The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[Paul Trejo]

Michael and Ruth Paine were in a different social class than Lee and Marina Oswald. That has been recognized by the Warren Commission and by Jim Garrison, and has been underscored by Jim DiEugenio, who started this particular thread on the FORUM.

Why would these wealthy Easterners befriend these poor Southerners? Since it doesn't make sense -- superficially -- Jim Garrison and James DiEugenio chose to invent a CIA plot to explain their "friendship."

In their make-believe scenario, Jim Garrison in 1968 and James DiEugenio in 2012 (DB2) say that Ruth Paine's CIA job was to "isolate Marina from Lee." She was supposed to do this starting in February 1963, according to this ridiculous theory.

It's ridiculous because there's no good reason for it. Why bother isolating her? What would be the point? It's just pulp-fiction.

The TRUTH of the matter is, that Michael Paine had almost no interest in the Oswalds, except that his wife (from whom he was separated since September 1962) kept bringing them to their house, around his children. So, he came over to see what they were like -- especially LHO.

Ruth Paine admitted that she didn't like LHO very much, except for a short period in late September, early October, when LHO began showing a little more appreciation for the fact that Ruth Paine was taking better care of Marina and their newborn baby Rachel, than LHO was.

Michael didn't think much of LHO. Michael didn't mind Marina in his house -- she was clearly needy, and she asked Ruth Paine for advice and help, and Ruth Paine, being a Quaker and a US patriot, chose to help Marina.

The reasons -- as both Marina and Ruth testified -- were these: in March 1963 Marina told Ruth that: (1) she was pregnant; and that (2) LHO was threatening to send her back to Russia without him.

This was because LHO didn't want to settle down with a steady job and take care of a family -- he had a secret life going on that he didn't want to talk to Marina about -- but Marina wanted a normal life. Marina was college educated in Russia -- she had a degree in pharmacology. If it wasn't for the babies, and the fact that LHO discouraged her from learning English, she could have had a better job than LHO could ever get (outside the Marines).

When it started, Ruth only wanted a friend like Marina so that she could practice conversational Russian. But starting in March, Marina Oswald became Ruth's new "project" because Marina was desperate. What if LHO abanoned her? The Oswald family didn't like her much, partly because she only spoke Russian and they only spoke English. So Ruth Paine's heart went out to Marina Oswald -- that was it.

But LHO would start having his own problems. He'd lost his job on April Fool's Day. He didn't tell Marina or the Paines -- and on April 2nd, Michael Paine drove over to their Neeley Street address to give the Oswalds a ride to Irving, Texas, where Ruth wanted everybody to get together for supper -- for the very first time.

Michael tried to talk with LHO to be polite, but the only thing they had in common was that both of them had read some of the work of Karl Marx. Small talk and a little Marx. Here's a portait of one of the conversations between LHO and Michael. The conversation was about the Communist Party newspaper, The Worker. I think this exchange gives a good picture about the superficial relationship between Michael Paine and LHO:

------------- BEGIN EXTRACT WC TESTIMONY 18 March 1964 -- Vol. 2, p. 384 ----------------

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss these publications with Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, we talked about "The Worker." He told me that you could tell what “they wanted you to do” by reading between the lines. He then gave me an issue to look and see. I wanted to see if I could read between the lines and see what they wanted you to do. I don’t think I had very much patience to go through it.
...
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he discuss with you, your ability or inability to determine what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines after you had read the publication?

Mr. PAINE. No, I just handed it back to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else said between you at that time on that subject?

Mr. PAINE. He asked me how did I like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say?

Mr. PAINE. I said I thought it was awful extreme.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he respond to that?

Mr. PAINE. I think that was the end of it.
...
Representative FORD. What prompted him to hand you The Worker?

Mr. PAINE. I was asking to see some literature that he liked to read.

...
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you draw any inference as a result of this conversation when Oswald said that you could tell what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines?

Mr. PAINE. Well, it made me realize that he would like to be an activist. It made me also feel that he wasn’t very well connected with a group or he wouldn’t have such a tenuous way of communication, and I thought it was rather childish – like Dick Tracy – to think that that was a bona fide way of communicating, or being a member of this cause.
...
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any Cuban literature?

