The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[Paul Trejo]

According to some good factual digging by Greg Parker in 2011:

March 12, 1963: Ruth Paine visits Marina at the new apartment on Neely Street (the safe house where he never lived). Also that day, Lee Oswald orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.

March 20, 1963: Ruth Paine makes her second trip to visit Marina at the Neely St address. Also that day, the rifle and the revolver are shipped.

Marina is allegedly taken away from the apartment on both occasions ... coincidence? I think not.

Well, Gene, you really believe that Lee Oswald never lived at the Neely Street apartment? Upon what "factual digging?"

Look at the tangled web you're weaving here, Gene. Without saying so you're suggesting that Ruth Paine is planting evidence for a murder weapon in LHO's possession as early as March 20, 1963 -- weapons that will be linked to the Tippit and JFK murders on 11/22/1963.

This suggests some cloak and dagger scenario in which Ruth Paine is working for the FBI or CIA? Come right out and say it, please.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Greg Parker]

According to some good factual digging by Greg Parker in 2011:

March 12, 1963: Ruth Paine visits Marina at the new apartment on Neely Street (the safe house where he never lived). Also that day, Lee Oswald orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.

March 20, 1963: Ruth Paine makes her second trip to visit Marina at the Neely St address. Also that day, the rifle and the revolver are shipped.

Marina is allegedly taken away from the apartment on both occasions ... coincidence? I think not.

Well, Gene, you really believe that Lee Oswald never lived at the Neely Street apartment? Upon what "factual digging?"

Look at the tangled web you're weaving here, Gene. Without saying so you're suggesting that Ruth Paine is planting evidence for a murder weapon in LHO's possession as early as March 20, 1963 -- weapons that will be linked to the Tippit and JFK murders on 11/22/1963.

This suggests some cloak and dagger scenario in which Ruth Paine is working for the FBI or CIA? Come right out and say it, please.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

No rental records to prove it, no utility records to prove it, no neighbor verification to prove it, Oswald's denial of it, the address being given to police by Mike Paine. No proof. Just a lot of smoke.

No one is suggesting anything except that the timing of events (whether real or merely alleged) seem to surpass mere random chance.

Ruth Paine was all snugly with the intel community.

[Paul Trejo]

No rental records to prove it, no utility records to prove it, no neighbor verification to prove it, Oswald's denial of it, the address being given to police by Mike Paine. No proof. Just a lot of smoke.

No one is suggesting anything except that the timing of events (whether real or merely alleged) seem to surpass mere random chance.

Ruth Paine was all snugly with the intel community.

OK, let's look at 214 West Neely Street again. This might be something, or it might be nothing. It's worthwhile to look at it carefully.

It's very interesting to hear the claim that "no rental records" and "no utility records" and "no neighbor verification" exist to verify that the Oswalds ever lived at 214 West Neely Street in Dallas.

According to Marina Oswald, they lived there from March 2nd, 1963, until April 24th, 1963. According to George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, they visited there at least one time, namely, April 13th, 1963 at 10pm.

Ruth and Michael Paine also testified to the Oswalds at that address.

I find it very interesting, and I'm willing to dig more into that aspect, because of its obvious importance.

As for neighbors' silence about it -- that might be a case of timidity, since this is a case about the murder of POTUS. The same could be said for rental records, since a local landlord is in some sense another neighbor.

But Utility Records -- those are verifiable and critical. It cannot be said that the Oswalds went without water and electricity from March 2nd through April 24th, 1963, so this should be verifiable.

If there are actually zero Utility records, that could be a problem for the testimony of five important WC witnesses.

As for the fact that Ruth Paine's sister worked for the CIA, that really proves nothing at all about Ruth Paine herself. As for the fact that her father's business in Latin America was cozy with foreign agents -- that's too common in foreign affairs to prove anything at all about Ruth Paine herself.

As for the fact that Ruth Paine's mother-in-law's childhood friend was the girlfriend of Allen Dulles -- that's basically a joke. It means nothing and proves less about Ruth Paine.

As for the fact that rumors abounded in Guatemala that the Quaker Charity Lady, Ruth Paine, was helping to kill Relief Workers with the help of the CIA -- that's an obvious canard.

The fact that Michael Paine was wealthy by most standards (i.e. he had a $300,000 trust fund) proves nothing at all about any alleged CIA connections. NOTHING.

Yes, there is rich material for fiction there -- but I'm not interested in fiction in the slightest when it comes to the JFK murder.

I'll do my best to find out if there are any Dallas City Utility Records for 214 West Neely Street for the months of March and April 1963 in the name of Lee and Marina Oswald. That's worthwhile.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 21, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

According to some good factual digging by Greg Parker in 2011:

March 12, 1963: Ruth Paine visits Marina at the new apartment on Neely Street (the safe house where he never lived). Also that day, Lee Oswald orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.

