The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[Martin Blank]

Facts are paramount.

To all here: What are the verifiable facts?

i think they are non-trejo-isms. a trejo-ism by definition has no facts of any kind involved. they are mere speculation with no factual support

[Martin Blank]

Paul,

Here's the point of my question:

When was JFK first struck? From where? By what?

I'll leave it at that.

The debate here is based mostly on opinions, not facts. Let's have verifiable facts.

Well, Jon, I think I presented some interesting and verifiable facts about the JFK assassination.

Yet you're asking about facts WHICH HAVE NEVER BEEN VERIFIED.

We even have a MOVIE of the JFK murder -- and yet we still can't answer in any VERIFIABLE way: "When was JFK first struck; From where? By what?"

We have a thousand guesses. The umbrella of "Umbrella man" was a dart-thrower! Yes, even that is one of the guesses.

But we have a major obstacle -- the decision by Hoover and LBJ on 11/22/1963 to insist upon a Single Lone Nut who killed JFK, and their willingness to use the entire US Government to twist all evidence -- eye-witnesses, photographs, film, ballistics, medical, X-ray, crime scene, fingerprints, palm prints -- to make an Unbelievable Case that a single madman killed JFK with the precision of a coordinated Military Ambush.

Because of the twisting of Evidence -- ostensibly for National Security during the Cold War (e.g. the USSR must not be allowed to crow about our shame) -- how in the world can we VERIFY today -- a half-century later -- that which those closest to the events had failed to verify back then?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

fact: a thing that is indisputably the case

​so there is no such thing as an unverified fact since by definition a fact has been verified by actual real evidence and not mere speculation like your entire last two paragraphs

[James DiEugenio]

Facts are paramount.

To all here: What are the verifiable facts?

i think they are non-trejo-isms. a trejo-ism by definition has no facts of any kind involved. they are mere speculation with no factual support

LOL

[James DiEugenio]

To JIm Di....

John Armstrong has asked me to announce that he is working on the following article....

Ruth Paine... co-conspirator to kill JFK....

Uh oh. This should be interesting.

[Sandy Larsen]

The “Dearborn” witnesses are similar to the “Second Casket Arrival” witnesses at Bethesda. Just as the Bethesda witnesses could not possibly have seen a “JFK casket” enter the morgue TWICE on 11/22/63 (so any “shipping casket” that was observed that night by anyone at Bethesda Naval Hospital obviously had to have contained a body OTHER than John F. Kennedy’s)….the Dearborn witnesses might have seen some vehicle resembling JFK’s limo, but it was certainly NOT SS-100-X.

[Also see: "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 300-301 of the endnotes.]

David Von Pein

May 2014

David,

I don't know much about several of the topics you and Jim spar over, but I've studied the casket-arrival-at-Bethesda thing fairly thoroughly.

There were not two casket entries... there were three. It's easy to prove this because a different group of guys carried the casket for each arrival.

But there were only two caskets.

[David Von Pein]

Via "Reclaiming History" (Bugliosi)(Endnotes Section).......

"The specific color of the casket: In Case Closed, Gerald Posner writes that “technicians
Paul O’Connor and Jerrol Custer” said “the president’s body was . . . in a
simple gray metal coffin and . . . he was zippered inside a military body bag.” Posner
does not cite any source for this, and Custer, as indicated, was never interviewed
by the HSCA and did not tell Lifton this.*

*Custer told an interviewer, circa 1998–2000, that he saw two caskets in the morgue. “One was a regular
shipping casket, one was a ceremonial casket.” Conspiracy theorist William Law then asks, “But you did see
a cheap shipping casket?” and Custer replied, “Yes.” (Law with Eaglesham, In the Eye of History, p.111)

Posner goes on to say that O’Connor and Custer may have been confused about the simple gray

casket and body bag because “James Jenkins, a laboratory technician, said that a plain gray
coffin, containing the body of an Air Force Officer in a body bag, arrived at
Bethesda before JFK’s coffin.” Posner doesn’t quote Jenkins as having told him
this, and he doesn’t cite any other source or document. (Posner, Case Closed, p.301
footnote)

In the HSCA’s interview of him in 1978, Jenkins said he was present in
the morgue for several hours before the president’s body was brought in, and his
duty during this time “included admitting a body into the morgue and the discharge
of the body” (JFK Document 009526, HSCA interview of James Jenkins
on June 27, 1978, p.1).

