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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


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2 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

 

I see an Irishman in a tartan kilt holding a bagpipe, doctor.  If nothing else, this thread demonstrates that PM is little more than a Rorschach test.  The approach of PM fans seems to me fundamentally misguided.  By trying to measure the height of the figure, identify the clothing, account for the whereabouts of all the other TSBD employees, etc., we supposedly arrive at a high probability that PM is LHO.  But wait, what is the probability absolutely no one would have said LHO was standing on the steps?  What is the probability the conspirators who were planting LHO's rifle on the 6th floor and setting him up as the patsy would have allowed him to be anywhere near the front steps?  What is the probability LHO would not have been screaming to reporters, “I was on the front steps – ask the other employees who were there!”?  What is the probability Fritz would have stupidly put “out with Bill Shelley in front” in his notes if LHO had actually been saying he was standing out front with Shelley at the time of the assassination?  For each of these, the probability is essentially zero. Cumulatively, these probabilities overwhelm any probability you want to assign to the blurry, grainy photo.  Ergo, in the absence of a photo showing beyond question that PM is in fact LHO, the PM discussion is meaningless.  The logic being applied – oh, well, LHO "probably" did say he was on the steps, others "probably" did identify him but were intimidated or had their statements suppressed, the FBI "probably" confiscated other photos more clearly showing LHO, the conspirators "probably" had good reasons for not even caring if LHO was seen on the steps – is ass-backwards Conspiracy Logic that makes sense only if one has completely lost all perspective.  It's not just that the probability of all these "probablies" is pretty much zero, it's that they make no sense.  I have no foaming-at-the-mouth desire to prove PM is not LHO because all the other probabilities make it a virtual certainty it isn’t.  If it turns out to be, OK cool - but you will never "prove" it is by the sort of analysis being undertaken here, because all the other probabilities make it a virtual certainty your analysis is wrong.  You're going to overcome all those other probabilities, and the one-in-ten-million odds that flow from them, only with a definitive, no-question-about-it photo.

 

Lance:

I see it differently. If it will be possible to demonstrate that Prayer Man measured 5'9'' and that he came from the inside the building, the probability that he was Lee Harvey Oswald would be extremely high against the probability that it was just anyone. We speak about the odds of Prayer Man 1. was a Caucasian, 2. he was a male, 3. he wears a worker type of clothing, 4, his hair line is remarkably similar to that of Lee Harvey Oswald, 4. he came from inside the building (remains to be demonstrated), 5. he is 5'9'' tall (remains to be demonstrated). 6. Prayer Man assumed a specific stance which Oswald displayed on several occasions when photographed while standing upright (remains to be demonstrated).

These characteristics if taken together would be unusually unlikely to occur by chance, we speak about multiplying the probabilities, not about a probability of one single characteristic. The chance level can be evaluated by calculating the probability that any other from roughly 50 Depository employees would match each and every of these characteristics. Thus, the research into Prayer Man has a very good meaning because it narrows down the possibilities for any other employee to be Prayer Man. I agree that only looking on Darnell's picture cannot yield any conclusive confirmation of Prayer Man's identity. However, it is still worthy to bring this investigation to the ultimate endpoint available to us. 

Your post explains why you would never undertake any serious research in Prayer Man, and it has been noted in your earlier posts. Your attitude is basically similar to Bill's or Paul's. Other researchers are different. I would "stick into a dead  horse" just to find out what still can be learned. The further you go, the more difficult it gets. If people would say it is impossible, there would be no landing on the Moon or a discovery of Higgs bosson because why to do any research if the outcome is impossible...

As far as the clothing is concerned, let us stick to empirical data. Marina Oswald testified that the slacks Oswald wore on Friday morning were those shown in CE157, and the shirt was of about the same colour based on evaluation of black-and-white pictures (CE151 and CE157). The slacks had a specific feature - they did not hold the shape too well and were loose, especially in the bottom part. The slacks CE157 are compatible with Prayer Man's clothing and some features of his left leg, and the clothing CE151+CE157 certainly does not contradict the possibility that Prayer Man was Oswald, it rather strengthens it.