March 20, 1963: Ruth Paine makes her second trip to visit Marina at the Neely St address. Also that day, the rifle and the revolver are shipped.

Marina is allegedly taken away from the apartment on both occasions ... coincidence? I think not.

Gene,

When you say the guns were shipped that day, do you mean they arrived at their destination? I don't see any significance if they merely shipped on that day. (Or maybe I misunderstand the whole point of your post.)

[Greg Parker]

According to some good factual digging by Greg Parker in 2011:

March 12, 1963: Ruth Paine visits Marina at the new apartment on Neely Street (the safe house where he never lived). Also that day, Lee Oswald orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.

March 20, 1963: Ruth Paine makes her second trip to visit Marina at the Neely St address. Also that day, the rifle and the revolver are shipped.

Marina is allegedly taken away from the apartment on both occasions ... coincidence? I think not.

Gene,

When you say the guns were shipped that day, do you mean they arrived at their destination? I don't see any significance if they merely shipped on that day. (Or maybe I misunderstand the whole point of your post.)

Sandy, Gene was merely quoting me.

Since Ruth forged and posted the order, I think she would like to know that the order has been filled and shipped. I think saying she picked up Marina, with regards to the first time, gives her an alibi to be in the area from which the order was posted... in the second instance...well, who knows?

The fact is that she was not picking Marina up on Neely... all the stuff I mentioned is a fact.... it's all already been checked out. Again, in the absence of documentary evidence AND a flat out denial by the suspect, we are expected to take the word of a bunch of the most dubious witnesses in history.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Greg Parker

[Roy Wieselquist]

Paul Trejo,

Many times you say Ruth Paine didn't lie to the WARren COmmissioN. There are two huge sets of whoppers so obvious, so taken for granted in the research, one of omission and one of commission. The first is about the baggage handling job at the airport. First she said there was no such offer, then the man who had called her pointed out that he had talked to her on the phone at least twice, lengthily. So she said she had merely forgotten. This woman who ran Lee Oswald down and hounded him constantly about not working at least full-time to support his princess in the manner she deserved -- she FORGOT about this way better job offer?! It took a lot of FBI's time and trouble questioning the airport and employment agency to straighten out this simple matter. It stinks from beginning to end. RP didn't want Lee working there for anything.

Incomparably worse is how RP steered LHO into Dry Hole Byrd's TSBD. Her explanation is a total canard. She said she heard about an opening from neighbor Linnie Mae Randle: there was no job opening. For sure she heard that Buell Frazier worked there. Who was the Prime Mover for manipulating Ozzie into that building little more than a month before the parade through Dealey Plaza? We will probably never know. But we know for sure that he WAS manipulated into that joke of a job. It wouldn't take any great shakes to do it. Byrd himself, one of the Hunts, Murchison, Richardson, one of the KKK-Birchers (like the closet homosexual EA Walker), someone in the White Russian community -- all that one of them had to do was pass the word to someone Ruth knew well and trusted, "Get Oswald in that building ASAP." They all hated that smart-aleck (maybe that's where he got the name Alek Hidell) if only for busting up the Chicago plot. The person above Ruth could've been paid in cash, drugs, whatever: something outright tangible. To sweeten the pot for Ruth, all it would take was a paid vacation (she loved those vacations -- from doing nothing except bossing Marina around) or an especially good-looking lesbian to go down on her.

Paul -- I love your hard work finding the genuine, salient facts about important aspects of the coup de 1963. I refined my idea about the Edwin A. Walker "shooting", when no one was shot, from your topic about that. Greg Parker has the basic idea: it was a big publicity stunt to get sympathy for EAW and his live-in boyfriend, not-see Nazi publisher Robert A. Surrey. And also to bring in the moolah; Hunt and most of the deep-pocketed right-wingers had Walker's number: he had become an embarrassing loon. BUT you, like most JFK researchers, develop the problem of tunnel vision. You lose sight of the big picture. Your reply #203 in this topic is a case in point. "No bona fide CIA would ever be a Patsy in an assassination." You surely have heard of intell's Richard Case Nagell, who was certain he was being set up for scapegoat. He HAD to take the drastic measure, after all else failed, of shooting up a federal bank in El Paso to make sure his status and whereabouts were dead certain -- in JAIL. CIA invented "double cut-out" and "frame-up."