Mr. PAINE. No, I didn’t.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever’ know that he ever received any such literature?

Mr. PAINE. No, never. Until after the assassination, I never thought of Cuba in connection with Oswald, or even in connection with the Communist Party.

------------- END EXTRACT WC TESTIMONY 18 March 1964 -- Vol. 2, p. 384 ----------------

Michael Paine was a well-read Liberal Easterner, and his father had also been a Trotskyist, so Michael Paine knew a lot about Marxism.

From this exchange we see that Michael was unimpressed with LHO, he says, "childish." If LHO really wanted to be a political activist, then he should have joined that political group, instead of trying to play "Dick Tracy."

Michael concluded that LHO was dunce and a malcontent. If it wasn't for Marina's pregnacy and poverty, and Ruth's care for Marina, then Michael Paine would have had nothing to do with LHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 20, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

PT: It's ridiculous [to isolate Marina from Lee] because there's no good reason for it. Why bother isolating her? What would be the point? It's just pulp-fiction.

Only if you buy into Caufield's pile of pickled baloney. (I am almost done with this horrendous book. Its the worst book on the JFK case since Ultimate Sacrifice.Trejo has the critical apparatus of a sixth grader. Or he is so bound up in his own ideology that it does not matter to him what an author says or how he builds his case.)

​Point Number One for the logical thinking world: (That is outside of Trejo and Caufield)

​Ruth succeeded in separating Marina from Lee by the time Oswald returned from New Orleans. (I leave out Mexico City since it is an open question as to if Oswald was in MC, and what he did there.) This is a fact. It is also a fact that Ruth began on this tangent many months earlier, like three weeks after she met Marina. And PT's silly pregnancy excuse is belied by looking at a calendar.

Point Number Two for the logical thinking world:

By separating out Marina from Lee at this time, the Paine garage became the main repository for much of the physical evidence that the authorities used to build their case against Oswald. This is a fact.

​Point Number Three for the Logical Thinking World:

Ruth Paine was instrumental in getting Oswald his job at the TSBD. In fact, she guaranteed he would be there on 11/22/63. How? By not relaying the message from employment agent Robert Adams to Oswald about a better paying job at Trans Texas Airport. (James DiEugenio, Destiny Betrayed, p. 163)

​Point Number Four for the Logical Thinking World:

For days, weeks, months after the assassination Ruth Paine's house continued to pour out more "evidence" that incriminated Oswald in the murder of Kennedy. It got so bad that the Secret Service actually returned some of it i.e. the Walker Note. They thought she wrote it. (ibid p. 203) And they also told Marina not to associate with Ruth anymore since the assassination would look too much like a CIA plot. (James Douglass, JFK and the Unspeakable, p. 173)

​Point Number Five for the Logical Thinking World:

As Carol Hewett demonstrated in her excellent and valuable essay, "The Paines' Participation in the Minox Camera Charade", the Paines colluded in a deception with the top level of the FBI, including Hoover, to separate the dead Oswald from his MInox Camera. There is no other way to characterize that act except as a purposeful attempt to manipulate and obfuscate the evidentiary record. (See The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, pgs. 238-48)

​I could go on and on. But the real question here is not so much in the record, since the above are all facts, but the real question is as to why PT is so violently opposed to them, like a medieval Crusader zealot. And also why he buys into Caufield's absolute bloated mess of a book. A volume that is so bad that it reminds me of the worst of Harry Livingstone.

A true point to ponder. And one which everyone will understand in spades when my review of Caufield's book appears.

Edited February 20, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[David Andrews]

Anyways, back to the subject, here is Mike Paine in 1947 Horace Mann-Lincoln school.

His senior year photo and quote, an ROKC exclusive scan.

Anyone else sensing a Bates Motel - Anthony Perkins vibe?

I'm getting a "With the right dress and grooming and under controlled circumstances of public exposure could impersonate Lee Oswald" vibe.

Edited February 20, 2016 by David Andrews

[James DiEugenio]

Nice one.

