The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[Gene Kelly]

Sandy:

Regarding this Neely Street apartment and residency, the topic has caused me to step back and ask myself some basic questions such as:

• when exactly (date) did the Oswalds move in?
• why did they select this particular address... who facilitated their rental, since it seems they were being mentored and assisted by their so-called White-Russian friends
• their 'babysitters' became the Paines at this point - Ruth with Marina, Mike with Lee - and we have some record of Ruth moving them in (i.e. a white station wagon). Seems odd that Ruth (please stay with me, Marina) Paine would put them in an apartment ... why not her place? Was Neely Street close to Ruth's house?
• why was Gary Taylor (George D.'s son in law) visiting Neely? It's recorded that he was there for a "friendly visit" and told Marina about his impending divorce (from Alexandra). What's up with that?
• Oswald used Gary Taylor’s address to take out the post office box where the infamous Mannlicher mail order weapon was allegedly sent ... that fact alone starts to connects quite a number of 'dots' (coincidence mounting)
• when (date) and why did they leave? So Lee could find work in New Orleans? Why so far away?
• or did they leave because of the contrived Walker incident, and the potshot that someone took?
• A chronology that on March 2nd the Oswalds moved to the apartment on 214 West Neely Street, and on April 24th Lee arrived in New Orleans to stay with his aunt Lillian Murret. Can we believe those dates?
• Its interesting that - after this infamous residency (maybe we can call the movie "Seven Weeks at Neely") - no one else apparently rents or lives at Neely Street until after the assassination. When Lee returned from his fictitious visit to Mexico and NO, why didn't he just resume living at Neely Street (with Marina).
• This is the only recorded time when Lee shows a militant and violent side ... perhaps he was off his medications? He acquired a rifle and a pistol, posed with the weapons for the backyard photos, attempted to kill Walker, threatened to shoot Nixon. He is portrayed as essentially a pacifist before and after Neely. Bad water in the pipes? Spring fever?
• Its been pointed out that all we have to go upon is the word of the Paines and the de Mohrenschildt’s, and some second-hand interviews of the mysterious M. Waldo George. ... no records. If the Oswalds really didn't live there, then where were they living?

Perhaps Neely Street was an arranged safe house, where all of the key evidence is being put into play. Maybe the game strategy is to keep Lee and Marina separate from each other, to better set the

intricate web being created. A few cameo appearances at Neely, and some impostors to complete the picture. After all, such a manufactured legend would be entirely consistent with all of the other bogus bread crumbs being laid onto the trail at this pivotal period.

Gene

[Ed LeDoux]

Of course they recall the people upstairs being the Oswald's, as that was what they were being told was whom lived there.
But under questioning that did not hold true.

Sandy, Minnie claimed it was the people she saw on television, and in the newspapers.
Clydie did not really know the people upstairs and the woman they talked to was not Russian speaking, no one talked to the man other than a greeting, if that, he was rude and or unfriendly.... and the Grays/Williams never heard any Russian or other foreign language spoken. No fights, etc.

Round peg meet square hole.

[Gene Kelly]

Ed:

Just envision what a pressure-packed time it was in Dallas immediately after the President is assassinated. Anyone with Oswald knowledge or acquaintance is probably besides themselves. Imagine if that happened today with cell phones, social media, Facebook etc. Information would be traveling at the speed of light.

But in 1963, people are considerably limited in sharing information. And ordinary common-folk are now being questioned by the FBI or DPD (or "reporters") ... in those days, one certainly didn't question authority like today. All you had to go upon was the television and newspapers. Fleeting glimpses of an Oswald persona (tee-shirt, black eye, handcuffed and surrounded by guys in Stetsons). The stilted reporting in the news.

Your points are well taken, as one of the strong indicators of conspiracy for me (personally) is how the evidence and witnesses are being carefully managed on the ground. Kind of like the police lineups with Oswald; the Tippit eyewitnesses. Sandy, Minnie, Clydie and the Grays/William's never had a chance.

Gene

[James DiEugenio]

This is getting really interesting.

Although I cannot take credit at all for this Neely Street angle, I am glad I started this thread.

[Greg Parker]

Greg, I was curious about what you said about the Neely home and did some digging for more info. I found a 2011 thread and a 2013 one. You and Richard Gilbride were bouncing ideas off one another. I'm curious what your current thinking is on the following:

1. The use of 36 kW (if I recall correctly) of electrical power at the Neely property in March 1963. Apparently not billed to Oswald. Off the cuff I'd say it was for safe house usage and being billed to the owner of the property, Mr. George, who is a supicious character given his apparent use of an alias (different set of initials). What do you think?

2. Gordon Wayne Smith, who told Richard Gilbride he had seen Oswald and Marina at the Neely house a number of times. What do you think of that?