Regarding Ruth Paine, you're missing several important characteristics. One, she lived to manipulate. She was a small fry in her milieu of world-class manipulators, the Hydes, Forbeses, et al, the slacker clowns who think they OWN this land and everyone in it. Just because they were the first Euros to step off the boat. And she was very plain-looking, didn't have the slave-driving power of, say, a Mary Bancroft, Allen Dulles's hoity-toity mistress. So she ached to push people around all the more. Lee and Marina came along, and oh boy...she sure knew what was best for them. She worked Marina like a rented mule. Sure, her Quaker charity didn't allow her to assassinate Lee's character in an OVERT, profane way, but man did she stick it to that smarty-pants from the wrong side of the tracks. She never worked a day in her life. Michael's house and car and who knows how much financial support were good enough for her. But not Michael himself, no, he schepped off every weekend to live in his crummy apartment. And alack, alas, to hear Ruth tell it, it was all Michael's idea and fault, something like, "He had become disillusioned with The Marriage." You betcha. Ruth knew how to give the cold shoulder to the rare anyone who was counting on her for the least thing. And turn his insides to cold jelly.

Paul, you're right that Ruth and the White Russians went beyond the call of duty helping the young Oswalds. Just fixing Marina's teeth, nowadays it would cost a mint. But it was seldom total charity; they looked down on Lee and felt he was in their debt.

This country, we, are much to blame for how we treated same-sex folks until just recently. The J Edgar Hoovers, the E A Walkers, the Roy Cohns, the Ruth Paines. We twisted them with fear and cruelty and drove them underground.

Keep fighting the good fight, Paul, really. I at least get a lot of relevant info from your research.

Oh, and has ANYone ever been as CIA-connected as M and R Paine?!

Edited February 4, 2016 by Roy Wieselquist

[Gene Kelly]

Sandy:

Other than bringing forward what Greg (and others) have found about the Neely Street residence, my main point was that there seem far too many coincidences surrounding the Paines. If I were to boil down "the real Paines" to a simple conclusion, its simply too many coincidences. Ruth's two documented visits in March are an example of that theme.

I only recently became aware of the research and facts surrounding the Neely Street duplex. Oswald's brief and questionable residency (imprecisely recorded as somewhere between March-May) at 214 W. Neely St. coincides with much of the evidence created to establish his legend as a radical, capable of violence. This is the pivotal period when he allegedly acquired a rifle and a pistol, posed with the weapons for the backyard photos, attempted to kill Walker, and even hinted at an attempt on the life of Nixon (shades of Arthur Bremer and Wallace). As many have surmised, everything about the Neely duplex sure smells "fishy".

Coincidence abounds.

Gene

[Jon G. Tidd]

Will someone here please educate me as to why LHO never lived at the Neely Street address?

I grasp what Greg is saying, but I'd like to know the pros and cons. Including where Lee and Marina lived during the time period in question.

Many thanks.

[Sandy Larsen]

Thanks Greg and Gene.

Greg, I was curious about what you said about the Neely home and did some digging for more info. I found a 2011 thread and a 2013 one. You and Richard Gilbride were bouncing ideas off one another. I'm curious what your current thinking is on the following:

1. The use of 36 kW (if I recall correctly) of electrical power at the Neely property in March 1963. Apparently not billed to Oswald. Off the cuff I'd say it was for safe house usage and being billed to the owner of the property, Mr. George, who is a supicious character given his apparent use of an alias (different set of initials). What do you think?

2. Gordon Wayne Smith, who told Richard Gilbride he had seen Oswald and Marina at the Neely house a number of times. What do you think of that?

3. According to Gale Nix Jackson: George B. Gray and his wife "Clydie" were the Oswalds' downstairs neighbors. Clydie saw Oswald many times, and saw Marina walking the baby in front of the house. Unfortunately Gale's reference for that info links to somebody's PC hard drive, presumably her own (drive C:). I don't believe the Grays were questioned by any authority.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo,

Many times you say Ruth Paine didn't lie to the WARren COmmissioN. There are two huge sets of whoppers so obvious, so taken for granted in the research, one of commission and one of omission. The first is about the baggage handling job at the airport. First she said there was no such offer, then the man who had called her pointed out that he had talked to her on the phone at least twice, lengthily. So she said she had merely forgotten. This woman who ran Lee Oswald down and hounded him constantly about not working at least full-time to support his princess in the manner she deserved -- she FORGOT about this way better job offer?! It took a lot of FBI's time and trouble questioning the airport and employment agency to straighten out this simple matter. It stinks from beginning to end. RP didn't want Lee working there for anything.

Incomparably worse is how RP steered LHO into Dry Hole Byrd's TSBD. Her explanation is a total canard. She said she heard about an opening from neighbor Linnie Mae Randle: there was no job opening. For sure she heard that Buell Frazier worked there. Who was the Prime Mover for manipulating Ozzie into that building little more than a month before the parade through Dealey Plaza? We will probably never know. But we know for sure that he WAS manipulated into that joke of a job. It wouldn't take any great shakes to do it. Byrd himself, one of the Hunts, Murchison, Richardson, one of the KKK-Birchers (like the closet homosexual EA Walker), someone in the White Russian community -- all that one of them had to do was pass the word to someone Ruth knew well and trusted, "Get Oswald in that building ASAP." They all hated that smart-aleck (maybe that's where he got the name Alek Hidell) if only for busting up the Chicago plot. The person above Ruth could've been paid in cash, drugs, whatever: something outright tangible. To sweeten the pot for Ruth, all it would take was a paid vacation (she loved those vacations -- from doing nothing except bossing Marina around) or an especially good-looking lesbian to go down on her.