"As Steve Jones and Carol Hewett have pointed out, the ARRB declassified an interesting FBI report about a man talking to certain college students at Luby's Restaurant near SMU in Dallas. The man would accost certain students, and then praise the Castro revolution to them, while protesting America's policies toward Cuba. The man claimed to know a communist, an ex-Marine who had recently returned to the USA with a Russian wife, clearly a reference to Oswald.. This event occurred in April of 1963.

Someone thought this a little unusual for Dallas at the time. So an FBI agent came down and started interviewing some of the students the man had talked to. After one student physically described the man, the agent pulled out a picture of Michael Paine. The student said Paine was the man." (James DIEugenio, Destiny Betrayed, p. 198)

This is a guy who is living off of trust funds from the Cabot and Forbes families at the time, and who had a security clearance from Bell Helicopter.

Edited February 20, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

PT: It's ridiculous [to isolate Marina from Lee] because there's no good reason for it. Why bother isolating her? What would be the point? It's just pulp-fiction.

Only if you buy into Caufield's pile of pickled baloney. (I am almost done with this horrendous book. Its the worst book on the JFK case since Ultimate Sacrifice.Trejo has the critical apparatus of a sixth grader. Or he is so bound up in his own ideology that it does not matter to him what an author says or how he builds his case.)

​Point Number One for the logical thinking world: (That is outside of Trejo and Caufield)

​Ruth succeeded in separating Marina from Lee by the time Oswald returned from New Orleans. (I leave out Mexico City since it is an open question as to if Oswald was in MC, and what he did there.) This is a fact. It is also a fact that Ruth began on this tangent many months earlier, like three weeks after she met Marina. And PT's silly pregnancy excuse is belied by looking at a calendar.

Point Number Two for the logical thinking world:

By separating out Marina from Lee at this time, the Paine garage became the main repository for much of the physical evidence that the authorities used to build their case against Oswald. This is a fact.

​Point Number Three for the Logical Thinking World:

Ruth Paine was instrumental in getting Oswald his job at the TSBD. In fact, she guaranteed he would be there on 11/22/63. How? By not relaying the message from employment agent Robert Adams to Oswald about a better paying job at Trans Texas Airport. (James DiEugenio, Destiny Betrayed, p. 163)

​Point Number Four for the Logical Thinking World:

For days, weeks, months after the assassination Ruth Paine's house continued to pour out more "evidence" that incriminated Oswald in the murder of Kennedy. It got so bad that the Secret Service actually returned some of it i.e. the Walker Note. They thought she wrote it. (ibid p. 203) And they also told Marina not to associate with Ruth anymore since the assassination would look too much like a CIA plot. (James Douglass, JFK and the Unspeakable, p. 173)

​Point Number Five for the Logical Thinking World:

As Carol Hewett demonstrated in her excellent and valuable essay, "The Paines' Participation in the Minox Camera Charade", the Paines colluded in a deception with the top level of the FBI, including Hoover, to separate the dead Oswald from his MInox Camera. There is no other way to characterize that act except as a purposeful attempt to manipulate and obfuscate the evidentiary record. (See The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, pgs. 238-48)

​I could go on and on. But the real question here is not so much in the record, since the above are all facts, but the real question is as to why PT is so violently opposed to them, like a medieval Crusader zealot. And also why he buys into Caufield's absolute bloated mess of a book. A volume that is so bad that it reminds me of the worst of Harry Livingstone.

A true point to ponder. And one which everyone will understand in spades when my review of Caufield's book appears.

Well, James, you just keep getting it wrong -- decade after decade.

While it's true that the CT of Jeffrey Caufield demolishes your CT, James, it won't do to simply call Jeff names for the TRUTH to go away. You claim to be a "Citizen for Truth about the Kennedy Assassination" (CTKA), but TRUTH isn't one of your objectives anymore, is it?

OK, let's look at your five points -- by the numbers -- for the logical thinking world:

(1) When LHO lost his job in early April 1963, he chose to move to New Orleans on April 23, 1963, and leave Marina and baby June behind in their Neeley apartment -- alone -- with only a bus ticket and $10 -- so that Marina would have to wait for a letter from LHO that he finally got a new job and a place to stay. (They didn't have a phone.) Then, when she got the letter, she was supposed to pack up all the rest of their things, and get herself and baby June on the Greyhound -- without speaking English -- and travel to New Orleans with baby June.