3. According to Gale Nix Jackson: George B. Gray and his wife "Clydie" were the Oswalds' downstairs neighbors. Clydie saw Oswald many times, and saw Marina walking the baby in front of the house. Unfortunately Gale's reference for that info links to somebody's PC hard drive, presumably her own (drive C:). I don't believe the Grays were questioned by any authority.

Gayle, I think may have got herself confused. The Grays (also listed as Brays) never mentioned seeing her walking the baby. That was Wayne Smith in his chat with RG. The Grays WERE interviewed. But under the name of BRAY.

It looks like you misremembered, Greg. Ed LeDoux said the following in 2011:

I called Clydie Gray, she is elderly and hard of hearing.

She said she worked at Akers(?) Department store,

and George B Gray worked for the city as a Garbage man.

Doesn't remember the owner of the apts.

Didn't recall which church she was attending while at Neely.

She remembered the Oswald's living upstairs.

Marina used to walk the baby in front of her outside.

She saw Lee many times.

They were not friendly with them.

She did not want to talk much longer and had to hang up...

Ed

If what Clydie says is true, that blows your perfect record of nobody seeing the Oswalds at Neely. (Other than the Paines and De Mohrenschildt.)

Do you see or know a problem with what Clydie says?

(BTW, I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I just want to see how good your case is.)

Sandy,

I was going strictly from FBI reports. Had forgotten that Ed had interviewed them a few years ago. The FBI reports don't mention seeing her pushing the stroller and don't say outright that they actually saw them. It more or less leaves you to have to draw that conclusion for yourself. Since it was in the interests of the case against Oswald that it be clearly spelled out that the Oswald's lived there, such lack of specificity struck me as a bit odd.

That said, I have no reason to doubt what they told Ed. The issue here for me is that they refer to them as Lee and Marina.... but did they actually know them by those names? I can't imagine any introductions being made. These places were for transients... no one plans on staying long enough to worry about making friends with neighbors. I think it's more likely that they just accept the post-assassination story that it was Lee and Marina...

[Greg Parker]

(BTW, I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I just want to see how good your case is.)

I don't actually mind being proven wrong...

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo,

I must add more rebuttal to your statement in #235 that there was no coup in 1963.

On only the subject of the change in US foreign policy, you have probably read Jim DiEugenio's concise article, something like, "Reversal of U. S. Foreign Policy after 1963, EXCEPT Cuba and Vietnam." (because those two have been beaten to death) I'd link it here from my bookmarks, but I'm a techno-moron. Establishment historians do their darnedest to show that there has been nothing but continuity since WWII. And it can appear that way. What America did to Iran and Guatemala in the 1950s looks fascistic enough. Persia wouldn't play ball with the West over their oil and United Fruit wanted to make an extra dollar on bananas over and above the millions already made. So we had to destroy those two sovereign nations. And Patrice Lumumba was slaughtered as Kennedy took office, so what happened in the 60s and 70s was just more business as usual, right?

But no. With JFK out of the way, American and world fascism got going in earnest. LBJ installed Rafael Trujillo in Dominican Republic after a most horrific disposing of his predecessor. If there is a hell, all Americans of age at that time could be going there. How RT tortured and massacred his enemies makes the Inquisition look like a joke. Indonesia may take the cake for the nastiest genocide of all time. CIA, Dutch and Belgians already had the list of PPK supporters when we shot Jack's brains out in Dallas. So, when the coast was clear, we murdered Sukarno and then methodically murdered his ilk until they were all gone. Historians put it at 400K, 500K tops, but it was at least a million, maybe two. And that's two million of the best and bravest. Sukarno's successor, military strongman and Western henchman Suharto ruled for more than 30 years, until the late 1990s.

Israel got the Bomb, despite everything JFK's admin had done to prevent Mid-East destabilization. Before Jack's body was cold, it was full speed ahead for Zionism's nuclear WMDs. And then in June 1967 at the start of the Six Days' War, a year to the day before RFK was gunned down in Los Angeles, LBJ and Mossad did their worst to send USS Liberty, a communications ship, to the bottom of the Mediterranean.

Central America, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Congo again destabilizing nearly the entire African continent. A shortlist.

Then there's Vietnam and Southeast Asia, LBJ's pride and joy. There's never been anything like it. This is when the Military-Industrial Complex took over for good, though we didn't notice, like the frogs boiled slowly. Just three quick facts: 1. We dropped eight million TONS of bombs on SE Asia, 2-3 times what was expended all over the world in WWII. 2. 61% of the American boys who were killed in action hadn't seen their 21st birthday, not old enough to buy a beer today. 3. 1968 saw 108 official fraggings. It was actually several times that. In fact the Boomer draftees mutinied and ended the Vietnam War. Nixon merely codified it.

None of the above happened on Kennedy's watch.

