The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[James DiEugenio]

I see I forgot to pose the obvious question in relation to the above information.

What are the odds of a 19 year old girl, who trained to be a pharmacist, meeting two of the first four defectors to the USSR in a city the size of Moscow?

FYI, the population of Moscow was over six million in 1960, and the city had an area of about 400 square miles.

Edited January 25, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Greg Parker]

SL: Thanks Paul... that's precisely what I wanted to know.

Not it is not Sandy.

​The source for Marina speaking English in the USSR is not some guy at a party in Minsk.

Its Robert Webster, via an interview with Dick Russell. (Armstrong, pgs. 256-57) And it was not just a phrase or two. The conversation went on a long time. But Webster pointed out an interesting fact: Marina spoke understandable English, but with a heavy accent. This detail should be interesting to anyone with a bit of curiosity.

​And it was not in Minsk, Webster met her in Moscow.

​The first American defector in the wave of phony defections that began around this time was Nick Petrulli. Prior to this wave, there had been something like two defectors for over twenty years. (Melanson Spy Saga,, p. 24) But now there were suddenly three in a year, then Oswald and then two more behind him. In other words there were three times the previous number in 18 months than there had been in two decades. And by 1960, the number reached the teens.

​Webster worked for Rand Development Corporation. Its president, Henry Rand, had been a senior officer in the OSS. Executive George Bookbinder also worked for the OSS. Their Washington lobbyist, Christopher Bird, had been a CIA agent. (ibid, p. 25)

​Like Oswald, Webster went to the the US Embassy and announced his intention to defect. Guess who he did this with? You got it--RIchard Snyder. The guy Oswald did it with. In fact, 72 hours before Oswald arrived, Snyder wrote a letter to his fellow State Dept.employees on his experience with American "defectors". The quotes are in the original. And he was referring to Webster. (DiEugenio, Destiny Betrayed, Second edition, p. 141) And when Oswald was preparing to leave, in 1961, he reportedly asked about the guy who had come to Russia right before him, Webster. Even though he was not supposed to know about him. (Melanson, p. 25))

Webster met Marina in 1959, when she was 19. Before she met Oswald. Is this how Oswald knew about Webster? Finally, after the assassination, the address of Wester's Leningrad apartment was found in Marina's address book. (Marrs, first edition, p. 117) For as Oswald was ejected from Moscow to Minsk, Webster was ejected from Moscow to Leningrad. From there, Webster applied for an exit visa. The KGB was on to both of them.

​Marina once told an acquaintance she had met her husband at a trade exhibition in Moscow. She was mistaking Webster for Oswald. (CD 5)

This is what you want to know Sandy. It tells us a good deal about Oswald, Marina, and the CIA's fake defector program, which the KGB had figured out pretty early.

He needs to made to provide citations on every single claim he makes.

[Ed LeDoux]

The whole thing is a quagmire, with one possible solution being that the Oswald's did move in, but were quickly moved out again and replaced by this other couple?

I'd go with a Czech coulpe, moved in with a white station wagon, an fluent English speaking lady and an unfriendly Czech husband.

But in 1963, people are considerably limited in sharing information. - Gene

Right Gene, usually you had a neighborhood snoop. We did in this neighborhood.

Greg will recall the Friddles,
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406&relPageId=232

As Mr Parker has pointed out and has been substantiated

No rental records were obtained by any of the investigating authorities.

No neighbors recognized Oswald from photos as anyone they recalled. One couple actually had little doubt that the apartment was occupied during the relevant period by a couple with two kids - which rules the Oswald's out.

Oswald himself apparently denied ever living there - despite living there in and of itself, having not much bearing on the authenticity of the BY photos.

The owner, for reasons not given, claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated back in May and that he had cleaned it up at that time. He further claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination.

There is no doubt (in my mind at least), that Marina never took any BY photos - that the one photo she took was in Minsk with Oswald holding his shotgun above his head.

The most puzzling part of Marina's Nixon story was that she locked Lee in the bathroom, seemingly forgetting that the bathroom locked from the inside. I say she didn't forget. She simply didn't know - and the reason she didn't know was because they never actually lived there.





Here is Mrs. Jurek speaking,

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142&relPageId=575&search=texas_instruments%20jurek

Mrs. Jurek again mentioned
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139&relPageId=451&search=texas_instruments%20jurek

The stories in PBM's book try to cover for many aspects, and in so reveal themselves.


3-31-1963 would be a Sunday. This date would be used by Commission and Marina for dating the Back Yard Photos.
https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/3xv68gzoao26duyd/images/1-7b6dc1f14f.jpg

4/1 is a Monday. and on Monday Lee gives his employer an address change to the 2915 Po Box in Dallas.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=234&tab=page
This same day JCS fires Oswald. So Lee gives $60 to George for rent...

