The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[Paul Trejo]

Paul T - Kill team? Where does Jim say that?

You, too, Paul B?

Get real, man. James DiEugenio has since the beginning of his career blamed the FBI and their Director for a major role in the JFK murder. Are you now joining David Healey and pretending you didn't know?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 2, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

To Brancato and Dave H:

If you go back and read the first post I made here, you will see that I deliberately started this thread so I would not have to post on the previous one started by PT. And I explained my reasons for this there--because IMO, PT does not know how to handle evidence and/or facts.

The statement he makes above about me and the FBI now shows that not only does he not know how to measure evidence in the case, but now he wants to completely distort what I have written about this case and my view of it.

I have never said or even implied that the FBI, or Hoover was in on the plot. There is no doubt in my mind they were in on the cover up. And one of the worst parts of Bugliosi's inflated book is where he tries to deny this. And I deliberately chose to write a chapter in Reclaiming Parkland showing he was wrong.

But to give you just one example, I am of the school that one of the key points in the conspiracy is Mexico City. I tend to believe that Oswald likely did not go to Mexico. If he did, he did not do any of the things the WC and CIA said he did.

About six weeks after the assassination, Hoover wrote on the marginalia of a memo, words to the effect: OK, but I cannot forget how the CIA snowed us on Oswald in Mexico City.

If you ever needed any further evidence that Hoover was not in on the plot, that should be it. In fact, as many writers have said, the JFK case was the real beginning of the split between the CIA and FBI. Not just on Oswald in MC, but also with Nosenko. The FBI said Nosenko was a genuine defector. Angleton said he was not. The FBI was right, as I also think this was part of CIA camouflage about the JFK case. If Hoover had been in on it, he would not have disagreed.

So, no, I do not think, and never have thought, that Hoover and the FBI was in on the plot. In fact, this is one of the biggest gripes I have against that pile of baloney the Torbitt Document. They say that the plot was carried out by Division Five of the FBI--with about six other agencies. All except the CIA.

This is one more example of PT's distorting lens.

Edited January 2, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

...I have never said or even implied that the FBI, or Hoover was in on the plot. There is no doubt in my mind they were in on the cover up...

But here is the key, James. Do you say that the FBI and Hoover supported the Cover-up in order to protect, defend and aid the JFK Killers, or not?

Everything depends on the way you answer this question.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 2, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Let us recap:

I have shown here at least four rather fascinating instances in which the Paines, especially Ruth, have been shown to be in rather compromising positions in relation to Lee Harvey Oswald, both before and after the assassination. I list them below with a result after; whether or not these results were deliberate, I do not really know, but they did happen.

1. The camouflage of Oswald's Minox camera

Result: altering evidence to discount Oswald's intel ties

2. The failure to relay the Adams call

Result: Oswald takes the job at the TSBD, putting him on the motorcade route

3. The hogwash about the garage light being left on by Oswald the night before the assassination

Result: implying Oswald had picked up and wrapped the MC rifle the night before in order to kill Kennedy

4. The Buddy Walters/Luby's incident.

Result: Clearly indicating the Paines were involved in monitoring left leaning students and Castro sympathizers in Dallas

Now, I have also adduced plentiful evidence to demonstrate that the Paines are not what they appear to be, at least before the Warren Commission. That they were directly related to extremely well off people who worked with and for the CIA in various overthrow attempts of foreign governments. That Mike Paine was on at least two trust funds at the time owing to those relatives. And that Ruth's father and sister were directly related to the CIA--something that Ruth refused to admit to under oath at the Clay Shaw grand jury, even though she was asked the direct question.

Let us now turn to another camera related issue which emanates from that curious collection of evidence that so conveniently appeared from Mrs. Paine's garage.

Edited January 2, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

Let us recap:

I have shown here at least four rather fascinating instances in which the Paines, especially Ruth, have been shown to be in rather compromising positions in relation to Lee Harvey Oswald, both before and after the assassination. I list them below with a result after, whether or not these results were deliberate, I do not really know, but they did happen.

1. The camouflage of Oswald's Minox camera

Result: altering evidence to discount Oswald's intel ties

2. The failure to relay the Adams call

Result: Oswald takes the job at the TSBD, putting him on the motorcade route

3. The hogwash about the garage light being left on by Oswald the night before the assassination

Result: implying Oswald had picked up and wrapped the MC rifle the night before in order to kill Kennedy

4. The Buddy Walters/Luby's incident.

Result: Clearly indicating the Paines were involved in monitoring left leaning students and Castro sympathizers in Dallas

Now, I have also adduced plentiful evidence to demonstrate that the Paines are not what they appear to be, at least before the Warren Commission. That they were directly related to extremely well off people who worked with and for the CIA in various overthrow attempts of foreign governments. And that Ruth's father and sister were directly related to the CIA--something that Ruth refused to admit to under oath at the Clay Shaw grand jury, even though she was asked the direct question.

Let us now turn to another camera related issue which emanates from that curious collection of evidence that so conveniently appeared from Mrs. Paine's garage.

James, you've failed to respond to a simple question -- did the FBI in the JFK Cover-up act to protect, defend and aid the JFK Killers?