The characteristics of a fascist nation/society:

-- marriage of big business and government

-- bloated, monstrous, bellicose military. America, 4.5% of the world's population, spends as much on "national defense" as the rest of the world put together; so, per capita, Americans spend about 20 times more than the rest of the world. We are the slaves of the military. They think they are immensely superior to civilian "dirtbags," their pet name for us. That's why USA is the only developed nation on Earth without universal health care, another thing stopped with the end of Kennedy

-- genocide (above), then along comes Dubya Bush who sees to the violent death of about two million Iraqis, in a blase fashion

-- racism, both FOR whites and AGAINST non-whites

-- vehement nationalism USA! USA! USA!

-- anti-labor, anti-democracy

-- a far-right oligarchy that gives special treatment to the wealthiest; i.e., the rich pay a smaller proportion of their income, due to a chaotic morass of tax codes, than working folk

So the far-right was not victorious 11-22-63?! How could they have been more victorious?

Another thing: KKK, Birchers, American Nazi Party, etc. are not the only far-right. They are only the most OPENLY far-right. CIA, DIA, MIC, Big Oil, Big Finance, they're all the same thing. They look down their nose at the workingman and fear nothing more than actually having to labor manually. This nation was founded upon slavery. The far-right's only concern is keeping it that way. Wage-slavery is still slavery. It's even better for the masters; they get the fruits of labor without any of the worries about labor's living conditions.

Roy, this is about political theory, and only barely touches upon the Ruth Paine issue -- but here are my responses:

.

(1) Your notion of "American and world fascism" is a biased political opinion. I simply disagree, and my reasons are legion. America has lots of problems, and we do have some petty Fascists lurking in corners -- but they have no POWER. We have a Democracy with Free Elections -- and if you don't believe that, then I hope you enjoy your dream world.

.

(2) Anti-Communist excesses during the Cold War, especially in Latin America, were horrific. David Morales played a leading role in many of those massacres. This weakened US Foreign Policy perception for decades. Our best friends were skunks and weasels, and we're still paying the price today. Yet the truth is that we don't control other nations. It's a fantasy dream-world that imagines that USA Allies do only what the USA tells them to do. It's *nonsense.*

.

(3) The world was suffering tremendously during the Cold War, and in many, many ways, North, West, East and South. However, the reason that JFK was murdered wasn't because of Latin America, Israel, the Middle East, Russia, Africa or the Federal Reserve Bank. JFK was murdered for one reason and one reason only -- because the CIA had failed to assassinate Fidel Castro, and the Right Wing in the USA chose the JFK murder as its last ditch attempt to motivate the USA to invade Cuba.

.

The reason I'm confirmed in my opinion is that after the JFK murder failed to attain its clear goal (for which LHO was specifically and carefully sheep-dipped, and for no other reason) the JFK killers ran away and hid in the shadows like the two-bit cowards that they really were. THERE WAS NO COUP D'ETAT IN AMERICA IN 1963. One was tried, and it failed.

.

(4) As for the Vietnam War, there is no proof at all that JFK would not have eventually gone in. JFK spoke out on both sides of that problem while he was in office. He didn't like the idea, but he also believed in the Dominos. It was a PROBLEM.

.

I further maintain that if JFK had gone into Vietnam, he would have executed that war BRILLIANTLY, and it would have been over by the end of his second term, with minimal casualties -- because as a Catholic JFK saw that the real problem in Vietnam was the behavior of the Catholic ruling class there. Banning Buddhism was the stupidist policy of the entire Cold War. JFK would have fixed that quick.

.

(5) Your characteristics of a fascist nation are inaccurate, according to political science. You omit the issue of Dictatorship, the lack of Free Elections, and much, much more. All the right-wing characteristics you mentioned still don't add up to Fascism, Roy.

.

(5.1) No, the Far-Right failed in 1963. The Moderate Right has certainly been victorious, staring with LBJ, moving on to Nixon, then Ford, then Carter, then Reagan, then Bush, then Clinton, then Bush Jr., and even Obama. What we see here is the fact that the USA had to take over for the British Empire after the British Empire collapsed in 1945. London was rubble.

.

(5.2) The USA is, like it or not, the Great Empire of Planet Earth. The Cold War was scary, but modern times are also scary.

.

(5.3) Nevertheless, Fascism is a very specific political condition -- and it simply doesn't apply here. We need more sophisticated concepts than that for 2016.

.

OK, Roy, enough of the theory. I'll get back to your questions about Ruth Paine now.

