The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[James DiEugenio]

Paul:

Give us all a break.

Ruth Paine herself in one of DVP's videos says that she was wiretapped.

The author of the story who tried to say it was not such, was one Hugh Aynesworth. Enough said. The guy is an FBI asset.

And so yeah, the FBI would not want anyone to know afterwards that they were tapping that phone. First you lay prostrate for the Paines, then you do the same for the FBI.

In addition to the questions posed above which you ignored--namely how did the Paines know in advance that the patsy would be Oswald, and how did Ruth know Oswald was at the murder scene when she though he worked elsewhere--the third question is, why did the FBI tap the Paines' residence? Which it sure looks like they did.

Edited February 24, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Sandy Larsen]

Paul,

You keep dismissing the idea (or fact, as I consider it) that the CIA was involved in the assassination.

How do you account for Richard Case Nagell? He shot at the ceiling of the bank and waited for police to arrive. He told them they would know soon why he did that. He got himself arrested for protection. He had on him a copy of Oswald's military ID card.

CTers who believe the CIA was involved quickly understand the Nagell situation... it makes sense. But it seems that for you it would make no sense at all. Nagell must have been close to Oswald (in order to have gotten the ID card), but beyond that he must have been crazy to have done what he did.

I'm curious to know your take on him.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Martin Blank]

Paul,

You keep dismissing the idea (or fact, as I consider it) that the CIA was involved in the assassination.

How do you account for Richard Case Nagell? He shot at the ceiling of the bank and waited for police to arrive. He told them they would know soon why he did that. He got himself arrested for protection. He had on him a copy of Oswald's military ID card.

CTers who believe the CIA was involved quickly understand the Nagell situation... it makes sense. But it seems that for you it would make no sense at all. Nagell must have been close to Oswald (in order to have gotten the ID card), but beyond that he must have been crazy to have done what he did.

I'm curious to know your take on him.

this should be priceless

[Jon G. Tidd]

My take on Nagell, based on what I've read, based on my education and training as an army intelligence officer, is that Nagell was a disturbed individual.

He behaved erratically.

Yes, he was persecuted. That's the way the system worked back then.

To argue he was a truth-teller is to maintain he told the truth.

What proof is there that he told the truth?

[Sandy Larsen]

Jon,

What are your sources for information on Nagell?

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

You keep dismissing the idea (or fact, as I consider it) that the CIA was involved in the assassination.

How do you account for Richard Case Nagell? He shot at the ceiling of the bank and waited for police to arrive. He told them they would know soon why he did that. He got himself arrested for protection. He had on him a copy of Oswald's military ID card.

CTers who believe the CIA was involved quickly understand the Nagell situation... it makes sense. But it seems that for you it would make no sense at all. Nagell must have been close to Oswald (in order to have gotten the ID card), but beyond that he must have been crazy to have done what he did.

I'm curious to know your take on him.

These are good questions, Sandy, and my current theory holds a subordinate place for the CIA involvement in the JFK murder; that is, I recognize CIA Rogues who left the reservation to join a Civilian Plot -- because they hated JFK that much.

I count David Morales and Howard Hunt as CIA Rogues, by necessity, since they confessed. Hunt confessed to a "sidelines" role. David Morales was much deeper -- for example, Bill Simpich believes he and his quislings were the ones who Impersonated LHO in Mexico City in early October 1963. I accept that as TRUE. (Tommy Graves also believes Morales was Neck Scratcher in a film of LHO on Canal Street in NOLA. I think that is a very real possibility.)

So, I do admit the a few CIA Rogues were involved. But you're asking specifically about Richard Case Nagell. I don't believe that Nagell was one of the Rogues -- but I do believe that Nagell KNEW who was involved. He's a special case. Here's my opinion.

(1) Richard Case Nagell was a double-agent. That means that he was more at risk than most CIA agents. He played a riskier game. IMHO, a double-agent could be shot by his own team just as easily as by the Other team. IMHO, a double-agent could barely find a single friend to trust, or who trusted him. His life was always on the line.

(2) I find it interesting that LHO was also a wanna-be double-agent. While Nagell was working for the CIA and drawing a handsome salary for his work, LHO was a pitifully poor wannabe who would work odd jobs for cash, or live on unemployment checks, or get chump change from the FBI for some information here or there, or get chump change from Clay Shaw to play ball with Guy Banister.

(2.1) I think of LHO as a mercenary -- but rare among mercenaries because he regarded himself as -- and behaved as -- a player on the order of Richard Case Nagell, namely, a double-agent.

(2.2) Like all double-agents, he would find few friends to trust, and few friends to trust him. Loran Hall, for example (IMHO) said of Lee Oswald, "You never know how to take him -- he could go either way." This was no way to make friends among the mercenaries, who were fighting for their nation back, and often in a life-or-death situation.