Marina was only three months pregnant then, but she was nervous about this. Ruth Paine's heart went out to Marina Oswald, and she told LHO that Marina could stay at her place for a couple of weeks, and that she had a telephone that LHO could call when he was ready, and that she herself would drive Marina to New Orleans when LHO was ready. LHO grabbed at the offer. He cashed in her bus ticket, kept half the money for himself and gave Marina half, and then loaded up Ruth's station wagon with Marina and baby June's things.

Marina had been complaining that LHO threatened to send her back to the USSR without him -- in other words -- abandon her. Ruth wasn't even sure if LHO was going to ever call her -- but Marina was pregnant, and that mattered to Ruth Paine, a feminist. Ruth would help Marina get on her feet, even if LHO failed to do so.

When Ruth went on her long summer vacation to visit her wealthy family and friends back East, they all wanted to talk about her separation from Michael, but Ruth wanted to talk about "saving Marina Oswald," from this irresponsible ne'er-do-well.

After her long vacation, Ruth stopped by New Orleans to visit the Oswalds on her way home. WHAT DID SHE FIND? She found that LHO was again out of a job. Also, Marina Oswald was now waddling pregnant -- it was late September, and she was eight months pregnant. Oswald was going to go "look for work" again -- and again Marina was terrified about what would become of her.

Why didn't LHO call his own family for help? The Dutz' lived right there in New Orleans. BUT HE DIDN'T. Ruth again, out of Quaker charity, offered to take Marina to have her baby at Parkland Hospital, where she knew Marina would get excellent health-care. Again, LHO grabbed at the chance.

THAT'S what really happened. You claim you want the TRUTH of the JFK saga, James -- well, there's the TRUTH.

(2) Ruth Paine was a very private person -- as most wealthy people are -- and she never pried into the possessions of other people. Ruth Paine allowed the Oswalds to keep their very little property inside her garage. Ruth Paine swore that she never saw LHO's rifle in her garage, or in Dallas, or in New Orleans or ANYWHERE. Ruth Paine moved LHO's property from New Orleans, and swears it wasn't ANYWHERE in it.

The first time that Ruth Paine saw that blanket in which Marina claimed the rifle was wrapped, was in early October, when LHO returned from Mexico City (and if you'd read the Lopez-Hardway Report, James, you'd never say it's an open question if LHO was ever in Mexico City, playing spy).

As for the Backyard Photographs, the only other "evidence" against LHO in her garage, Ruth Paine never saw those, either, but Marina Oswald had seen one (and only one) and she even admits taking that ONE AND ONLY ONE. This was made right before the time LHO was fired from Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, which had superb photographic equipment, where LHO had forged his fake Alek J. Hidel ID and other phony documents.

These are the REAL FACTS, James. And as a CTKA, you should know this.

(3) Ruth Paine was one of several people who helped LHO get his job at the TSBD. As for the "better paying job" at the Airport, the TEC called twice about it. The first time was when nobody was home, and LHO was interviewing with Roy Truly at the TSBD. The second time was the next day, when LHO was already at work. Ruth Paine just told the TEC, he already has a job, and hung up. She didn't even remember it -- the lazy guy finally had a job with which to take care of his own family. Ruth didn't agree to take care of LHO -- she only agreed to take care of Marina Oswald until January. LHO was coming over to Ruth's house and hanging out weekends, eating free, and sending his expensive Russian magazines to Ruth's address. LHO was taking advantage. RUTH DIDN'T OWE LHO SQUAT.

(4) The klutzy DPD did a pitiful job of searching the Paine house on the day of the JFK assassination. That's why they came over again the next day -- and even came over more times later.

As for the Walker Note, which was found in one of Marina's Russian books, the Secret Service did believe that Ruth Paine wrote it, but later they apologized to Ruth Paine when they learned that it was definitely in LHO's handwriting.

You continue to leave out the TRUTH of the matter, James, which odd for someone who claims to be a CTKA.

The Secret Service was happy to isolate Marina Oswald from the rest of the world, because they had botched the protection of POTUS. During the period of the Walker Note, they not only accused Ruth Paine of forging it, even shouting at her -- but they also frightened Marina Oswald with their shouting. Marina never forgot that.