.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo #235. Thanks for that detailed reply. Wow. My re-reply:

1. "The problem was the timing of the TEC agent..." LHO was applying at TSBD when the airport offer came to Ruth's phone and another call came the NEXT DAY when he worked his first day at the book warehouse. Lee was not beholden to Roy Truly (hence to Ochus V. Campbell hence to David Harold Byrd) even that second day when they bestowed upon him that crappy "job". You surely don't think they OWNED Lee because he broke the plane of the doorway seeking employment. The fact is that Ruth committed a horrible lie of omission by not even telling Lee about the much better job offer. And he owed nothing to that crappy job the first day, second day, or ever.

1.3 "Ruth's too liberal for Rightist plots." Very true. Ruth was led by the nose, there can be no doubt. It's almost laughable that the plot would apprise her of any part of the massive scheme to murder the POTUS in her backyard. I say "almost" because she could have had some hatred of the man, if only for his womanizing and Hollywood buddies. The hatred for Kennedy in so many circles cannot be overestimated. Oilmen, military, segregationists, old money, Cuban exiles, the list is a long one. Include the Miss Prisses who tsk-tsked anything that appeared jet-set, hence "immoral." Heck, the old impotent white Southern baldies hated him for having a full head of hair! And how dare he not shave it crew-cut style in solidarity with the jarheads who're "fottin fer are fraydumb"! ("Fighting for our freedom" if you are not familiar with the solipsistic idiocy of our fine fascist military who think they are a superior species to us civilian "dirtbags" because they flap their arms and prance around with a gun in their hands. Actually they're allergic to honest, productive labor, so they have to tell themselves that.)

1.5 "It was Marina who pressed Ruth Paine to call TSBD." You must know how that can work. E.g., a housewife doesn't feel like cooking dinner one night, and when hubby comes home, she moans about what a tough day SHE's had, and lets drop that the fish-house is having a buy-one-get-one-free-dinner. And voila, next day she's talking to one of the kids and says, "Your father took me out to eat seafood last night. IT WAS HIS IDEA." As if she did him a favor.

Ruth let drop that there was a job working with books (Lee's first love), which was a TOTAL LIE. There was no opening. And sure enough, Marina gets all enthusiastic about how perfect that would be for hubby. Ruth says, "Well, okay, if you want me to, I'll call them. For you and Lee." Right.

2.3 "White Russian hatred of Hitler's legacy." Yes and no. The WRs of 50 years previous, circa Russian Revolution, were fascists supreme. Thirty years after that, a female White Russian painter poisoned FDR to death for allying with the commies who "stole their birthright." (Webster Tarpley) It didn't have to be a WR who put a bug in RP's ear that the TSBD would be a good employer for the bookish Oswald. BTW, the Russians have an amazing capacity for change and genuine sympathy, to wit George de M. He ended up teaching at an all-black college after he'd fallen on hard times. But in WWII he did some nasty "jobs" for the Nazis.

2,5 "Lib Easterners vs. Con Easterners." For their own interests, they can change on a dime. They are not two monolithic camps. Witness Cord Meyer, who was a bigshot in the World Federation movement, then joined CIA, and ten years later he's helping shoot our president's brains out in the middle of the day in the middle of the street.

2.7 "RP and racial integration." So very true and it was genuine. Something that has always amazed me about the Paines and the Russian community in Dallas is how much they yearned for improvement in the lives of the common man, especially the downtrodden. This is a Russian characteristic and the Paines were attracted to them largely due to that. Though really, they all kept the black folk at more than arm's length; they loved them from a safe, great distance. Again, Ruth didn't have to bear ill will toward JFK to be used as a pawn in his demise.

2.8 "She didn't need anyone's pin money." (for vacations or whatever) How true. But ENTREE (where's the acute accent on this typy thing?), that's another thing. That's what she adored, being invited to the parties and the enclaves and the islands of The Great People. C'mon now, admit she was a bit of a butt-kisser when it came to the rich, famous, and powerful. Way more than the average American, which is pretty bad.

3.3,4 approx. "Whether she is/was a lesbian is irrelevant." First, a disclaimer: if I were a woman, I would be 100% lesbian, and maybe a violent one. Any man who came within spitting distance of me would be blinded by loogies in both eyes. I know how rotten we are. Plus we cause pregnancy, no walk in the park.

I don't know or care if Ruth was/is sexually attracted to her gender. BUT she definitely was a man-hater. Today, even that would not be relevant. But THEN, there can be no doubt it twisted people. Do I have to list the VIPs who were driven to psychopathy by the terror? To borrow a phrase from the great Willy Whitten over at JFK Facts, BLACKMAIL LEVERAGE. In those days, most of the powerful were either extorting or being extorted, some both like J Edgar Hoover, for money or goods or actions or inactions. How hard would it have been for someone "to get something" on goodwoman RP, and make her fear losing her children or her alimony or just her reputation? I think she's about 90% pure (not 100% as you seem to think), which is pretty good for a human. But doggone it, she stomped on a better man's neck, LHO's, when he was down.

Marina Oswald Porter knows what RP is made of, and pretty soon after the events.