The evergreen of those opposing Prayer Man=Oswald hypothesis is that there was no one reporting him to be present in the doorway, therefore he could not have been in the doorway. I have commented on this in my previous posts, however, it is perhaps necessary to do it again. Oswald, if he were Prayer Man, stood in the doorway for a very short period, my estimate is between 45 and 120 s. It was the period overlapping with seconds just following the last shot up to two minutes later as Oswald was seen by Occhus Campbell only two minutes after the last shot in the storage room in the vicinity of the main entrance. During this period, people on steps were upset, perplexed, and viewed towards the Triple underpass/Grassy knoll. Those standing below Prayer Man would not turn their head towards the door to be able to spot Prayer Man. Those standing on the top platform did see Oswald but did not say. If Oswald was in the doorway, suppression of this information would be the first and primary task in the cover up. Frazier, Shelley and Lovelady were taken to the police headquarters almost right away, Molina was visited during the night (this I do not remember accurately). Mrs. Sanders and Miss Stanton gave their negative testimonies and were never seen. There never was a more sensitive issue than the presence of Oswald in the doorway in the whole cover up. If it did happen, we can be sure it would never perspire. If it did not happen, no one has reported. Thus, the absence of witness testimonies has no information value as it does not really exclude the possibility of a short stay of Oswald in the doorway.

By the way, no one actually saw Oswald after he allegedly came down from the second floor holding a bottle of Coke. Why? Is not strange that those employees who already were in the first floor vestibule did seen him passing. Just no one? They did not even see him leaving, supposedly via the doorway. Why? I see a complete blindness and avoidance to shed any light on Oswald's movements from 11.50 onward. Thus, Oswald could have been in the doorway for a brief period of time and no one would say anything. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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56 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Lance:

I see it differently. If it will be possible to demonstrate that Prayer Man measured 5'9'' and that he came from the inside the building, the probability that he was Lee Harvey Oswald would be extremely high against the probability that it was just anyone. We speak about the odds of Prayer Man 1. was a Caucasian, 2. he was a male, 3. he wears a worker type of clothing, 4, his hair line is remarkably similar to that of Lee Harvey Oswald, 4. he came from inside the building (remains to be demonstrated), 5. he is 5'9'' tall (remains to be demonstrated). 6. Prayer Man assumed a specific stance which Oswald displayed on several occasions when photographed while standing upright (remains to be demonstrated).

In 1960, the average height of American males was just over 5'8".  It is 5'9" today.  So if PM is actually 5'9", he is Mr. Average.  Things like the "worker type of clothing," "hair line remarkably similar to" LHO, "specific stance which LHO displayed," etc., seem to me to be Rorschach-type projections.  Because of the other high improbabilities that I identified, which you really did not address, even if it could be conclusively demonstrated that PM was a 5'9" male who came from inside the TSBD, and even if I were willing to put on my conspiracy beanie (which I am perfectly willing to do), a more plausible hypothesis to me would be that this mystery figure was actually someone connected with the conspiracy rather than LHO.  This would explain why no one paid any attention to PM or mentioned him - he was an inconsequential stranger.  Perhaps they assumed he was (or perhaps he actually was) a visitor associated with one of the several publishing companies that had offices inside the TSBD.  I'm not pooh-poohing your work - go for it.  But clearly, to me, (1) an intense desire for this to be LHO is driving the PM project, and (2) huge improbabilities that would have to fall into place for PM to be LHO are being ignored or explained away with raw speculation.  Surely the brouhaha over Lovelady supposedly being LHO should be cause for extreme caution?

2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

There should be literally thousands of pictures of the motorcade, and people, all around the motorcade, at the corner of Elm and Houston. The fact that there are not, is as strange as the fact that it seems so implausible that they could be made to disappear.

Yes, the paucity of photos does seem odd.  You have to remember, however, that this was hardly the age of digital cameras and cell phones.  When you look at the crowd standing at that corner, you see few if any cameras.  Putting on my conspiracy beanie again, there is one story that has always stuck in my mind.  Now I can't locate it or recall where I read it, of course, but I'm 99% sure it was in Walt Brown's chronology.  My description will probably be inaccurate, but someone can correct me.  Basically, a guy had an hour to kill in Dallas before his bus left for Denver (I think) at noon on the day of the assassination.  As I recall, he was a missionary of some sort.  Anyway, he wandered down to Dealey Plaza, took some photos, got on the bus, and went home without having told anyone about having taken any photos.  Incredibly, the next morning FBI agents were at the door of the rooming house where he lived - in Colorado, mind you - and confiscated his film.  If that is true - or anything like that is true - it's damn weird.

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Lance, I did hyperbolize with my "literally thousands" comment. But the point stands. You make a point, however, that existing photos do tend to support the idea that few people had cameras on that day; perhaps that is why those photos survive. I never cease to confound myself with ideas like this.

I am a sceptic, but I am not cynical, thank goodness. Unfortunately, I am not courageous, or at least I have not been tested. None of these inquires fools good, or safe; it's certainly not wise to talk to people you know about it. I should just surrender, buy a TV and a thousand-channel-cable-plan, and adopt a favorite professional sports team for each season. This stuff is murky and bewildering.