Simple question. Just answer it.

Furthermore, you've now stated as a FACT the sorely disputed claims by Buddy Walthers (4) of finding in Ruth Paine's garage "six or seven metal filing cabinets full of names of Cuban sympathizers". These were never inventoried, never photographed, nobody else ever saw them, and they never appear anywhere in the DPD records, except as a rumor started by Buddy Walthers.

Yet you're speaking about the existence of the metal filing cabinets as a FACT.

As for the Luby's incident, all that proves is that Michael Paine liked playing with the minds of college students -- challenging them to defend their political views about Communism and Freedom. It proves nothing more than that.

Also, about the Adams call (2), Adams called too late. By his first call on 10/15/1963, LHO was already interviewing at the TSBD. By his second phone call on 10/16/1963 LHO was already working at the TSBD. You deliberately omit the dates to make your point.

You're playing fast and loose with logic, James.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 3, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

As everyone knows, the infamous BYP and the pic of Walkers' house were allegedly found on Saturday, the 23rd, the second day of the search at the Paine home.

Now, as most of us know, there were cameras found at the garage. But as some of us do not know, the Imperial Reflex camera was not one of them. And this is the camera that the WC and FBI will say was used to take the incriminating photos listed above.

The cameras the DPD found were 1.) an American Stereo Realist, 2.) a Russian Cuera, and 3.) the Minox--which Hoover was so desperate to make disappear.

That was it. There was no Imperial Reflex camera listed on the DPD initial property report.

As I wrote in Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, this created a serious evidentiary problem: "All three cameras produced pictures equivalent to 35 mm photos. Yet the photos in evidence were developed on 620 roll film."

[Jon G. Tidd]

Jim Di,

You write about Oswald's intel ties. I assume you mean Marina's husband's intel ties, just to satisfy the H&L crowd here and eliminate any ambiguity.

Question: If you could get one question answered about these ties through a FOIA request, what would that question be?

[Paul Trejo]

As everyone knows, the infamous BYP and the pic of Walkers' house were allegedly found on Saturday, the 23rd, the second day of the search at the Paine home.

Now, as most of us know, there were cameras found at the garage. But as some of us do not know, the Imperial Reflex camera was not one of them. And this is the camera that the WC and FBI will say was used to take the incriminating photos listed above.

The cameras the DPD found were 1.) an American Stereo Realist, 2.) a Russian Cuera, and 3.) the Minox--which Hoover was so desperate to make disappear.

That was it. There was no Imperial Reflex camera listed on the DPD initial property report.

As I wrote in Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, this created a serious evidentiary problem: "All three cameras produced pictures equivalent to 35 mm photos. Yet the photos in evidence were developed on 620 roll film."

But you omit two vital points, James:

(1) The Imperial Reflex camera was found in a SUBSEQUENT search of Ruth Paine's home; and

(2) The DPD was truly incompetent in its handling of the JFK protection, the LHO protection, and the JFK and LHO searches and evidence.

These two facts undermine your conclusions about the cameras.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 2, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Jon:

I am leaving the whole H and L debate out of this.

I am talking about the guy Jack Ruby killed in Dallas.

As per a FOIA request, I don't think that would work. Because as John Newman has noted, and Angleton's biographer Tom Mangold also had written, James Angleton had a filing system that was independent of the CIA's central and grouped system. (This is how much power and independence Dulles and Helms granted this fruitcake.)

I believe, and I have advanced evidence owing mostly to Newman, that Oswald's ultimate control agent was Angleton. (Destiny Betrayed pgs, 137-44)

In my view, since Helms made Angleton handler of the Oswald case with the WC, those files are gone. Just as I think that, since Phillips was directly involved with Oswald in the anti FPCC campaign, those would be gone after the assassination.

But what we do have, which I tried to summarize in this seven pages is pretty convincing. And that does not include his activities in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 with Ferrie, Shaw and Banister. Or the fact that the KGB bugged his apartment since they also suspected he was an agent.

[James DiEugenio]

Now, to get back to the mystery of the Imperial Reflex which was not there.

Since the film used in the three confiscated cameras did not match the incriminating photos, this left a problem when the Imperial Reflex did finally surface ( a point we will get to later.)

Namely: How did a small platoon of police, searching the Paine home for two days, miss it?

Especially since, as shown above, they did take into evidence, not one, not two, but three other cameras!

And to make that even more puzzling, one of these was the miniature Minox. So, how could they see this cigarette box pygmy, but miss the much larger Imperial Reflex?

Edited January 2, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Hoover and the FBI understood this problem. So did the police.

So four DPD officers were interviewed by the Bureau--Adamcik, Stovall, Rose, Moore.

They all told the Bureau that they had never seen the Imperial Reflex during their search of the Paine residence. If they had, they would have seized it as they did the others.

Hmm. Was the Imperial Reflex camera there then? If it was not, then did someone else take the BYP's or the shot of Walker's house? There had to be an out somewhere.

There was. His name was John McCabe. McCabe was not with DPD. He was with the Irving Police Department, which had jurisdiction since the Paine home was in Irving. It was this department that Ruth Paine worked with to supply more evidence after the initial search e.g. the so-called Walker note.