4.0 "no coup d'etat in 1963" and 4.1 approx. "...for the coup to be truly victorious, US would have believed LHO a commie following Uncle Fidel's orders." NO. LBJ and the gang knew no moron, not even an American moron, could/would swallow that whopper. They knew not to push their "luck"

More soon: the problem of seeing The Far Right as too discrete an entity.

1. I still disagree that Ruth committed any crime of omission, Roy. You're referring to the second TEC agent call, when LHO was already working at the TSBD. You say that LHO wasn't beholden to Roy Truly -- and that's true. But Ruth wasn't beholden to LHO in any way, either. LHO now had a job. Period. That was the goal -- not to be LHO's personal servant. LHO didn't even know how to drive at 23 years old -- he was unusually needy -- and all of his problems simply were not Ruth Paine's problems. Ruth was just happy LHO finally had a job. That was the END of it. Ruth didn't owe LHO squat. In fact, she was already doing too much for his family -- and everybody knew it -- even Robert and Marguerite Oswald knew it.

.

1.3 You admit that Ruth was too Liberal for Rightist plots -- but you don't give up on pretending that she played along anyway? To maintain that charade you've got to starting making stuff up. I have no time for any more fiction in the JFK murder, Roy -- it's been 52 years already. You say "there can be no doubt." I respectfully and emphatically disagree. You can find lots of hatred for JFK all over the USA -- but not among the Quakers. Quakers don't hate like that.

.

As for Marina's rationalization that LHO liked books -- that's irrelevant. It's natural for a wife to want her husband to have a job -- ANY JOB -- when the alternative is NO JOB, which is what LHO had. All normal men in Dallas had jobs. Why not LHO? Because he was too busy playing Right Wing Spy, that's why. Ruth and Marina didn't know his secret life -- and that was LHO's problem, anyway. He was the father. There were children to take care of, for Pete's sake!

.

1.5 You keep harping on the fact that Ruth ultimately got LHO that job at TSBD, despite Linnie Mae's and Marina's role in it. OK, it was Ruth who called. But, yes, Ruth DID LHO A FAVOR by getting him a job from NOTHING, and taking care of his wife and baby for him. Face it -- LHO was acting like a leech. To make conspiracy out of this you must pretend that Ruth new that the TSBD would be the site of the JFK murder drama two months later. That's reaching. You have no material evidence whatsoever. Ruth was as astonished -- if not more astonished -- than anybody else that LHO would be stupid enough to hand his rifle over to the Radical Right in Dallas.

.

2.3 The only people the White Russians hate almost as much as Hitler's people, were COMMUNISTS. The White Russians hoped that Hitler's people would save them from the COMMUNISTS, but instead Hitler's people kicked them in the teeth, took their land, and made them SLAVES to German Supremacy. So, the White Russians had two great hatreds: FASCISTS AND COMMUNISTS. It's absurd, then, to make up the fiction that the White Russians were helping the FASCISTS in the USA. They weren't. You're right to bring up George DeMohrenschildt as a perfect example. (Whoever claims that CIA is FASCIST or NAZI reveals their lack of political education.)

.

2.5 That's a weak argument about Cord Meyer because it just slaps labels on him. He was far more complex than that. Again, there's nothing Fascist about the CIA. The fact that the CIA hired ex-Nazis to help defeat the COMMUNISTS in the Cold War is irrelevant -- because the ex-Nazis had no Power and had no Country anymore. Their wings were clipped. They were valuable to the Cold War because they had computerized databases of known Communist Spies. It's only common sense to use them.

.

2.7 You're mistaken, Roy, when you say that Ruth Paine loved Black Americans at arm's length. She worked at a school in Irving which was at one point a MAJORITY of Black Americans, and she made real progress with it. So, you're just mistaken about it.

.

2.8 It's irrelevant to the JFK murder that Ruth Paine's family was rich, and that she was raised among the rich, so her childhood and school friends tended to be rich. One has to make stuff up -- and believe that the Rich are always to blame for all Crimes, and the poor are always nice and sweet. C'mon.

.

3.3.4. Your claim that Ruth Paine "definitely was a man-hater" is simply unsubstantiated. She liked Michael Paine, as quirky as he was. She loved her dad. She liked her professors at college. She was a fair minded person who judged people as Individuals and not as Groups. Ruth also warmed up to LHO when he started behaving himself better -- pulling his own weight, and helping around the house, as she showed in her October 14 letter to her mother.

.

Ruth didn't like lazy people Do you? Ruth didn't like liars. Do you? Ruth didn't like shifty people who made the FBI come to her door, and who left nasty notes about the FBI hanging around the house. Would you?

.