(3) Richard Case Nagell took an interest in LHO when he was there in NOLA. In NOLA, as Jim Garrison correctly pointed out (though much of what Garrision believed was mistaken) LHO was associated at 544 Camp Street with Guy Banister and his Radical Right operations.

(3.1) Guy Banister was associated at one point with Operation Mongoose -- and other plots to kill Fidel Castro.

(3.2) LHO, while working for Guy Banister as a double-agent, was allowing himself in NOLA to be sheep-dipped so that he looked to everybody in the Police Department, in the Newspapers, on Radio and even on TV -- to be a Secretary of the FPCC, that is, a friend of Fidel Castro.

(3.3) Richard Case Nagell took an interest in LHO for this very reason. Fidel Castro was a target -- and to keep his cover with the USSR, Richard Case Nagell had to tell the USSR what was happening with regard to plots against Fidel Castro.

(3.4) Richard Case Nagell couldn't tell which side LHO was on. This was amusing. Nagell evidently thought that LHO was really a Communist-sympathizer trying to infiltrate the Radical Right. So Nagel tried to warn LHO that his associates (e.g. Loran Hall, Larry Howard and others like them in Interpen and Lake Pontchartrain) were actually Faking LHO out and weren't fooled by his game. LHO just ignored Nagell, so Nagell worried about LHO, and what LHO was going to do next).

(3.5) Richard Case Nagell, IIRC, warned LHO that if he tried to sneak into Cuba through Mexico City, that Nagell would have to shoot LHO dead, just to preserve his reputation with the USSR.

(3.6) This did worry LHO, IMHO, and LHO cried one night that summer in his kitchen, according to Marina, because of the stress he was under. Also, LHO tried to think of other ways to get to Cuba for his "mission" for Guy Banister -- e.g. hijack an airplane.

(3.7) That is speculation, but what we know for certain (from the Lopez-Hardway Report) is that LHO entered Mexico City "as a passenger in a car," and he took with him a Fake Resume of Fake Credentials that he had built up with the help of Guy Banister and his crew there in NOLA. LHO went to Mexico City pretending to be an FPCC Secretary -- knowing that FPCC Secretaries get special treatment to enter Havana Cuba. Instead, LHO and his Fake Credentials were laughed out of the Cuban Consulate offices, as well as out of the USSR Embassy there in Mexico City.

(4.0) Be that as it may, Richard Case Nagell failed to kill LHO for going to Mexico City, but Nagell also figured something out that LHO never figured out, namely, that LHO was really being sheep-dipped to be used as a Patsy for a Right-Wing coup-de-etat.

(4.1) Richard Case Nagell also realized that any double-agent -- whether mercenaries like LHO, or even CIA double-agents -- were totally at risk of being made into the Patsy of this Right-Wing coup-de-etat.

(4.2) Therefore, Richard Case Nagell got himself arrested after he found out that LHO had successfully entered Mexico City with impunity.

(5.0) So, there you go, Sandy. I believe the Nagell story entirely -- it makes sense to me -- just as the participation of CIA Rogues like Morales and Hunt makes sense to me.

(5.1) As I say -- not every CIA Agent could be made into a Patsy -- but a double-agent was far more at risk than an ordinary CIA Agent.

(5.2) LHO was not in the CIA -- but he wanted to be with all his heart. LHO fooled himself that Guy Banister and his rag-tag band of mercenaries in NOLA were "really" in the CIA, and they may have led him on. Certainly Fred Crisman led Tom Beckham on. Surely David Ferrie was not above leading young men on. Guy Banister probably told LHO that if he was successful in his "mission" in getting to Cuba, that LHO would get a real job in the CIA. So, LHO would evidently do anything for Guy Banister -- even be a double-agent.

Thanks for the legitimate question, Sandy.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 24, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

Jon,

What are your sources for information on Nagell?

Sandy,

I wouldn't recognize Nagell if I tripped over him.

My comment is based on my experience and training as a U.S. Army counter-intelligence officer who served a year in Viet Nam.

I know military intelligence first-hand.

Nagell never would have been recruited by army M.I. He was too unreliable.

I know a tiny bit, just a tiny bit, about the CIA in Viet Nam. Just a tiny bit.

Let's just say Nagell had nothing to offer.

Nothing.

[Larry Hancock]

Jon, you do realize that we have Nagell's Army records and that he was recruited into Army military intelligence (CIC), served and was promoted in it don't you?

He served in field intelligence in Korea and in CIC in Japan...

[Sandy Larsen]

Paul,

You keep dismissing the idea (or fact, as I consider it) that the CIA was involved in the assassination.

How do you account for Richard Case Nagell? He shot at the ceiling of the bank and waited for police to arrive. He told them they would know soon why he did that. He got himself arrested for protection. He had on him a copy of Oswald's military ID card.