Edited by Michael Clark
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2 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

n 1960, the average height of American males was just over 5'8".  It is 5'9" today.  So if PM is actually 5'9", he is Mr. Average.  Things like the "worker type of clothing," "hair line remarkably similar to" LHO, "specific stance which LHO displayed," etc., seem to me to be Rorschach-type projections.  Because of the other high improbabilities that I identified, which you really did not address, even if it could be conclusively demonstrated that PM was a 5'9" male who came from inside the TSBD, and even if I were willing to put on my conspiracy beanie (which I am perfectly willing to do), a more plausible hypothesis to me would be that this mystery figure was actually someone connected with the conspiracy rather than LHO.  This would explain why no one paid any attention to PM or mentioned him - he was an inconsequential stranger.  Perhaps they assumed he was (or perhaps he actually was) a visitor associated with one of the several publishing companies that had offices inside the TSBD.  I'm not pooh-poohing your work - go for it.  But clearly, to me, (1) an intense desire for this to be LHO is driving the PM project, and (2) huge improbabilities that would have to fall into place for PM to be LHO are being ignored or explained away with raw speculation.

2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Lance:

You may have not understood my point. We speak about features of Prayer Man which collectively cannot occur by chance. You are right that by chance a stranger would likely measure 5'8''. However, he would also need to come from inside the building (needs to be demonstrated) and none of the Depository employees reported seeing any stranger in the building on that day. He would need to have a hairline matching Oswald's hairline, and he would need to stand with his left leg bent in the knee joint and the right leg pushed back, just like Oswald used to stand. He would also need to wear a worker type of clothing matching CE151 and C157. These are just too many characteristics matching Oswald that the chance that these features would match any random person at Dealey Plaza is just too small. Actually, the odds can be calculated but it does not have sense at this stage.

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Andrej, I don't want to beat this to death (but why not, since we're on page 45 anyway?), but I understood your point.  Sure, the factors you identify would, collectively, make it more likely that PM is LHO.  If PM can conclusively be shown to have come from inside the TSBD, that would be very significant.  But truly, the height, hair line, clothes, stance, etc., are never going to get you beyond "Yeah, PM could be LHO."  You then have to deal with the improbabilities I mentioned, which are going to drive you to "Yeah, but it's almost certainly not."  How many men in America, or even in my town, are similar in height, hair line, clothing type and stance to me?  More than a few, I would guess.  You say that no one reported any strangers in the TSBD that day?  But wait, surely any conspiracy theory worth it's salt has to posit that there were indeed strangers in the building that day, does it not?  If PM is LHO and there were no strangers in the TSBD, then I'm lost.  My theory, when I'm wearing my conspiracy beanie, would be that if there is not some mundane explanation for PM (a citizen who just stepped up there to get out of the sun, or for a better view, or who went into the TSBD to use the bathroom or pay phone) then PM is most likely some stranger connected with the conspiracy.  This would eliminate all of the other improbabilities I have mentioned - all of them.  Really, the PM folks need to show some love for my theory.  Then, when we finally get a photo conclusively showing PM is not LHO, they can easily shift to "Of course, it's not.  It's one of the conspirators!  That was our back-up hypothesis all along."

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Personally, I am not against the idea of Oswald being Prayer Man, it's just I don't think it's, with the currently available quality of images, possible to actually unequivocally nail the issue down...

On the 6 (actually 7) points Andrej makes, combined it does add up to something of a logical inference that the likliehood that Prayer Man is Oswald is extremely high, below are the 7 points (my comments added in brackets)

1. was a Caucasian (Fair inference)

2. he was male (Fair inference?)

3. he wears a worker type of clothing (Fair inference? - eg, say, looks more like type of clothing Lovelady (worker) wore than type of clothing Shelley (Supervisor) wore)

4. his hair line is remarkably similar to that of Lee Harvey Oswald (not the best quality image/video. Remarkably similar? Best that can be said surely is that it is similar. Depends on what image/video is being looked at)

5. he came from inside the building (a relatively fair inference as position implies highly unlikely to be someone from not in the building - not conclusive though)

6. he is 5'9" tall (the average height of a man at that time was about that)

7. assumed a specific stance which Oswald displayed on several occasions when photographed while standing upright (what is the 'specific stand'? And even if Oswald did on several occassions show the same 'specific stand' how common a stance is compared to other people?)