As for Marina Oswald Porter, she behaved as one ashamed of the way she treated Ruth Paine. That's why she never saw Ruth Paine again. The only thing that Marina said to Ruth Paine for the few days after the JFK murder in which they were able to connect was, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." That's what the record shows.

.

Now, it's also true that the FBI, Secret Service, James Martin, Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald and Marina's business leeches all wanted to cut Ruth Paine out of Marina's life. The Secret Service even told Marina that Ruth Paine wrote the "Walker Letter" and was "connected with the CIA" and Marina was pressed by Jim Garrison to repeat their story. Garrison twisted her words to make it sound like Ruth Paine *was* in the CIA, but Marina actually said the opposite. It was just a mess. Marina just wanted to put it all behind her.

.

4.0. In fact, many, many people in the USA continued to press for a COMMUNIST LHO. Walker was one. Will Fritz was another. Many DPD cops pressed this issue. David Morales was another. John Martino was another. The JBS had many more. The COMMUNIST LHO was the whole reason LHO was sheep-dipped in New Orleans and Mexico City.

.

It was all planned to the "T". But J. Edgar Hoover, LBJ, Allen Dulles and Earl Warren saw through the lies immediately. The Truth is, whatever they would have reported to the American People, the American People would have believed. A Communist Plot? OK. A Rightist Plot? OK. A LONE NUT? OK. LBJ chose the LONE NUT theory of LHO in order to avoid Civil Strife.

.

My evidence is that most Americans guessed that JFK had been killed by the Radical Right, but we generally accepted the Hoover Fiction that JFK was killed by a Lone Nut.

.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 23, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Greg Parker]

This is getting really interesting.

Although I cannot take credit at all for this Neely Street angle, I am glad I started this thread.

Indeed. It's always good to revisit an old topic because new info found in the meantime may help. You also get fresh perspectives, as we see here. And I get reminded what an awesome job Ed did with those interviews.

I watched The Thin Blue Line for the first time last night after having binged on Making a Murderer a few weeks back. Those shows highlight that official scenarios put together by police cannot be trusted. And that is what we see with Oswald --- except on a massive scale.

I do need to correct something in this thread though... Oswald was said to be beating Marina at the previous address on Elsbeth as well.

One of the main issues is that the landlady, Mrs. Tobias, was adamant that they moved themselves out of there using a stroller to transport their belongings... as opposed to the lady with the white station wagon who moved the couple into Neely. To move using a stroller means moving not very far... so if this was the Oswalds and they never lived on Neely... where did they move to? According to Mrs. Tobias, she assumed it was Neely because once when seeing Marina after they'd moved, Marina had indicated they were at "214".

I should add of all the dives they lived in in Dallas, the Elsbeth address was about the only one that issued proper receipts - at least that was admitted to. Mrs Tobias additionally stated that "Oswald" told them they were Czech (later corrected by Marina), that they got a call from a "George", and that "Marina" wore a ponytail.

Mrs. TOBIAS. She was standing by a car--you see, those cars were parked there and I knew where she went, my husband and I would take walks and I said, "Where did you go?" And she made "214" on the car and then I knew it was Neely--I said, "Neely."

Mr. JENNER. Did she nod her head?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a real sweet little girl as far as I was concerned and she was a lonely person. I think she was very lonely.

---------------------------

Mr. JENNER. Did he vacate the premises on the 3d of March?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he did. He moved out and that was on a Sunday that he moved out and we note when he moved out.

Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.

Mrs. TOBIAS. They moved on this baby stroller. We thought that was so funny, because they just--now, you see, you perhaps have already talked to these people where they moved over on Neely.

Mr. JENNER. They moved to where from your place?

Mrs. TOBIAS. On Neely--like this is Elsbeth, right down here on the corner----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, why don't we use our little plat here, Tobias Exhibit No. 1?

Mrs. TOBIAS. This is his apartment--right down here on Neely Street.

Mr. JENNER. On what street?

Mrs. TOBIAS. On Neely--now, this is Elsbeth.

Mr. JENNER. And Neely also runs north and south?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--no; wait a minute, it runs east and west Well, it's right behind an apartment building on Elsbeth, just one building behind that apartment building on Elsbeth.

Mr. JENNER. About how far away from where you are?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, it wouldn't be a block, it wouldn't be a good block--probably about half a block.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation with you or your husband as to why they were moving?

Mrs. TOBIAS. May I tell you?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; please do.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they fought so much.

Mr. JENNER. They fought so much.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--they seemed to disagree and they didn't get along so good and the tenants would come and tell my husband that they kept them awake and the baby cried so much and that he could hear them falling down as if Mrs. Oswald was hitting the floor, so my husband went over and he said he was sorry but there was nothing going on and that everything was okay and we had one tenant over him--nobody has been able to contact her either--and she came over, and she said, "Mr. Tobias, I think he has made a new opening down there." She said, "I think he's put her right through there." And he did break a window--my husband had to fix that.