Problem is JCS claimed that it had an IRVING address before this. Thanks to Hasan @ ROKC for this.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=127

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139&search=texas_instruments+jurek#relPageId=452&tab=page
When LHO applied for a job at the TSBD, they had 2515 W. 5th St in Irving as his address. Not a Po Box.


Of side note: if Lee is getting on a bus other TSBD employees ride to work 4 (or 5 days) a week, they would know generally where their fellow employee lived. Yes? Odd I don't see a lot of Beckley Bus riders involved in the WC report. In fact Beckley rider was ignored over a single questionable Marsalis bus rider, Bledsoe.

Cheers! ~Ed

[Ed LeDoux]

The Ruth Letter is dated March 4th


As Greg said this could have been a quick stay, and this fits with that.

The Tobias english speaking Marina,
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=44&relPageId=266&search=jurek

Tobias waves at Marina,...? WTH?
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=44&search=jurek#relPageId=269&tab=page

The part at the end about not signing WC statement is a hoot, oh mother!
Jenner nearly got whiplash from that exchange between Mr and Mrs.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57698&search=jurek#relPageId=68&tab=page
Here we find out the long statement Marina was supposed to have said in english by Mr T. is reduced to a hand gesture!

Tobias has issues of credibility.

Does Tobias ever call the cops?
Nope not once for glass breaking, wife beating, crying baby, late rent, neighbor complaining, xxxx commie? Please....

[Paul Trejo]

We tend to think of Marina Prusakova as an innocent in all of this. I've read some thought-provoking stuff that indicates she spoke much better English than she let on (e.g. with Robert Webster in Leningrad). As John Armstrong has pointed out, Marina's cooperation with the government and her ability to supply evidence at the most opportune times is noticeable and quite obvious.

This would throw another variable into the Neely Street equation.

Do you know if Ruth spoke non-broken English with her acquaintances in Dallas, Gene?

If she didn't, then I think that that, in addition to Oswald's denials that they lived on Neely, gives us compelling reason to believe that they indeed did not live there. Plus all the other evidence that points in that direction.

Sandy, when John Armstrong wrote about Marina speaking "excellent" English, he was continuing rumors that somebody at a party in Minsk, Russia heard Marina speak English "perfectly fine." This was before she married LHO.

It had nothing to do with Dallas.

FURTHERMORE -- the Minsk rumor wasn't an official report. it was a personal opinion from a drinker at a party -- and in those social situations, if somebody can say, "Hello, how are you," in a foreign language, then that's a big deal.

What did Marina actually say? Probably, "Hello, how are you? What are you drinking?" in a thick accent. But John Anderson was happy to suggest that Marina Oswald was reading the Congressional Record behind closed doors in a smoke-filled room.

Until and unless we get an OFFICIAL account of Marina's English skills in Russia, naked rumors can fly like birds. They don't mean a thing.

It wasn't neighbors in Dallas who said Marina spoke English -- it was some drunk in Minsk.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Thanks Paul... that's precisely what I wanted to know.

Yes, Sandy, I stand by my recollection there, except that as James DiEugenio correctly pointed out, the drunk was in Moscow, and not in Minsk.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

I see I forgot to pose the obvious question in relation to the above information.

What are the odds of a 19 year old girl, who trained to be a pharmacist, meeting two of the first four defectors to the USSR in a city the size of Moscow?

FYI, the population of Moscow was over six million in 1960, and the city had an area of about 400 square miles.

The odds are very broad, given that Marina was related to a KGB honcho, and she was a single girl over the age of consent, and the people she was meeting happened to be American servicemen during the peak of the Cold War. The KGB would watch Americans like a HAWK.

So, do you really think the odds are one in millions that she would meet them? Not a chance.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Gene Kelly]

Letter from Ruth to Jim Garrison:

"It has occurred to me that if I can be helpful to your search it is as a person who might raise doubts about your conclusions and data from a position basically sympathetic to your objectives. If there are ways I can help I shall be glad... I was struck by your passionate concern for Man, and by the intense grief you feel over the loss of President Kennedy. I, too, feel that loss acutely. He was a most remarkable person, and extremely valuable to our country.

Yikes and yuck ... makes the blood curl. What arrogance. Reminds me of the self-serving and gratuitous letter that George de Mohrenschildt wrote to Janet Auchincloss, mother of Jackie Kennedy, a few weeks after the assassination. George wrote Janet from Haiti on December 12^th and the tone of this letter - particularly his characterization of Oswald (markedly different from his previous descriptions) - demonstrates a manipulative and devious personality:

“Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina sometime last fall. Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband; she and the baby were malnourished and sickly. We took them to the hospital. Sometime last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character. Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously. Marina stayed with the family of Russian refugees for a while, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband. Somehow then we lost interest in the Oswalds. It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy for success and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions should have been taken. Remember our discussion one day on the plane from Dallas to Washington? We spoke of criminal children and of the terrible problem of delinquency in the South... Oswald is just an expression of that cancer which is eating American youth.”