Paul -- I love your hard work finding the genuine, salient facts about important aspects of the coup de 1963. I refined my idea about the Edwin A. Walker "shooting", when no one was shot, from your topic about that. Greg Parker has the basic idea: it was a big publicity stunt to get sympathy for EAW and his live-in boyfriend, not-see Nazi publisher Robert A. Surrey. And also to bring in the moolah; Hunt and most of the deep-pocketed right-wingers had Walker's number: he had become an embarrassing loon. BUT you, like most JFK researchers, develop the problem of tunnel vision. You lose sight of the big picture. Your reply #203 in this topic is a case in point. "No bona fide CIA would ever be a Patsy in an assassination." You surely have heard of intell's Richard Case Nagell, who was certain he was being set up for scapegoat. He HAD to take the drastic measure, after all else failed, of shooting up a federal bank in El Paso to make sure his status and whereabouts were dead certain -- in JAIL. CIA invented "double cut-out" and "frame-up."

Regarding Ruth Paine, you're missing several important characteristics. One, she lived to manipulate. She was a small fry in her milieu of world-class manipulators, the Hydes, Forbeses, et al, the slacker clowns who think they OWN this land and everyone in it. Just because they were the first Euros to step off the boat. And she was very plain-looking, didn't have the slave-driving power of, say, a Mary Bancroft, Allen Dulles's hoity-toity mistress. So she ached to push people around all the more. Lee and Marina came along, and oh boy...she sure knew what was best for them. She worked Marina like a rented mule. Sure, her Quaker charity didn't allow her to assassinate Lee's character in an OVERT, profane way, but man did she stick it to that smarty-pants from the wrong side of the tracks. She never worked a day in her life. Michael's house and car and who knows how much financial support were good enough for her. But not Michael himself, no, he sclepped off every weekend to live in his crummy apartment. And alack, alas, to hear Ruth tell it, it was all Michael's idea and fault, something like, "He had become disillusioned with The Marriage." You betcha. Ruth knew how to give the cold shoulder to the rare anyone who was counting on her for the least thing. And turn his insides to cold jelly.

Paul, you're right that Ruth and the White Russians went beyond the call of duty helping the young Oswalds. Just fixing Marina's teeth, nowadays it would cost a mint. But it was seldom total charity; they looked down on Lee and felt he was in their debt.

This country, we, are much to blame for how we treated same-sex folks until just recently. The J Edgar Hoovers, the E A Walkers, the Roy Cohns, the Ruth Paines. We twisted them with fear and cruelty and drove them underground.

Keep fighting the good fight, Paul, really. I at least get a lot of relevant info from your research.

Oh, and has ANYone ever been as CIA-connected as M and R Paine?!

Thank you, Roy, for the interesting discussion. You make some points that make me rethink some of my positions. Other points you make I don't find convincing. Here's my response by the numbers:

(1) You say that Ruth Paine lied to WC about the baggage handling job at the airport. I see no lie there. The problem was the timing of the TEC agent about that job -- his first call was at the hour of LHO applying in person at the TSBD, and his second call was the next day, when LHO was already working at the TSBD.

(1.1) Ruth Paine did forget, as she said, because the guy didn't make contact, and anyway, was irrelevant in that scenario. I see no lie, and I see no ulterior motive in Ruth Paine's actions.

(1.2) You say that Ruth Paine was concerned to keep LHO out of the better job as a baggage handler at the airport. I see no such concern -- Ruth Paine's major concern was for Marina Oswald, and LHO wasn't even secondary for Ruth.

(1.3) I see no material evidence that RP deliberately steered LHO to the TSBD. If anybody did, it might have been Linnie Mae Randle, or possibly her husband or some family friend. I would look there. Ruth was too Liberal for Rightist plots.

(1.4) I do agree with you, however, that Rightists plotted to manipulate LHO into the TSBD. I just don't see Ruth's hand there, no matter how many times Jim Garrison insisted. (BTW, Ruth did appear before Jim Garrison, and he found zip, nada, zero. That's significant.)

(1.5) You say about Ruth, "She said she heard about an opening from neighbor Linnie Mae Randle." No, that's not quite what she said, IIRC. She just said the ladies were meeting, talking about wife-mother issues, and LHO came up. Then Linnie said she recently helped get her teenage brother get a job at the TSBD. It was Marina who pressed Ruth to call the TSBD.

(1.6) The fact that Ruth called the TSBD (instead of LHO) was a very positive thing to Roy Truly, since Ruth is well-spoken, clear, authoritative, and she probably gave Roy Truly the idea that LHO was an honorably discharged Marine with a family to support, and was eminently trustworthy. She didn't have to say that -- her voice carried the confidence, IMHO.