Mr. JENNER. This was a pane of glass in the back door?

Mrs. TOBIAS. In there--going out into the hall, out of their back kitchen, going into that little hall going outside.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband ascertained what?

Mrs. TOBIAS. He had to put in a new pane.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they knocked it out--I guess from fighting--we don't know.

Mr. JENNER. You were't there?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. And your husband wasn't there?

Mrs. TOBIAS. They had come after us----

Mr. JENNER. You mean the tenants had come after you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; they said they could hear glass falling and evidently they had put a baby blanket there--a baby blanket was all over it, tacked down over the window.

Mr. JENNER. The pane of glass in the door was broken and they had tacked a baby blanket over the broken glass?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, all the way around it--they had quite a large blanket and they put that around it, so my husband told them if they didn't straighten up or, you know, they were so annoying that the other people had to rest too, that he was sorry but they would have to find another place.

Mr. JENNER. And it was shortly after at that they left?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; shortly after that they moved in over on Neely.

Mr. JENNER. During this period that they lived there from the 3d of November 1962, to the 3d of March 1963, did you become better acquainted with Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. Now, Mrs. Oswald would come in my house quite frequently.

Mr. JENNER. She would?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she seemed very lonesome, and she would be standing out in the patio we were talking about, and right up at my walkway into the hallway, and I asked her if she didn't want to come in and she would say "Yes," and so she and the baby came in, but she always would just smile.

Mr. JENNER. Did she speak with you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I was going to tell you--the first time she came in I said, "Your husband says you are Czech," and she began to shake her head--no.

Mr. JENNER. She shook her head in the negative?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She said, "No," and then she told me that.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She said she was Russian.

Mr. JENNER. She said that Russian?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; she said that in English, but she said, "My husband said it was bad and my husband told me if I said I was Russian people would be mean to me".

------------------

Looking at the testimony, it seems the "fighting" is merely assumed because of the broken glass.

And how useful was that baby blanket?

-------------------

So... Oswalds move from Elsbeth with a stroller's worth of belongings and disappear into the ether... except they must be close by because Mrs. Tobias spots Marina and even chats to her...

Around this same time the Oswald's move from Elsbeth, another young couple are being moved into 214 Neely by a lady in a white station wagon. They both speak English. He is employed the whole time. They have two small kids. They fight a lot. They move out in early May.

The whole thing is a quagmire, with one possible solution being that the Oswald's did move in, but were quickly moved out again and replaced by this other couple?

[Sandy Larsen]

It looks like you misremembered, Greg. Ed LeDoux said the following in 2011:

I called Clydie Gray, she is elderly and hard of hearing.

She said she worked at Akers(?) Department store,

and George B Gray worked for the city as a Garbage man.

Doesn't remember the owner of the apts.

Didn't recall which church she was attending while at Neely.

She remembered the Oswald's living upstairs.

Marina used to walk the baby in front of her outside.

She saw Lee many times.

They were not friendly with them.

She did not want to talk much longer and had to hang up...

Ed

If what Clydie says is true, that blows your perfect record of nobody seeing the Oswalds at Neely. (Other than the Paines and De Mohrenschildt.)

Do you see or know a problem with what Clydie says?

(BTW, I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I just want to see how good your case is.)

Sandy,

I was going strictly from FBI reports. Had forgotten that Ed had interviewed them a few years ago. The FBI reports don't mention seeing her pushing the stroller and don't say outright that they actually saw them. It more or less leaves you to have to draw that conclusion for yourself. Since it was in the interests of the case against Oswald that it be clearly spelled out that the Oswald's lived there, such lack of specificity struck me as a bit odd.

That said, I have no reason to doubt what they told Ed. The issue here for me is that they refer to them as Lee and Marina.... but did they actually know them by those names? I can't imagine any introductions being made. These places were for transients... no one plans on staying long enough to worry about making friends with neighbors. I think it's more likely that they just accept the post-assassination story that it was Lee and Marina...

That strikes me as odd as well. Very odd.

[Sandy Larsen]

I want to present an alternative to Greg's (and others') theory and have it scrutinized here.

First: Ruth Paine helps the Oswalds move from the Elsbeth apartment to the Neely apartment using her white station wagon. Mrs Tobias doesn't see this, but does later see Marina (and Lee?) moving some remaining items using the stroller.

Alternative First: Mrs. Tobias sees the Oswald's move using the stroller. The Grays/Brays don't see this, but later they see Ruth Paine visiting in her white station wagon. Not knowing that the Oswalds had already moved in, they believe that Ruth is helping them move in.

Then:

Lee notices that the power is on and decides to take advantage of that to support his CIA cover, which is that of an unemployed/low-financial-class person. They use very little electricity.

Marina is unhappy with the situation and the couple quarrels loudly on occasion.