Nobody accused Ruth Paine of any CIA plot except for Jim Garrison, and Jim Garrison worked hard to find something with which to indict Ruth Paine, and GARRISON FOUND NOTHING AT ALL. You keep leaving that TRUTH out of the picture.

(5) The Minox camera belonged to Michael Paine, but in the chaos of the MULTIPLE searches of the Paine's home, was confiscated by who knows which authority when. There was no effort to deceive or obfuscate -- it was simple confusion on the part of the DPD, FBI, Secret Service, because they had proved their incompetence by failing to protect JFK and LHO.

These are the FACTS of the case, James. This is the TRUTH of the matter. Logical thinking persons will see the TRUTH through the FACTS and will reject your CIA-did-it nonsense sooner or later.

Jeff Caufield's theory is BRILLIANT, and it seems clear to me, James, that you're just jealous.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 20, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Caufield's book demolishes nothing Paul. And I predict it will have an much influence on the critical community as Tom Hartmann's and Lamar Waldron's Ultimate Sacrifice did. Because it is that bad of a book. The word "brilliant" is about the last word I would apply to it.

Your critique of that book was a sham. It was not a critique at all. And the public will see this once I post my review. A 73 year old assassin right Paul? Did you point that one out? Was he in an elevated wheelchair behind the picket fence?

The rest of your post is simply obfuscation by verbiage, a la Bugliosi.

1. I dealt with the pregnancy issue over at the other thread where you tried to slide that one by also.

2. To imply as you do that there were only one or two things that Ruthie produced from her house to incriminate Oswald is so ridiculous that its risible. There was stuff coming out of her house at a steady stream until at least February. That is when she finally gave the Imperial Reflex Camera to Robert Oswald and this now finally was the excuse for the BYP and the Walker pic because the other cameras would not take the shots. In fact, I detail this in Destiny Betrayed for about five pages. And I still had to leave stuff out like that ridiculous calendar notation. (pgs. 202-08) She even furnished stuff about MC, since, at first, Marina said Oswald had never been there.

3. What you do with the Adams TEC episode is simply inexcusable. The best rendition of this is in the Douglass book. (pgs. 171-73) Let us use that, since yours is simply untrustworthy.

On 10/14, Ruthie calls the TSBD to get a job for LHO there. She tells LHO about this call.

On 10/15 LHO goes for an interview. On that day, Adams called the Paine residence with a better offer for a job. He spoke to someone about the position. Adams said that the person he talked to said LHO was not there. He told this person that LHO should call him directly.

On the morning of 10/16, Adams called again since Oswald had not returned his call. He was told that LHO was not there and had attained another position.

So it is simply not true that no one answered the phone on the 15th. Someone did, and it sure looks like this person did not give Oswald the message Adams left. If he or she had, then in all probability, LHO would have taken the other job and not been on the motorcade route on 11/22/63.

Ruthie was quite sensitive about this episode. She first said she recalled nothing, then she said she had a vague recollection of it and finally she said she heard about it from Oswald! Which is utter and complete malarkey. Adams would have never left his message to call back if he had talked to Oswald on the 15th. Consider this piece of fluff: she actually testified under oath that it was LHO who told her that the other job had been filled!

As any logical thinking person would render from all this, Adams concluded that "I do not know whether he was ever advised of this referral, but under the circumstances, I do not see how he could have been." You go that right Robert.

Remember this was Ruth's sworn testimony. From all indications, that oath meant little to her.

4. As per Jim Garrison ever accusing the Paines of being in on a CIA plot, I don't think he ever did that in public. But you are about as good on JG as you are on Vietnam. Which is NOT VERY.

I took that bit of info from the transcript of Marina's testimony before the Clay Shaw grand jury. Its in the Douglass book. Marina said she had no relationship with Ruth as of that time, 1968. When asked why, she said the Secret Service said Ruth was a CIA sympathizer. When asked to elaborate, she said the Secret Service said Ruth had friends with the Agency, and it would look bad to the public if a connection surfaced "between me and Ruth and CIA." She was then asked if she was left with the impression from Secret Service that Ruth was connected in some way with the Agency. Marina replied in the affirmative. (p. 173)

Recall, the SS also thought Ruth created the Walker note.