(2.0) Then Roy, you asked, "Who was the Prime Mover for manipulating Ozzie into that building little more than a month before the parade through Dealey Plaza? We will probably never know."

(2.1) I think that's a great question, and I hope we will one day know for sure. Whoever it was, was associated with the Radical Right in Dallas, IMHO. My money is on General Walker and the Friends of Walker. Maybe Mr. Randle.

(2.2) You evidently agree, Roy, so you named: "Byrd, the Hunts, Murchison, Richardson, KKK-Birchers, Walker, White Russians."

(2.3) I agree with you 99% in your lineup there, Roy, but I would discount the White Russians. They would never work with Walker or the KKK or the JBS (and they openly distanced themselves from such) because of their hatred for Adolf Hitler's legacy.

(2.4) Then you say that this group somehow influenced Ruth Paine. I think that's a leap of judgment -- and a miss.

(2.5) Ruth Paine was certainly a wealthy woman who came from money, as you suggest -- but that can just as easily link her with the Liberal Easterners as with the Conservative Easterners. You don't really have an easy match as you claim.

(2.6) Ruth Paine would wretch today, IMHO, if she heard that somebody tried to connect her with General Walker, the riot-maker at Ole Miss who couldn't stand to see James Meredith, the first Black American student, register at Ole Miss.

(2.7) Ruth Paine worked locally in Irving to support racial integration in local schools.

(2.8) So, Roy, I think you have the wrong number with Ruth Paine.

(3.0) That said, I do believe that SOMEBODY manipulated LHO (and also Ruth and Marina) to get LHO into the TSBD.

(3.1) You say that the Radical Right and White Russians hated Smart Alek Hidell -- and IMHO you're right about that.

(3.2) You think Ruth got "paid" with a vacation -- but that's superfluous -- Ruth was rich enough to take ten-week vacations every year. She didn't need anybody's pin money.

(3.3) I know that William Manchester insinuated that Ruth Paine is a lesbian -- but he didn't dare say it openly in 1967.

(3.4) IMHO, it makes zero difference one way or another -- it's just nobody's business, and it plays zero role in the JFK murder, anyway. It's irrelevant.

(4.0) You speak about a "Coup-de-1963", but I maintain that there was no coup d'état in 1963, but one was attempted.

(4.1) If General Walker and the Radical Right had been truly victorious in their 'revolution,' then the USA would have believed that LHO was truly a Communist, and invaded Cuba and killed Fidel Castro. That and nothing else was the goal of the JFK plotters.

(4.1) Guy Banister and his NOLA crew worked for months to make LHO look like a Communist.

(4.2) David Morales and his crew of CIA rogues worked overtime to make LHO look like a Communist in Mexico City.

(5.0) As for the Walker shooting being a "big publicity stunt," by General Walker, we've been hearing that from Garret Wean and his folks since 1971. Don DeLillo also pushed that. Dr. Jeffrey Caufield is the latest in that school.

(5.1) I think it's a mistake -- but I admit I can be wrong about it. Lots of smart people are converging on that theory.

(5.2) As for General Walker being an "embarrassing loon" in 1963, as you put it, Roy, I continue to disagree.

(5.3) For most Americans Walker was surely an "embarrassing loon," but for the Radical Right he was still a Great Man.

(5.4) It was well-known in Dallas that General Walker planned, and his people executed, the attacks on Adlai Stevenson in October 1963. Walker had many followers in the JBS, the WCC, the SRP and the Minutemen. Lots of cops followed him.

(5.5) It was because Walker had so much support in the DPD that he was never fingered for his known leadership of the attacks on Adlai Stevenson. (See Chris Cravens, 1993).

(6.0) Now, Roy, here is where I was surprised by your post, and have decided to rethink my position.

(6.1) Against my position that "No bona fide CIA Agent would ever be a Patsy in an assassination," you raise the historical case of Richard Case Nagell -- the CIA Agent who was certain he was being set up to be the JFK Patsy.

(6.2) That's an EXCELLENT point, and I really have to think about that for a long time. I appreciate the criticism.

(7.0) Finally, as for the fact that Ruth and Michael Paine were rich -- that IMHO is utterly irrelevant to the JFK murder. It doesn't give the Paines any right-wing credentials at all, contrary to what Carol Hewett and her followers argued in the 1990's. Not at all.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 22, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Greg Parker]

Will someone here please educate me as to why LHO never lived at the Neely Street address?

I grasp what Greg is saying, but I'd like to know the pros and cons. Including where Lee and Marina lived during the time period in question.

Many thanks.

Jon, this reminds me of those who say "if you claim Oswald didn't shoot anyone that day, you should be able to say who did."

I don't know who pulled the trigger. I only know it wasn't Oswald.