LOOSE ENDS (i.e. the theory doesn't explain the following.)

• Nobody living at Neely afterward. (Perhaps the apartment is a safe house and Ruth had been instructed to have the Oswalds live there for a spell.)
• Clydie's assessment of Marina's English speaking skills is too high. (Maybe Gene's theory is better than mine here... that the Oswalds didn't live in the safe house, but imposters made cameo appearances. Or, the imposters lived there, as Greg suggested. But, if so, it's odd that the husband, being employed, didn't open an account with the electric company so that they could use more than minimal electricity.)
• Other loose ends?

Having written the above, I'm most inclined to believe the Impostor-Cameo theory. Which has its own loose end:

IMPOSTOR-CAMEO LOOSE ENDS

• Where did the Oswalds live?
• Other loose ends?

Edited January 24, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Greg Parker]

I want to present an alternative to Greg's (and others') theory and have it scrutinized here.

First: Ruth Paine helps the Oswalds move from the Elsbeth apartment to the Neely apartment using her white station wagon. Mrs Tobias doesn't see this, but does later see Marina (and Lee?) moving some remaining items using the stroller.

Alternative First: Mrs. Tobias sees the Oswald's move using the stroller. The Grays/Brays don't see this, but later they see Ruth Paine visiting in her white station wagon. Not knowing that the Oswalds had already moved in, they believe that Ruth is helping them move in.

Then:

Lee notices that the power is on and decides to take advantage of that to support his CIA cover, which is that of an unemployed/low-financial-class person. They use very little electricity.

Marina is unhappy with the situation and the couple quarrels loudly on occasion.

LOOSE ENDS (i.e. the theory doesn't explain the following.)

• Nobody living at Neely afterward. (Perhaps the apartment is a safe house and Ruth had been instructed to have the Oswalds live there for a spell.)
• Clydie's assessment of Marina's English speaking skills is too high. (Maybe Gene's theory is better than mine here... that the Oswalds didn't live in the safe house, but imposters made cameo appearances. Or, the imposters lived there, as Greg suggested. But, if so, it's odd that the husband, being employed, didn't open an account with the electric company so that they could use more than minimal electricity.)
• Other loose ends?

Having written the above, I'm most inclined to believe the Impostor-Cameo theory. Which has its own loose end:

IMPOSTOR-CAMEO LOOSE ENDS

• Where did the Oswalds live?
• Other loose ends?

IMO, any theory has to factor in and account for non-English to English speaking, leaving 4/24 as opposed to 5/1, the car being white (I don't think Ruth's car was white - will stand corrected if someone has time to check), Oswald's denials, the lack of physical evidence, the shadiness of the landlord, intelligence/police methods of backstopping false addresses and police method of creating scenarios - often with no regard to reality - with such methods amply demonstrated in The Thin Blue Line and Making a Murderer.

[Ed LeDoux]

Ruth's was Blue two tone Belair Chevy Station Wagon

[Sandy Larsen]

Ruth's was Blue two tone Belair Chevy Station Wagon

I'd read it was a white Rambler.

I just checked and found that deputy sheriff Roger Craig said that the car "Oswald" left Dealey Plaza in was a light-green Rambler station wagon. But the WC changed the color to white. Maybe that's where the confusion arose.

[Sandy Larsen]

UPDATED TO INCLUDE GREG'S FEEDBACK

Greg's list of requirements, which I agree are important, eliminate the scenario where the Oswald's lived at the Neely apartment. I am left with two theories:

IMPOSTOR TENANTS THEORY

The Neely apartment is a safe house. Oswald impostors are moved in by a woman in a white station wagon. The Marina impostor speaks English. The couple quarrel loudly on occasion. They have two kids. They move out on May 1.

LOOSE ENDS

• Where were the Oswalds moving to using a stroller? (Maybe they moved their stuff to Neely just till they found a place to live.)
• Where did the Oswald's live during this period?
• Why did the impostors use so little electricity and not get a power company account, given the husband was employed?
• Other loose ends?

IMPOSTOR CAMEO THEORY

The same as the Impostor Tenants Theory, except the impostors stay at the apartment occasionally, as deemed necessary. On May 1 they fake moving out.

LOOSE ENDS

• Where were the Oswalds moving to using a stroller? (Maybe they moved their stuff to Neely just till they found a place to live.)
• Where did the Oswald's live during this period?
• Other loose ends?

POTENTIAL LOOSE ENDS? (These may apply to either theory. I need to research them.)

• Intelligence/police methods of backstopping false addresses and police method of creating scenarios - often with no regard to reality - with such methods amply demonstrated in The Thin Blue Line and Making a Murderer. [i need to decipher what Greg means by this. I haven't seen these two movies.)

Edited January 24, 2016 by Sandy Larsen