As Super Bowl approaches, it certainly invokes the pragmatic challenge; "C'mon Man!"

[Paul Trejo]

Letter from Ruth to Jim Garrison:

"It has occurred to me that if I can be helpful to your search it is as a person who might raise doubts about your conclusions and data from a position basically sympathetic to your objectives. If there are ways I can help I shall be glad...

I was struck by your passionate concern for Man, and by the intense grief you feel over the loss of President Kennedy. I, too, feel that loss acutely. He was a most remarkable person, and extremely valuable to our country.

Yikes and yuck ... makes the blood curl. What arrogance....

Umm, Gene, I'm wondering exactly what words in those two sentences you cited from Ruth Paine to Jim Garrison "makes your blood curl."

Please explain your reaction.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 26, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Gene Kelly]

Forgive me Paul, but she sounds just like you... she was not there to "help" Garrison. None of this passes the red-faced, Bozo test.

[Paul Trejo]

Forgive me Paul, but she sounds just like you... she was not there to "help" Garrison. None of this passes the red-faced, Bozo test.

OK, Gene, you're forgiven.

But you've got me wrong if you think I that want to "help" Jim Garrison. Jim Garrison has strong points and weak points. His strongest point is that, because he was DA of NOLA, he was able to find the NOLA players who helped to set-up LHO as a Patsy. Jim Garrison identified 544 Camp Street as LHO's base, and proved that this base was strictly for the Radical Right.

That was brilliant. Jim Garrison had successfully upset the apple cart of the Warren Commission and its fictitious LONE NUT theory of LHO. The Warren Commission could never stand again because of the pioneer work done by Jim Garrison. That is his strongest suit.

But Jim Garrison was also weak insofar as he didn't pursue the Radical Right wing movement in New Orleans, and its Dallas connections.

Instead, Jim Garrison got side-tracked into a theory about a "homosexual thrill killing" because Clay Shaw and David Ferrie were gay. Then, after David Ferrie mysteriously died, Jim Garrison switched to a CIA-did-it theory, and tried to convince a jury that Clay Shaw was part of a CIA plot to kill JFK -- with a pitiful amount of evidence. He lost badly because his evidence was weak.

But he never changed his tune -- the CIA-did-it, he told everybody. And for the next 45 years the JFK CT community has been looking for that CIA plot.

It's been a long time.

As for Ruth Paine and her letter to Jim Garrison, we should remember a few things about that pair. First, when Jim Garrison sent Ruth a subpoena, she decided to go, even though she didn't have to. The Texas Government, with a focus on Dallas, offered to deny extradition, and urged Ruth Paine *not* to go, because the Dallas perception was that Jim Garrison was a complete nut.

But Ruth Paine had already decided, days after the JFK murder, that she was always going to answer all legitimate interviews and subpoenas, even if she didn't have to -- simply because "it's better to answer the question than to leave a doubt that lasts forever." That became her slogan.

So, Ruth Paine flew to New Orleans and faced Jim Garrison's Grand Jury. Jim Garrison was suspicious that Ruth was in the CIA, and that George DeMohrenschildt had "handed off" LHO and Marina to her at the 22 February 1963 party at Everett Glover's place, in a secret CIA hand-off.

This was the substance of Jim Garrison's line of questioning. Jim was just itching to hand down an indictment. Jim and his team tried everything they could. After days of questioning, however, they found NOTHING at all on Ruth Paine. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

At the end of the questioning, Jim Garrison pulled Ruth Paine aside, looked deep in her eyes, and asked her as politely as he could, "You know I mean well, don't you? You loved Jack Kennedy as much as I do, didn't you? Would you please do everything you can to help us find out who did this?" Jim practically had tears in his eyes.

Ruth Paine was stunned at this change of attitude on the part of Jim Garrison. At first, (as she tells later) she thought that it was bizarre that the great Jim Garrison was asking for HER help! What in the world could SHE find out that his huge Legal Team couldn't find out!?!

Later, however, she felt sorry for Jim Garrison. That's when she wrote that letter to him, that I reproduced in full in post #304.

So, Gene, when you express your loathing for Ruth Paine based on the two sentences you quoted above, and I asked to explain exactly why those two sentences offend you -- you can't really find anything INSIDE her actual words -- it's only your bias against her, based on all this reading from Carol Hewett's followers -- that's the real issue. Right?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 26, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

LOL, "the drunk was in Moscow not Minsk"? That is rich even for you. Because you were not there. And, as explained, your data on this was pretty much a fiction. When did you speak with Webster?