Now, listen carefully to this story.

McCabe did say he saw the Imperial Reflex in a box. But for some reason he did not tell the other investigating officers about this discovery.

He added that he did not consider it to be important.

Hmm, with all those photos and all those other cameras, including a Minox, somehow this one was not important. McCabe must have realized this was kind of weak, so he did add that the camera looked too old and rickety to him.

The FBI now re-interviewed the DPD officers. They said that they went through all the boxes also. Including the one McCabe said he saw. They never saw that camera. And as Jeff Carter notes in his fine essay on the subject, it appears that the DPD did search the box McCabe is talking about. They inventoried it also.

In that inventory, there is no camera attributed to that box.

(If you have not read Jeff Carter's multi part essay on this subject, you should: (http://www.ctka.net/2015/JeffCarterBYP1-3.html)

Edited January 2, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Now, how did the Imperial Reflex enter the record?

From Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition (p. 203)

"On December 8th, two weeks after the Paine household search was concluded, with three cameras already in evidence, Robert Oswald picked up a box of Oswald's articles at Ruth Paine's house. Inside that box was the Imperial Reflex camera, which did use 620 roll film......

Robert kept the camera for over two months. On February 24th he turned it over to the FBI.

On February 1, Marina said the Cuera and the Stereo Realist appeared to be Oswald's two cameras. Then on February 25, when shown the newly retrieved Imperial Reflex, she now said it was Oswald's. In the interval between the February 1 and February 19 FBI interviews, Marina had temporarily lived with Robert Oswald, who had the Imperial Reflex at that time. On August 12th, the Stereo Realist camera was finally given to Ruth Paine, who said it was hers. Apparently she never looked for it in that entire six month span."

Pretty slick huh?

[James DiEugenio]

As Jeff shows in his essay, there was a report (very much buried) that a woman in a station wagon drove Marina and Lee, and their belongings, to the Neely Street apartment to move in.

This, of course, is where the BYPs supposedly were taken. George DeMohrenschildt also visited the couple there. Jeff also makes a circumstantial case that it was Ruth Paine who took the photos of Marina and her child in New Orleans at the Magazine Street apartment. These were also taken with the Imperial Reflex camera.

In the fall of 1963, when Marina and Lee moved back to Dallas, Mike Paine allegedly attended meetings of both the left and right, that is of the ACLU, of which he was a member, and the John Birch Society. He attended the former with Oswald.

It is fascinating that in the nineties, Mike Paine began to change his story about the BYP's. He did this for Gus Russo, twice. He now said that Oswald actually showed him one of these in April of 1963! Something he had never said before. Which is a bit startling. Not just because he never said this before, but because it now made informed people wonder: Why then would you be puzzled by what was allegedly underneath that blanket in your garage, to the point that you thought it was camping equipment? And, why would you let someone like this stay in your home?

But also, Paine said he saw one of the photos the night of the 22nd at DPD HQ. The problem with this is that they were not supposed to be found until the afternoon of the 23rd.

The effect of all this Mike Paine revisionism is that it alleviates the claims by critics that the BYP's were forgeries. That is, they were not made up after the fact at all. This is the MSM version.

But what critics should be asking is: Why did it take you decades to recall this information?

Apparently, Gus Russo couldn't think of that one.

Edited January 3, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

It is hard, I think, not to conclude from the above that the Paines were still spinning the case against Oswald into the nineties, and actually beyond.

Because in 2003, Mike Paine again told his tale of seeing the BYP in April of 1963 to ABC for the Peter Jennings special.

Gus Russo was the lead correspondent on that show, although his name was taken off the credits. (I know this for a fact since I corresponded with ABC over this program before it was broadcast.)

[Paul Trejo]

...But also, Paine said he saw one of the photos the night of the 22nd at DPD HQ. The problem with this is that they were not supposed to be found until the afternoon of the 23rd.

The effect of all this Mike Paine revisionism is that it alleviates the claims by critics that the BYP's were forgeries. That is, they were not made up after the fact at all. This is the MSM version. ...

One plausible explanation for the fact that the four Back Yard Photographs were FAKE is simply that LHO and Roscoe White made them at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Jack White (photographer) showed cogently that the Chin, Neck, Shoulders, Right Wrist and Stance of all the Back Yard Photographs belong to Roscoe White.

The face of LHO was superimposed on all of the Back Yard Photographs.

Why would LHO do this? For plausible deniability. LHO knew that he could prove that the Back Yard Photographs were FAKE. He had proof. Yet for some reason LHO insisted on distributing these photographs to the MILITANT newspaper, to George De Mohrenschildt, to Marina for June, and to Roscoe White. Nobody knows how many other copies there were.

(It thus remains plausible that LHO was fired from Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall for using company equipment for personal purposes -- e.g. his Alek J. Hidell ID card.)

If this is correct, then the chances are increased that Roscoe White was an accomplice of LHO in the General Walker shooting, and also involved in the JFK shooting, as his son Ricky White later claimed.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 3, 2016 by Paul Trejo