CTers who believe the CIA was involved quickly understand the Nagell situation... it makes sense. But it seems that for you it would make no sense at all. Nagell must have been close to Oswald (in order to have gotten the ID card), but beyond that he must have been crazy to have done what he did.

I'm curious to know your take on him.

These are good questions, Sandy, and my current theory holds a subordinate place for the CIA involvement in the JFK murder; that is, I recognize CIA Rogues who left the reservation to join a Civilian Plot -- because they hated JFK that much.

I count David Morales and Howard Hunt as CIA Rogues, by necessity, since they confessed. Hunt confessed to a "sidelines" role. David Morales was much deeper -- for example, Bill Simpich believes he and his quislings were the ones who Impersonated LHO in Mexico City in early October 1963. I accept that as TRUE. (Tommy Graves also believes Morales was Neck Scratcher in a film of LHO on Canal Street in NOLA. I think that is a very real possibility.)

So, I do admit the a few CIA Rogues were involved. But you're asking specifically about Richard Case Nagell. I don't believe that Nagell was one of the Rogues -- but I do believe that Nagell KNEW who was involved. He's a special case. Here's my opinion.

(1) Richard Case Nagell was a double-agent. That means that he was more at risk than most CIA agents. He played a riskier game. IMHO, a double-agent could be shot by his own team just as easily as by the Other team. IMHO, a double-agent could barely find a single friend to trust, or who trusted him. His life was always on the line.

(2) I find it interesting that LHO was also a wanna-be double-agent. While Nagell was working for the CIA and drawing a handsome salary for his work, LHO was a pitifully poor wannabe who would work odd jobs for cash, or live on unemployment checks, or get chump change from the FBI for some information here or there, or get chump change from Clay Shaw to play ball with Guy Banister.

(2.1) I think of LHO as a mercenary -- but rare among mercenaries because he regarded himself as -- and behaved as -- a player on the order of Richard Case Nagell, namely, a double-agent.

(2.2) Like all double-agents, he would find few friends to trust, and few friends to trust him. Loran Hall, for example (IMHO) said of Lee Oswald, "You never know how to take him -- he could go either way." This was no way to make friends among the mercenaries, who were fighting for their nation back, and often in a life-or-death situation.

(3) Richard Case Nagell took an interest in LHO when he was there in NOLA. In NOLA, as Jim Garrison correctly pointed out (though much of what Garrision believed was mistaken) LHO was associated at 544 Camp Street with Guy Banister and his Radical Right operations.

(3.1) Guy Banister was associated at one point with Operation Mongoose -- and other plots to kill Fidel Castro.

(3.2) LHO, while working for Guy Banister as a double-agent, was allowing himself in NOLA to be sheep-dipped so that he looked to everybody in the Police Department, in the Newspapers, on Radio and even on TV -- to be a Secretary of the FPCC, that is, a friend of Fidel Castro.

(3.3) Richard Case Nagell took an interest in LHO for this very reason. Fidel Castro was a target -- and to keep his cover with the USSR, Richard Case Nagell had to tell the USSR what was happening with regard to plots against Fidel Castro.

(3.4) Richard Case Nagell couldn't tell which side LHO was on. This was amusing. Nagell evidently thought that LHO was really a Communist-sympathizer trying to infiltrate the Radical Right. So Nagel tried to warn LHO that his associates (e.g. Loran Hall, Larry Howard and others like them in Interpen and Lake Pontchartrain) were actually Faking LHO out and weren't fooled by his game. LHO just ignored Nagell, so Nagell worried about LHO, and what LHO was going to do next).

(3.5) Richard Case Nagell, IIRC, warned LHO that if he tried to sneak into Cuba through Mexico City, that Nagell would have to shoot LHO dead, just to preserve his reputation with the USSR.

(3.6) This did worry LHO, IMHO, and LHO cried one night that summer in his kitchen, according to Marina, because of the stress he was under. Also, LHO tried to think of other ways to get to Cuba for his "mission" for Guy Banister -- e.g. hijack an airplane.

(3.7) That is speculation, but what we know for certain (from the Lopez-Hardway Report) is that LHO entered Mexico City "as a passenger in a car," and he took with him a Fake Resume of Fake Credentials that he had built up with the help of Guy Banister and his crew there in NOLA. LHO went to Mexico City pretending to be an FPCC Secretary -- knowing that FPCC Secretaries get special treatment to enter Havana Cuba. Instead, LHO and his Fake Credentials were laughed out of the Cuban Consulate offices, as well as out of the USSR Embassy there in Mexico City.

(4.0) Be that as it may, Richard Case Nagell failed to kill LHO for going to Mexico City, but Nagell also figured something out that LHO never figured out, namely, that LHO was really being sheep-dipped to be used as a Patsy for a Right-Wing coup-de-etat.