5. The particular Minox camera that the DPD took initially was, in all probability, Oswald's. This is why the FBI and Hoover went nuts when it was delivered to them. It was a spy camera. And it was right on the DPD inventory. They changed the inventory. And then Hoover told Bardwell Odum to get on this and straighten it out. And Ruth Paine was one of the referrals on the list.

Did he ever, and did the Paines help a lot. They concocted a scheme that now produced a second MInox--when they already had one. And they tried to reduce the first one to a light meter, and say the cops only found the second one and it was Mike's all along.

If this is the kind of thing you condone from the FBI, as you prostrate yourself before Ruthie, then you are beyond hope.

Edited February 20, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

[James DiEugenio]

Davey and Paul.

[Paul Trejo]

My responses to your five "logical thinking" points, James, were solid responses, and you failed to reply in kind. More of the same stand-up comedy.

While in the 1990's you could claim to be fighting for the TRUTH about the JFK murder, today you're just fighting for your status in the JFK CT community.

Your attacks on Ruth Paine are flimsy -- every single one of them -- just as Carol Hewett's attacks on Ruth Paine are all flimsy. There's ZERO substance to any of them, without exception.

By the way, David Von Pein posted a fairly recent 47 minute address of Ruth Paine to a local community group -- and it is vital to recognize that Ruth Paine has not changed her account of her experience with Marina and Lee Oswald for 53 years. Same story -- same details -- same everything.

You never deal with her actual story, James. You deal with Jim Garrison's suspicions flailing all about for years.

Nor do you deal with the fact that Jim Garrison -- for all his efforts -- failed to find one single thing with which to indict Ruth Paine, although he was hot to convict her. Jim Garrison eventually dropped all the points that you and CTKA continue to parrot -- that Ruth Paine was trying to "isolate" Marina Oswald from LHO for some Unexplained, Unexplainable reason.

Jim Garrison dropped the nonsense -- but you don't.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

The above is absolute nonsense in every respect.

I replied on point, or as close as one get on point with you. Since your are in love with the sound of your own voice, that is not easy.

And anyone can see that I did reply.

A flimsy case? Then why did you have to distort and foreshorten the cases of Robert Adams and the Minox camera? You didn't have the facts that is why. I exposed them.

Me reply to a DVP video? Please. He is your buddy on this one.

Again, why do you masquerade as an expert on Jim Garrison? You don't know jack about Garrison. So quit putting on airs like you do.

Because anyone who really does know that case knows what you say about him is mostly malarkey.

Edited February 21, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

CTers refuse to ever drop a silly, unsubstantiated argument. Just look at the "Hidell Money Order" topic for proof of that.

The bleed-thru has been explained in a non-sinister way. And there's a FRB stamp on the M.O.

Do these things sway any CTer? Nah. Not a chance. The M.O. is just as "suspicious" now to Jimbo & Company as it ever was. Same with the "Zone 12" on the envelope. Jimbo will just ignore the facts regarding that "12" too.

But....that's Jimmy.

Edited February 21, 2016 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Why are you trying to derail this thread?

Because I am decking Trejo on Ruthie and Mike?

I would ask that you remove that post since its irrelevant to this thread. If not I will ask the mods to intercede.

Its fine if you want to put that in the right thread. Please do.

[David G. Healy]

CTers refuse to ever drop a silly, unsubstantiated argument. Just look at the "Hidell Money Order" topic for proof of that.

The bleed-thru has been explained in a non-sinister way. And there's a FRB stamp on the M.O.

Do these things sway any CTer? Nah. Not a chance. The M.O. is just as "suspicious" now to Jimbo & Company as it ever was. Same with the "Zone 12" on the envelope. Jimbo will just ignore the facts regarding that "12" too.

But....that's Jimmy.

seems the only place you can gain any traction these past 2 years is right here on the Ed Forum. Accusing WCR critics of the very same thing you've tried to pull the past few years on the Amazon JFK threads.... By contrast on AMAZON you get your rear-end handed to you, regularly. Handed to you by critics that know case evidence better than you and the entire .john mcadams 'LHO did it all by his lonesome contingent.'