I don't know where the Oswald's lived. I only know it wasn't in that Neely St apartment.

So on the date that Ruth Paine was allegedly visiting that address and taking Marina off for an outing, the meter reader was reporting the place as vacant.

On March 29, the same meter reader allegedly scrawls the name Lee Harvey Oswald in the margin of the file for the address, but nothing is done regarding contacting this alleged new resident until after another visit on April 19 - at which time he reports the apartment as "occupied". They do this by sending a letter on April 24 (the same day LHO moves to New Orleans) - not addressed to Oswald - but to "the occupant." On yet another visit on May 1, the the premises are again vacant and the April 24 letter is still sitting in the mail box.

The only evidence here connecting Oswald to that address at all is his name hand-written in the file - allegedly on March 29. But what is not explained is how Fish got that name. His last visit was 9 days before that and he had asserted at that time that the place was vacant. Meter readers, as far as I know, do not make extensive inquiries regarding the occupants of buildings. Nor would a meter reader be the one to take a phone call from a new occupant advising they'd moved in. Someone supplied that name to fish, seemingly in an "off the record" manner, he jotted the name down, but was not prepared to run with that without the occupant themselves confirming it - thus the letter to "the occupant".

Now over to you and Paul.

Evidence. Hard physical evidence please that Oswald lived there.

----------------------

Edited January 21, 2016 by Greg Parker

[Gene Kelly]

Jon:

See the "Neely Street Mysteries" (2003, C. Wernerhoff) and the previous Education Forum threads with Greg Parker (2011, April 10) Re: "Neely St Questions". To quote some of the work done principally by Greg:

1. The owner was not called to give testimony, despite the importance of Oswald's stay. He is listed with three names: "M.W. George", "Waldo George" and "Jim George". He worked for an insurance company no longer in business.
2. One of the pieces of evidence placing Oswald at Neely Street was a pay stub found at the same time as the bus transfer, and which belonged to a former resident.
3. No rental records were obtained by any of the investigating authorities, and the electric and gas were inconsistent with true occupancy
4. The tenants of the ground floor apartment (Mr. and Mrs. George B Gray) would have been crucial witnesses to this extremely important time period (i.e. see Oswald with his rifle, or witnessed the backyard photo session, seen visitors). A Secret Service Report from December 1963, however, states succinctly: “The Gray family has now moved and Mr. George does not know where they moved to.”
5. Few neighbors recognized Oswald from photos as anyone they recalled. One couple stated that the apartment was occupied during the relevant period by a couple with two kids.
6. George Mohrenschildt's son in law (Gary Taylor) had photography experience. His former wife Alexandra confirmed “he was working on and off with a photographer”.
7. Oswald himself (in custody) vigorously denied ever living there - despite such residency having little bearing on the authenticity of the backyard photos
8. The mysterious owner, for reasons not given, claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated in May. He also claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination.

Most of the "evidence" that Lee Oswald lived there comes from his wife (Marina), Ruth and Michael Paine, and George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. Oswald told his interrogators in custody not once but twice that he had never lived there. According to one Carl Wernerhoff (Neely Street Mysteries) "... when it was pointed out that certain friends of his had told police that they had visited him there, he assured the police that they were mistaken. The tendency to disassociate himself from Neely St. - at the cost of contradicting the statements of others - is a central mystery of the case".

Gene

[Paul Trejo]

Jon:

See the "Neely Street Mysteries" (2003, C. Wernerhoff) and the previous Education Forum threads with Greg Parker (2011, April 10) Re: "Neely St Questions". To quote some of the work done principally by Greg:

1. The owner was not called to give testimony, despite the importance of Oswald's stay. He is listed with three names: "M.W. George", "Waldo George" and "Jim George". He worked for an insurance company no longer in business.
2. One of the pieces of evidence placing Oswald at Neely Street was a pay stub found at the same time as the bus transfer, and which belonged to a former resident.
3. No rental records were obtained by any of the investigating authorities, and the electric and gas were inconsistent with true occupancy
4. The tenants of the ground floor apartment (Mr. and Mrs. George B Gray) would have been crucial witnesses to this extremely important time period (i.e. see Oswald with his rifle, or witnessed the backyard photo session, seen visitors). A Secret Service Report from December 1963, however, states succinctly: “The Gray family has now moved and Mr. George does not know where they moved to.”
5. Few neighbors recognized Oswald from photos as anyone they recalled. One couple stated that the apartment was occupied during the relevant period by a couple with two kids.
6. George Mohrenschildt's son in law (Gary Taylor) had photography experience. His former wife Alexandra confirmed “he was working on and off with a photographer”.
7. Oswald himself (in custody) vigorously denied ever living there - despite such residency having little bearing on the authenticity of the backyard photos
8. The mysterious owner, for reasons not given, claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated in May. He also claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination.