Secondly, how many Russian citizens, just plain ordinary citizens, do you think met both Webster and Oswald in a city the size of Moscow? I would be willing to wager, Marina was very likely the only one. Therefore, most people would not think it was a coincidence. On the WC, Richard Russell had some very severe reservations about Marina. (Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, pgs. 148-149) As he did Ruth Paine.

And evidently you are ignoring what both TItovets and Norman Mailer and James Martin had to say about Marina's past in Russia. Or you want to ignore it. (Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, p. 147) Further, Robert Oswald said that not only did Marina understand English, she spoke it and even wrote it. (ibid, p. 149) You cannot do that in one year.

FInally, you're riff on Jim Garrison, and what he thought and when, is as bad as Caufield's. Garrison never thought it was a homosexual thrill killing. And he did not switch to a CIA theory after Ferrie's death. That is just a cheap smear by you. When I review Caufield's book I will eradicate both him and you on this.

Edited January 26, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Tom Neal]

In 2011-12, ABC aired the series Pan Am, a look at the lives of a Pan Am flight crew in the early 1960s. Though fictional, it was based on solid archival research by a former Pan Am

employee, Nancy Hult Ganis. One of the most controversial aspects of the series was in showing a relationship between the airline and the CIA, and more specifically between the CIA and

members of flight crews. In fact, some of the research conducted by Ganis included finding airline employees being involved with “State Department operations [involving] behind-the-scene

missions in dangerous locations.” Other former flight attendants interviewed in the wake of the series concurred that the show portrayed CIA involvement with the airline and some

employees in a “realistic” fashion.

Greg,

Having more than 30 years experience in the airlines, although not with Pan Am, the series was accurate. CIA et al DID utilize airline flight personnel as couriers, handlers, mules, etc. Why wouldn't they? Flight crews were familiar faces to the customs people who rarely made anything more than a cursory inspection of our luggage. Prior to 911 anyway, if a departure was running late, crews were routinely routed around customs.

The series "Pan Am" was cancelled after a single season due to "low ratings". Nancy Hult Ganis who was also the executive producer made a number of valiant efforts to find a home for a second season of Pan Am, but several promising opportunities were abruptly terminated.

Howard Hughes and the CIA had a long-term well-known working agreement. When Hughes was running TWA, at least according to several old-time TWA pilots that I knew many years ago, CIA cameras were regularly installed in the nose or belly of their aircraft. Especially on charter flights to "unusual" destinations.

Tom

PS

OOOPS! I was reading this thread from the beginning and I didn't notice until just now that this post is kinda old'.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Thomas Graves]

We tend to think of Marina Prusakova as an innocent in all of this. I've read some thought-provoking stuff that indicates she spoke much better English than she let on (e.g. with Robert Webster in Leningrad). As John Armstrong has pointed out, Marina's cooperation with the government and her ability to supply evidence at the most opportune times is noticeable and quite obvious.

This would throw another variable into the Neely Street equation.

Do you know if Ruth spoke non-broken English with her acquaintances in Dallas, Gene?

If she didn't, then I think that that, in addition to Oswald's denials that they lived on Neely, gives us compelling reason to believe that they indeed did not live there. Plus all the other evidence that points in that direction.

Sandy, when John Armstrong wrote about Marina speaking "excellent" English, he was continuing rumors that somebody at a party in Minsk, Russia heard Marina speak English "perfectly fine." This was before she married LHO.

It had nothing to do with Dallas.

FURTHERMORE -- the Minsk rumor wasn't an official report. it was a personal opinion from a drinker at a party -- and in those social situations, if somebody can say, "Hello, how are you," in a foreign language, then that's a big deal.

What did Marina actually say? Probably, "Hello, how are you? What are you drinking?" in a thick accent. But John Anderson was happy to suggest that Marina Oswald was reading the Congressional Record behind closed doors in a smoke-filled room.

Until and unless we get an OFFICIAL account of Marina's English skills in Russia, naked rumors can fly like birds. They don't mean a thing.

It wasn't neighbors in Dallas who said Marina spoke English -- it was some drunk in Minsk.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Thanks Paul... that's precisely what I wanted to know.

Unless, of course, Marina was an English-speaking spy with a prostitute background, assigned to "hook up with" Marguerite Oswald's son, Lee.

http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2009/10/from-marina-prusakova-with-love.html

Just sayin'

--Tommy

sexed-up a bit and bumped

[James DiEugenio]

Boy that's really interesting Tom.

Always nice to have first hand confirmation.

Maybe Greg is right.

[Tom Neal]

Boy that's really interesting Tom.

Always nice to have first hand confirmation.

Maybe Greg is right.

Jim, Thanks for the acknowledgement.

"Pan Am" and Greg have it right.

Tom