But.... that's Davey-poo.

Edited February 21, 2016 by David G. Healy

[David G. Healy]

My responses to your five "logical thinking" points, James, were solid responses, and you failed to reply in kind. More of the same stand-up comedy.

While in the 1990's you could claim to be fighting for the TRUTH about the JFK murder, today you're just fighting for your status in the JFK CT community.

Your attacks on Ruth Paine are flimsy -- every single one of them -- just as Carol Hewett's attacks on Ruth Paine are all flimsy. There's ZERO substance to any of them, without exception.

By the way, David Von Pein posted a fairly recent 47 minute address of Ruth Paine to a local community group -- and it is vital to recognize that Ruth Paine has not changed her account of her experience with Marina and Lee Oswald for 53 years. Same story -- same details -- same everything.

You never deal with her actual story, James. You deal with Jim Garrison's suspicions flailing all about for years.

Nor do you deal with the fact that Jim Garrison -- for all his efforts -- failed to find one single thing with which to indict Ruth Paine, although he was hot to convict her. Jim Garrison eventually dropped all the points that you and CTKA continue to parrot -- that Ruth Paine was trying to "isolate" Marina Oswald from LHO for some Unexplained, Unexplainable reason.

Jim Garrison dropped the nonsense -- but you don't.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

for good reason, Paul. Garrison could not indict her, so what? Does that mean she's not guilty of conspiring to entrap LHO? Who believes Ruth Paine about anything but you? Perhaps you'd serve Paine better by getting her on an open forum, face to face with 1964 WCR critics.

Ruth Paine giving a televised C-Span speech 9/13/2013 about her relationship with Marina Oswald? With the new media of today I could just imagine some of the no-holds barred questions she'd be confronted with. Why does she have a need to bouy up her relationship (after 50 years) with a woman that won't even talk to her... Is Paine pulling a closeted mea culpa or something? Selling tickets for the tour company that refurbished her old Dallas abode?

Pretty cheesy stuff, Paul. Smelly too!

[Paul Trejo]

For good reason, Paul. Garrison could not indict her, so what? Does that mean she's not guilty of conspiring to entrap LHO? Who believes Ruth Paine about anything but you? Perhaps you'd serve Paine better by getting her on an open forum, face to face with 1964 WCR critics.

Ruth Paine giving a televised C-Span speech 9/13/2013 about her relationship with Marina Oswald? With the new media of today I could just imagine some of the no-holds barred questions she'd be confronted with. Why does she have a need to bouy up her relationship (after 50 years) with a woman that won't even talk to her... Is Paine pulling a closeted mea culpa or something? Selling tickets for the tour company that refurbished her old Dallas abode?

Pretty cheesy stuff, Paul. Smelly too!

My point, David, is that Ruth Paine hasn't changed her story in 52 years.

Nobody has been able to poke any holes in her account of the LHO saga -- although Jim Garrison, Carol Hewett and James DiEugenio have tried FOR DECADES to pin something on her.

Utter failures.

Her mother-in-law had a childhood friend that was a lover of Allen Dulles during World War Two !!

PROOF! PROOF that Ruth Paine was a CIA Agent !!

Normal people are ashamed to use twisted logic like that.

The main difference between DVP and myself is that I'm still willing to recognize multiple shooters in the JFK assassination -- proving a conspiracy.

Yet the conspiracy that I see -- based on objective evidence of Jeff Caufield -- and not on the nonsense that Jim Garrison himself finally gave up -- is that rogues inside the Dallas Police Department, led by General Walker, a leader of the Radical Right in the South -- planned the Dealey Plaza scenario.

There was no CIA plot. There was no LBJ plot. The Mafia spent millions on con-men. A few traitors in a few key places here and there -- and General Walker got revenge on both JFK and LHO on one day. Walker most likely told the Houston Post, the Deutsche-Nationalzeitung, the National Enquirer, and several others, including this last mockery before he died:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19920119_EAW_Oswald_arrested.pdf

Yes -- there was a CT. No, it wasn't Ruth Paine. Geez.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 21, 2016 by Paul Trejo