(4.1) Richard Case Nagell also realized that any double-agent -- whether mercenaries like LHO, or even CIA double-agents -- were totally at risk of being made into the Patsy of this Right-Wing coup-de-etat.

(4.2) Therefore, Richard Case Nagell got himself arrested after he found out that LHO had successfully entered Mexico City with impunity.

(5.0) So, there you go, Sandy. I believe the Nagell story entirely -- it makes sense to me -- just as the participation of CIA Rogues like Morales and Hunt makes sense to me.

(5.1) As I say -- not every CIA Agent could be made into a Patsy -- but a double-agent was far more at risk than an ordinary CIA Agent.

(5.2) LHO was not in the CIA -- but he wanted to be with all his heart. LHO fooled himself that Guy Banister and his rag-tag band of mercenaries in NOLA were "really" in the CIA, and they may have led him on. Certainly Fred Crisman led Tom Beckham on. Surely David Ferrie was not above leading young men on. Guy Banister probably told LHO that if he was successful in his "mission" in getting to Cuba, that LHO would get a real job in the CIA. So, LHO would evidently do anything for Guy Banister -- even be a double-agent.

Thanks for the legitimate question, Sandy.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Thanks for your thorough explanation, Paul. I must say I found every word you said fascinating... and eye-opening. I had no idea that you accepted the idea that CIA rogues could have been involved. I suppose because I've only seen you discussing Ruth Paine since I joined the forum. I admit that I expected your assessment of Nagell to be more inline with Jon Tidd's.

Thanks again for spending the time explaining that.

[Sandy Larsen]

Jon,

What are your sources for information on Nagell?

Sandy,

I wouldn't recognize Nagell if I tripped over him.

My comment is based on my experience and training as a U.S. Army counter-intelligence officer who served a year in Viet Nam.

I know military intelligence first-hand.

Nagell never would have been recruited by army M.I. He was too unreliable.

I know a tiny bit, just a tiny bit, about the CIA in Viet Nam. Just a tiny bit.

Let's just say Nagell had nothing to offer.

Nothing.

But you've made specific claims about him. That he was disturbed and behaved erratically. You must have a source or two, otherwise you couldn't possibly know those things.

The reason I asked is because I read an article about Nagell earlier today, written by a Dave Reitzes. In the article he is painted with much the same brush as yours, but in greater detail. The integrity of the article is suspect, though, as it is hosted on John McAdam's site.

[James DiEugenio]

JIm Garrison said that Nagell was "the most important witness there was".

For starters, at the time of his arrest, in September of 1963, he had an almost exact copy of Oswald's Uniformed Services Identification and Privleges Card, that is with the picture and signature of Oswald on it. Recall, this is two months before the assassination.

When Oswald was taken into custody and his belongings confiscated, his version of the card had an overstamp on it, which said October 1963, also, the photos are a bit different. DIck Russell thinks Oswald himself fabricated the other card. So Nagell had to have been pretty close to Oswald.

When Nagell was arrested outside the El Paso bank, he was waiting in his car for the police.In the trunk of his car was an American tourist card in the name of Aleksei Hidell.

To the arresting officer, Jim Bundren, Nagell said the following:

Nagell: Well, I'm glad you caught me. I really don't want to be in Dallas.

Bundren: What do you mean by that?

Nagell: You'll see soon enough.

Garrison was right. It doesn't get much better than that.

Edited February 26, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

My review of the (much better) second edition of The Man Who Knew too Much

http://www.ctka.net/2009/russell_review_2.html

A bit more complete and reliable than Reitzes.

[Jon G. Tidd]

When Nagell entered the bank in El Paso, he was not an active duty army officer. He had left the army in the wake of a head injury.

There is no proof he was in the employ of the CIA. Maybe he was. Maybe he wasn't.

Nagell had been injured in the head. He knew about military intelligence operations.

So, based on these facts, how does anyone here come to the conclusion Nagell was reliable and therefore had access to secret information?

I want to know. I want to know because if I'm some intelligence service's case officer in early 1963, I want to know if I should recruit him for some purpose.

Everyone here knows all about intelligence operations, I know. So please respond, based on your training and experience as a military intelligence officer in a war zone.

[James DiEugenio]

Jon:

Did you read what I wrote?

Did you read my review?

How did he have that stuff, how did he know what was going to happen in advance?

He also had a tape of Sergio Arcacha Smith and Carlos Quiroga talking about Oswald.

Geez.

[Martin Blank]

There is no proof he was in the employ of the CIA. Maybe he was. Maybe he wasn't.

i'll bow to allen dulles on this matter

Allen Dulles: This is a hard theory to disprove, you know. How do you disprove a fellow was not your agent? How do you disprove it?

Hale Boggs: You could disprove it, couldn't you?

Allen Dulles: No...I never knew how to disprove it.