn't he?

This is non-sequitur, James. What in the world does LHO creating his own FAKE BYPs have to do with Michael Paine's trust fund?

NOTHING.

LHO had access to photographic equipment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in the time period that the BYPs were allegedly created.

Marina Oswald said she took ONE AND ONLY ONE of the BYPs. The WC refused to believe her.

Yet ONE BYP was all that was needed to create the other FOUR FAKES.

Jack White shows very well that in each of the BYPs, the CHIN, NECK, SHOULDERS, LUMPY RIGHT WRIST AND BACK LEANING STANCE *all* belong to Roscoe White.

This is a major clue in the story of LHO and in solving the JFK murder. Ricky White tried to tell us.

Also, why EXACTLY was LHO fired from Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? LHO made his Alek James Hidell FAKE ID there. Did he also make the BYPs there? Was LHO fired for using company equipment for personal projects?

It seems to me that he was.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 8, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Yawn. FF

[Greg Parker]

Also, why EXACTLY was LHO fired from Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? LHO made his Alek James Hidell FAKE ID there. Did he also make the BYPs there? Was LHO fired for using company equipment for personal projects?

It seems to me that he was.

It seems to me then that you should be able to back that up with documentary evidence.

[Greg Parker]

Paine told LIfton Oswald showed him an 8 by 10?

Interesting. Because it seems to me that should denote that LHO was working on the photo himself then?

Which would be the perfect story for Mike to come up with. Keep it coming Mike.

It was really your Minox, and Lee worked on the photos himself.

I guess he wanted to keep those trust funds didn't he?

As to Michael Paine, that is a separate (but related) issue. I have always believed that his "camping equipment" testimony is very squirrely, and have often thought Michael surely must have known that Lee had a rifle stored in the garage. But so what? Even if that is so, what would it show? Just that Michael Paine is one more example of someone who distanced himself from Lee and his rifle. More important, there's no question, imho, and based on personal conversations with him in 1995, but that Michael Paine saw 8 x 10 photo of Lee with the rifle and the communist newspapers when he came by to bring him to dinner, in early April. I had serious conversations with him about this. He was credible. If you want to understand Michael Paine, you must start with his very first interview with the NY Times (published, as I recall, on 11/24/63) and must also familiarize yourself with the evidence that he very likely bought a car for Oswald. If you're not dealing with that data, then you're not dealing with the reality of Michael Paine.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17428&page=7

Among other nonsense, Lifton believes Marina denied the rifle, the photos and the MC trip initially in order to protect Lee. Forget about her changed stories for the WC being due any coercion from your friendly government agents... what she told the WC was the truth!

As you can see in the linked thread, Lee and I kicked his butt from here to Buffalo and back. His is the most disturbing of all the propaganda to be found in this place simply because he is so practiced at it, with it's most insidious side being how well disguised it is.

You could learn a lot, Paul. Good luck at getting him to show you the Paine interview -- or any of the others he has stashed away that have never seen the light of day.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Ed,

You've posted a 1963 photo of my fraternity at the University of Illinois. C'est moi.

Carry on.

[Thomas Graves]

My apologies for setting this straight, but Tidd brought this up.

Greg,

Let's cut to the chase.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I do want to address your persistence that there was one individual named Lee Harvey Oswald, whose visage was captured in various photographs from the 1950s.

I see two individuals. That is my perception. You may have a different perception, in which case I'm interested in and respect your perception.

Mr. Jonathan Gardner Tidd, When you post your school pictures from 50's on then we to may see doubles also.

Are you are two people, Tidd 1 and Tidd 2,... see how silly that sounds?

Unless a full head of hair going by the name Gardner Tidd is lurking about?

Are you saying you viewed one Bronx Zoo photo and then claimed it an Oswald double? Impressive Jon!!

Eye glass cleaner not doing the job?

It does sound rather ignorant on the surface now doesn't it Jon, two or so Oswald's, a couple Marguerites,,, its more like a drink list at a local liquor retailer?

Are you basing Harvey and Lee being two distinct individuals on a few bad military records and a NYC photo? Or is there more? Because if you have not been keeping up, H&L has literally been made into confetti Jon. What solid evidence do you have left Mr. Tidd? It appears it has turned to sand in your very hands chum.

This Bronx photo comes at a time when one of Ruth Paine's family ties are helping operate a youth house there.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21803

...Carry on...

Dear Ed,

Like you, I don't believe in Harvey and Lee.

I can, however, recognize Jon G. Tidd in his class 1963 fraternity photo. Same nose, same ears, same face. Taking into considerations the many years difference in the two photos, the glasses, the beard, and the lack of hair in the more recent photos are all non-issues.

IMHO, you are very insulting to Mr. Tidd with your asinine statements and rhetorical questions.

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited January 9, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

There goes the neighborhood...

[Jon G. Tidd]

Tommy,

Insults are a key indicator. If they are made unskillfully, they mean the hurler of the insult is a mindless individual. Someone for whom an insult is easier to craft than an insight.

If they are made skillfully, which takes the skill of someone such as Oscar Wilde, they are jewels to behold.

I advise all here to think how skillful they are in hurling insults.

Food fights are another matter. There's nothing elegant about a food fight. Just having fun.

Greg Parker tends toward food fights, which I like.

[Paul Trejo]

Among other nonsense, Lifton believes Marina denied the rifle, the photos and the MC trip initially in order to protect Lee. Forget about her changed stories for the WC being due any coercion from your friendly government agents... what she told the WC was the truth!

As you can see in the linked thread, Lee and I kicked his butt from here to Buffalo and back. His is the most disturbing of all the propaganda to be found in this place simply because he is so practiced at it, with it's most insidious side being how well disguised it is.

You could learn a lot, Paul. Good luck at getting him to show you the Paine interview -- or any of the others he has stashed away that have never seen the light of day.

Actually, I think David Lifton is a brilliant researcher. His landmark, "BEST EVIDENCE" (1980) is basically confirmed as actual history, IMHO, by Douglass Horrne inside the ARRB.

Your arguments and Lee's didn't do much more than advertise your skepticism -- you proved nothing, IMHO.

As for Marina -- it makes sense to me that she would DENY EVERYTHING as soon as the world descended on her after the JFK murder, and then that later, when she was under oath (and sitting on her own fortune in royalties for her plight and her story) that she would settle down and tell the Truth.

I believe EVERYTHING that Marina Oswald said AFTER SHE TOOK THE OATH.

With Marina's testimony, the JFK murder can be solved. Without it, people have to make stuff up.

And David Lifton is right -- the BEST EVIDENCE by far is the fact of US Government tampering with the Bethesda autopsy evidence. Genius.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

Insults are a key indicator. If they are made unskillfully, they mean the hurler of the insult is a mindless individual. Someone for whom an insult is easier to craft than an insight.

If they are made skillfully, which takes the skill of someone such as Oscar Wilde, they are jewels to behold.

I advise all here to think how skillful they are in hurling insults.

Food fights are another matter. There's nothing elegant about a food fight. Just having fun.

Greg Parker tends toward food fights, which I like.

Jon,

Winston Churchill was quite good at it, too.

Overheard at a party:

Lady: "Winston, you're drunk!"

Winston: "You are correct, madam. But tomorrow morning I'll be sober, and you'll still be ugly."

Or words to that effect...

--Tommy

Edited January 9, 2016 by Thomas Graves