Most of the "evidence" that Lee Oswald lived there comes from his wife (Marina), Ruth and Michael Paine, and George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. Oswald told his interrogators in custody not once but twice that he had never lived there. According to one Carl Wernerhoff (Neely Street Mysteries) "... when it was pointed out that certain friends of his had told police that they had visited him there, he assured the police that they were mistaken. The tendency to disassociate himself from Neely St. - at the cost of contradicting the statements of others - is a central mystery of the case".

Gene

OK, this is interesting.

First of all -- you say that you don't accept the Warren Commission testimony as final -- but when it comes to LHO's alleged words while in custody, you neglect to mention that the only evidence you have for their authenticity is from the Warren Commission!

Specifically, you are citing the WC testimony of Captain Will Fritz of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau. Will Fritz held LHO in interrogation on numerous occasions from 11/22/1963 up to 11/24/1963, including late night interrogations -- AND NEVER KEPT A SINGLE RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS.

Therefore, the WC had no choice but to rely on Captain Fritz's MEMORY for what LHO said.

And you believe him.

See -- it's not really a case here of whether to believe LHO here or not -- it's a matter of believing what Will Fritz said that LHO said. That's a whole different set of problems.

For the Walker-did-it CT that I advocate, the key supporters of General Walker were various members of the DPD. Roscoe White was named by his own son and wife. J.D. Tippit was named by Willie Somersett. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig cast further doubts on his own department. The lot behind the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll was a County Sheriff's parking lot, teeming with DPD officers and deputies on 11/22/1963.

When the public rushed up the Grassy Knoll to see where the shots came from -- all they saw there were DPD officers and sheriffs. One guy allegedly flashed a Secret Service badge -- but the Secret Service testified that there were no Secret Service men at Dealey Plaza that day. That's what was behind the picket fence.

So -- if we are willing to question the WC testimony of the Dallas Police Department -- then we really don't have ANYTHING to rely on regarding what LHO actually said during the hours and hours and hours of interrogation by Captain Will Fritz -- do we?

If (and only if) that is the case, then we can no longer claim that LHO denied that he lived at the Neely Street address.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 22, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

...I don't know where the Oswald's lived. I only know it wasn't in that Neely St apartment.

So on the date that Ruth Paine was allegedly visiting that address and taking Marina off for an outing, the meter reader was reporting the place as vacant.

On March 29, the same meter reader allegedly scrawls the name Lee Harvey Oswald in the margin of the file for the address, but nothing is done regarding contacting this alleged new resident until after another visit on April 19 - at which time he reports the apartment as "occupied". They do this by sending a letter on April 24 (the same day LHO moves to New Orleans) - not addressed to Oswald - but to "the occupant." On yet another visit on May 1, the the premises are again vacant and the April 24 letter is still sitting in the mail box.

The only evidence here connecting Oswald to that address at all is his name hand-written in the file - allegedly on March 29. But what is not explained is how Fish got that name. His last visit was 9 days before that and he had asserted at that time that the place was vacant. Meter readers, as far as I know, do not make extensive inquiries regarding the occupants of buildings. Nor would a meter reader be the one to take a phone call from a new occupant advising they'd moved in. Someone supplied that name to fish, seemingly in an "off the record" manner, he jotted the name down, but was not prepared to run with that without the occupant themselves confirming it - thus the letter to "the occupant".

Now over to you and Paul.

Evidence. Hard physical evidence please that Oswald lived there.

----------------------

Well, Greg, I'm still seeking Utility Company Records for 214 West Neely Street, Dallas, between March 2 and April 23, when the Oswald's allegedly lived there, according to Marina Oswald, Ruth and Michael Paine, and George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, as well as Captain Will Fritz and several DPD officers who searched the apartment.

But you posted something very interesting here, and I'd like to review all seven sentences -- sentence by sentence. Evidently it is a report from the Utility Company meter reader. Let's bear in mind the dates: March 2nd the Oswalds allegedly moved in, and on April 23rd the Oswald's evidently skipped town without telling their landlord or anybody. Let's look at the meter reader summary:

------------------- BEGIN OFFICIAL METER READER NOTATION --------------------

1. "On March 20, 1963, when the meter was read again, it reflected 36 kilowatt hours had been used, however, the meter reader reported the premises vacant."

This note skips what happened before March 20th, but we'll start from here. It shows only 36 kilowatt hours since March 2nd -- suggesting the occupants didn't have a television, or many electric appliances. (The Oswalds come to mind.). Now, the meter reader reported the premises were vacant -- but based on what? Did he peek in the window? If so, could he have been mistaken?

2. "This meter was read again on April 19, 1963 reflecting 66 kilowatt hours had been used and the meter reader reported the premises were occupied."

This report, four weeks later, shows only 66 kilowatt hours were used in a 28 day period -- again suggesting that the occupants didn't have a television, or many electric appliances. But this time the meter reader recognizes clearly that the premises are NOT vacant.