In a 1977 HSCA interview, Jenkins had said that after the
president’s autopsy, “an Air Force colonel and a child were autopsied that night”
(HSCA Record 180-10105-10166, August 29, 1977, p.3). But, as Posner writes, the
colonel’s body may have arrived at Bethesda before the president’s body did."

-- Vince Bugliosi; Pages 615-616 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History" (2007)

Edited March 1, 2016 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

I debated the two-coffin three-entry thing with an LNer when it was fresh in my mind. The LNer is a very intelligent friend of mine. But he just couldn't win the argument. It's a slam-dunk case. The only question I couldn't answer in our debate was when and how the President's body was moved to the cheap casket. But that didn't, and still doesn't, matter to me because the fact that body ended up in the wrong coffin proves that the body was indeed moved.

I'm not really interested in debating this topic. I'm still burned out from my first debate, which went on for weeks. It's off topic anyway.

EDIT: I just remember one other thing I couldn't answer, and that is whether the body was transported to the hospital in the decoy ambulance (which definitely existed) or by helicopter. Due to timing problems, I think it must have been by helicopter. But there is only a single bit of evidence I could find that indicates a helicopter was used.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Ray Mitcham]

Posted here as well as on another topic.

[Sandy Larsen]

Posted here as well as on another topic.

Thanks Ray,

Yeah, that is consistent with what has been established.

There had been some sort of surgery performed on JFK's head before the autopsy began. Lifton thought that it was done to make it look like the bullets came from behind. The orderly in your ARRB report apparently thought it was to obscure certain bullet holes.

From the description of the wounds by Parkland vs Bethesda doctors, I thought the surgeon also must have made the wound MUCH larger. And also removed the brain, and either put it back in or inserted a different brain. (For what reason I don't know.) Because during the autopsy the brain virtually fell out on its own, something that just doesn't happen because so many things (like the brain stem) need cutting before the brain will come out.

[Paul Trejo]

To JIm Di....

John Armstrong has asked me to announce that he is working on the following article....

Ruth Paine... co-conspirator to kill JFK....

Um, let me guess, Jim. Since John Armstrong was also a member of Probe magazine back in the 1990's, then, like James DiEugenio, John Armstrong will also base his new article attacking Ruth Paine on the Probe articles of Carol Hewett and her followers.

Yet those articles comprise some of the weakest argumentation I've ever heard from an attorney in my life.

Well -- let's give John Armstrong the benefit of the doubt -- maybe he's actually done some independent research. I'm looking forward to picking his article apart.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 1, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

I debated the two-coffin three-entry thing with an LNer when it was fresh in my mind. The LNer is a very intelligent friend of mine. But he just couldn't win the argument. It's a slam-dunk case. The only question I couldn't answer in our debate was when and how the President's body was moved to the cheap casket. But that didn't, and still doesn't, matter to me because the fact that body ended up in the wrong coffin proves that the body was indeed moved.

I'm not really interested in debating this topic. I'm still burned out from my first debate, which went on for weeks. It's off topic anyway.

EDIT: I just remember one other thing I couldn't answer, and that is whether the body was transported to the hospital in the decoy ambulance (which definitely existed) or by helicopter. Due to timing problems, I think it must have been by helicopter. But there is only a single bit of evidence I could find that indicates a helicopter was used.

Well, Sandy, it's not entirely off-topic, because it speaks to the irrational paranoia that the CIA killed JFK -- and that Ruth Paine was involved.

BTW, I agree with your take on the double-casket theory, and that JFK's body was moved. Yet this wasn't a CIA plot -- it was orchestrated by J. Edgar Hoover along with LBJ -- they had agreed only hours earlier that for purposes of National Security there must be no reporting -- or evidence -- of a Conspiracy in the JFK assassination. Therefore, LHO must be developed as a "Lone Nut" (involving a massive tampering with all evidence in the case).

Yet as David Lifton brilliantly exposed in his book, Best Evidence (1980), the best (verifiable) evidence of Conspiracy in the murder of JFK is the autopsy evidence. It was crucial, then, in order to enforce the "Lone Nut" mandate for National Security, that the Bethesda autopsy be controlled to indicate only one shooter, from behind, and only one bullet hitting JFK's head.

Yet the clear evidence, even before the autopsy, showed medical staff that there had been at least TWO bullets hitting JFK's brain -- one was a full-metal jacket (FMJ) bullet, and the other was a Frangible bullet that exploded on impact. There was evidence of both kinds of bullets, two entry points, and thousands of shards of an explosive bullet throughout the brain.

Therefore, they must never show the photographs or X-rays of the President's autopsy -- only hand-drawn pictures. The X-rays must be "lost" and even the President's brain must go "missing." This is because these give incontrovertible evidence of multiple bullets and multiple shooters -- a Conspiracy.

The Bethesda technicians reported that when they received JFK's body, the skull was entirely empty. There was a pre-autopsy operation -- and the Pentagon was part of that operation -- for National Security purposes. David Lifton showed this decades ago.

The CIA didn't kill JFK -- rogues and volunteers within the Radical Right did -- some were in the DPD -- and some were in local field offices of the FBI and Secret Service. It was a Dallas murder. It was a Dallas plot. (The NOLA arm was mainly concerned with sheep-dipping the Patsy for the previous six months. If any showed up to witness the fireworks on 11/22/1963 in Dallas, it was largely as spectators).

That's what the evidence will show. Ruth Paine was clueless.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 1, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Ray Mitcham]

“….even though Admiral Burkley and General Clifton insist on ambulance transport of JFK’s body to Bethesda, Gerald Behn at the White House subsequently orders Roy Kellerman:”You accompany the body aboard the helicopter” Finally, General Clifton insist and then repeats, in great detail, orders for a fork lift and platform at the left rear of the aircraft for the casket, a personnel ramp at the left front of the aircraft for President Johnson and other passengers debarkation, and another personnel ramp at the right front of the air plane (the dark, unlit side of the aircraft, where there is a galley door) for the departure of jacqueline Kennedy…..”

[snip]

“An air force document titled “Historical Highlights of Andrews Air Force Base, 1942/1989’ states that “the body of the slain President was removed to Walter Reed General Hospital…”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=43604&relPageId=5

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo,

You have talked with Ruth Paine recently? Today is February 22, 2016.

Paul, may I ask Ruth three questions.

The questions are:

1. Did Ruth take the pictures of June in New Orleans?

End of questions.

Good question, Jon. I'll send Ruth Paine an email right away. I'll let you know the result on this FORUM.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Jon,

Ruth Paine responded to your question on Thu 25 Feb 2016 at 4:24 PM. She wrote:

Hi. I took no photos of Marina in New Orleans.

Paz. Ruth

My question to her implied both Marina and June, and I take it that her reply also implied both Marina and June.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 1, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

To JIm Di....

John Armstrong has asked me to announce that he is working on the following article....

Ruth Paine... co-conspirator to kill JFK....

Um, let me guess, Jim. Since John Armstrong was also a member of Probe magazine back in the 1990's, like James DiEugenio, John Armstrong will base his new article attacking Ruth Paine on the Probe articles of Carol Hewett and her followers.

That is some of the weakest argumentation I have ever heard from an attorney in my life.

Well -- let's give John Armstrong the benefit of the doubt -- maybe he's actually done some independent research. I'm looking forward to picking his article apart.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

I'm looking forward to seeing how John gives credit to Ruth (and not Linnie Mae Randle) for suggesting Oswald apply for a job at the TSBD.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

“….even though Admiral Burkley and General Clifton insist on ambulance transport of JFK’s body to Bethesda, Gerald Behn at the White House subsequently orders Roy Kellerman:”You accompany the body aboard the helicopter” Finally, General Clifton insist and then repeats, in great detail, orders for a fork lift and platform at the left rear of the aircraft for the casket, a personnel ramp at the left front of the aircraft for President Johnson and other passengers debarkation, and another personnel ramp at the right front of the air plane (the dark, unlit side of the aircraft, where there is a galley door) for the departure of jacqueline Kennedy…..”

[snip]

“An air force document titled “Historical Highlights of Andrews Air Force Base, 1942/1989’ states that “the body of the slain President was removed to Walter Reed General Hospital…”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=43604&relPageId=5

Good stuff, Ray.

Though I don't see how there was enough time for the body to go to Walter Reed and be back at Bethesda in time for the autopsy. Also, there's the orderly who saw pre-autopsy surgery at Bethesda.