3. On April 24, a letter addressed to the occupant of 214 West Neeley was sent by the Power and Light Company as a user of electricity and requesting this person to make a deposit.

The problem with this entry is the date -- Ruth Paine says she moved Marina and baby June out of this apartment on the morning of 24 April 1963 -- and so this apartment would have been almost totally EMPTY on the 24th. Certainly there would be nobody there to receive a note to reply.

4. No response was received.

This fact squares with Ruth Paine's testimony -- she had moved Marina and June to her own house in Irving early on April 24, there was nobody to receive the notice from the Power and Light Company sent on April 24, in order to send any response.

5. On May 1, 1963, a personal representative of the Power and Light Company was sent to the address of 214 West Neely, at which time the letter mailed by the Power and Light Company on April 24, 1963 was observed still in the mail box.

This fact also squares with Ruth Paine's testimony -- since the Oswald's had abandoned the apartment early on the 24th of April, naturally the note from the Power and Light Company would still be in the mail box!

6. As a result, a cut off order was issued for the electrical services on May 1, 1963 and service was discontinued on May 2, 1963.

In this case the joke was on the Power and Light Company, because LHO was no longer at this address, and had no need for further service -- and besides that, LHO would almost certainly skip out on any money he owed the big Power Company.

7. FISH stated that there was a handwritten note in the Power and Light Company's file in his handwriting that on March 29, 1963, 214 West Neely was occupied by LEE HARVEY OSWALD.

This is the most important sentence of all. An actual official of the Power and Light Company, named Mr. FISH wrote in his own handwriting that on March 29th, 1963, the apartment at 214 West Neely in Dallas was occupied by none other than LHO.

------------------- END OFFICIAL METER READER NOTATION ---------------------

Isn't it perfectly clear by the very records of the Power and Light Company, that LHO was living in that apartment during the period that Marina and Ruth claimed, namely, from March 2nd through April 23rd 1963?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 22, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Greg Parker]

Jon:

See the "Neely Street Mysteries" (2003, C. Wernerhoff) and the previous Education Forum threads with Greg Parker (2011, April 10) Re: "Neely St Questions". To quote some of the work done principally by Greg:

1. The owner was not called to give testimony, despite the importance of Oswald's stay. He is listed with three names: "M.W. George", "Waldo George" and "Jim George". He worked for an insurance company no longer in business.
2. One of the pieces of evidence placing Oswald at Neely Street was a pay stub found at the same time as the bus transfer, and which belonged to a former resident.
3. No rental records were obtained by any of the investigating authorities, and the electric and gas were inconsistent with true occupancy
4. The tenants of the ground floor apartment (Mr. and Mrs. George B Gray) would have been crucial witnesses to this extremely important time period (i.e. see Oswald with his rifle, or witnessed the backyard photo session, seen visitors). A Secret Service Report from December 1963, however, states succinctly: “The Gray family has now moved and Mr. George does not know where they moved to.”
5. Few neighbors recognized Oswald from photos as anyone they recalled. One couple stated that the apartment was occupied during the relevant period by a couple with two kids.
6. George Mohrenschildt's son in law (Gary Taylor) had photography experience. His former wife Alexandra confirmed “he was working on and off with a photographer”.
7. Oswald himself (in custody) vigorously denied ever living there - despite such residency having little bearing on the authenticity of the backyard photos
8. The mysterious owner, for reasons not given, claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated in May. He also claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination.

Most of the "evidence" that Lee Oswald lived there comes from his wife (Marina), Ruth and Michael Paine, and George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. Oswald told his interrogators in custody not once but twice that he had never lived there. According to one Carl Wernerhoff (Neely Street Mysteries) "... when it was pointed out that certain friends of his had told police that they had visited him there, he assured the police that they were mistaken. The tendency to disassociate himself from Neely St. - at the cost of contradicting the statements of others - is a central mystery of the case".

Gene

Thanks Gene. Very good summary.

Just to add a little bit... the FBI did end up tracking the Grays down... except by now, they were calling him George Bray.

• He and his wife never actually come out and say clearly that they ever saw the Oswalds - only heard them - fighting.
• Claims the Oswalds moved in early May. This is in line with the owner who claimed Oswald had paid rent up to May 1st. The Grays (or is it Brays?) were also said to have moved out on May 1st by the owner. If the Gray-Brays moved on May 1, how could they know they Oswald's moved in "early May". Collusion with the landlord and/or FBI seems the probable answer. Also - Oswald officially moved out on Apr 24 - very unOswald like to overpay his stay...
• Claims they were visited on occasion by one or two young couples and a single white male of chunky build.
• Claims they were moved in by a female driving a white station wagon. Landlady at Elsbeth however disagreed. Claimed they moved all their stuff in a stroller.