Considering that the 'hair-line' and the 'stance' are not necessarily unique to Oswald, setting them aside for the moment; starting with the probability that Prayer Man was indeed employed within the TSBD you start with, what, 75 people, then reduce that number by finding out how many of those were male, reduce it further by finding out how many were Caucasian, reduce it further by ruling out who we know it isn't (in terms of clothing, or indeed identiy either on steps or elsewhere), each step it narrows it down and the more it is narrowed down then the probability of it being Oswald, by definition, increases...

... it could be that it gets narrowed down so far that it becomes either Oswald or A.N. Other as both could be Male, Caucasian, in worker's clothes, average height and work in the TSBD, but without having anything known of A.N. Other how can that person be ruled out and Oswald ruled in? To do so would be to bring back the 'hair line' and the 'stance', both of which have not been 'conclusively proven' to be unique characteristics of Osawld...

... all of that is on the assumption to start with that it was someone from within the TSBD, and as I said earlier, the position does imply that it is highly unlikely to be someone from not in the building, alas it isn't conclusive.

Considering it from the other perspective. None of the other people have made mention of Oswald being on the step at that time, but as Andrej has previously mentioned that doesn't rule Oswald out as their attention may have been drawn elsewhere... alternatively no one else mentioned it because they were 'leaned' on not to admit it... also Oswald never claimed to be in that position at that time - according to Fritz's notes Oswald made two different references to where he was at the time (1) in the first interrogation he said he was in the first floor lunchroom and then went up to the second floor to buy a coke before being accosted by Baker (2) In his last interrogation he said that he went down to the second floor to buy a coke before being accosted by Baker. Also, at no time did Oswald say that at the time of the shots he was outside with Shelley, he did mention being 'out with Shelley' but that was in reference to after the meeting with Baker and on his way out leaving to go home... Whilst one can't know for sure exactly what Oswald said to Fritz, it is interesting to think that if Fritz was part of a 'set-up' to nail Oswald as the 6th floor shooter then why would he make up Oswald saying stuff that goes against the idea of 'setting him up', I digress. There is also the time when the reporter asked Oswald if he was in the building at the time and Oswald responded by saying that (I paraphrase) 'naturally I was in the building as I work there'. Technically someone could make the point that 'on the steps' could still be 'in the building', inasmuch as it's not away from the building, it has to be considered what Oswald didn't say, ie, on being asked if he was in the building at the time Oswald did not say 'oh actually I wasn't inside the building I was standing on the steps at the time'.

So there are plenty of arguments to say that it is likely Oswald was Prayer Man, but there is also enough to say that it likely wasn't. If it was Oswald then all the stuff that point away from it being him needs to be explained away, or if it wasn't Oswald then all the stuff that points to it being him needs to be explained away.

In simple terms then it can be said to come down to either (a) a lot of people were blind or part of a 'cover up', Fritz was part of the 'cover up', and Oswald thought 'in the building' was synonymous with 'on the steps' or (b) the photographic record isn't good enough to be conclusive.

Talking about probability then, which of those two options (a) or (b) is more likely?

As I said at the start, I am not against the idea of Oswald being Prayer Man, it's just I don't think it's, with the currently available quality of images, possible to actually unequivocally nail the issue down...

Regards.

P.S. As I was writing this there has been a few other posts, so apologies if some of this stuff has just been mentioned.
P.P.S Something else I would just like to mention in relation to this, there has been talk that the 'bottle of coke and brown paper bag' that can be seen on the steps whilst Prayer Man is there, and indeed, (long?) after must have belonged to Prayer Man, and as Oswald claimed to have had a lunch in a brown paper bag and had a coke, that the ones on the step must have been his and that is evidence that Oswald was Prayer Man... it has to be mentioned that Lovelady testified to having eaten his lunch on the steps and having drunk a coke on the steps, the probability is that the brown bag and bottle of coke on the steps belonged to Lovelady and not Prayer Man!

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15 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

1. was a Caucasian (Fair inference)

2. he was male (Fair inference?)

3. he wears a worker type of clothing (Fair inference? - eg, say, looks more like type of clothing Lovelady (worker) wore than type of clothing Shelley (Supervisor) wore)

4. his hair line is remarkably similar to that of Lee Harvey Oswald (not the best quality image/video. Remarkably similar? Best that can be said surely is that it is similar. Depends on what image/video is being looked at)

5. he came from inside the building (a relatively fair inference as position implies highly unlikely to be someone from not in the building - not conclusive though)

6. he is 5'9" tall (the average height of a man at that time was about that)

7. assumed a specific stance which Oswald displayed on several occasions when photographed while standing upright (what is the 'specific stand'? And even if Oswald did on several occassions show the same 'specific stand' how common a stance is compared to other people?)

We almost need a statistician here, but how significant are those 7 items?  Male / Caucasian / 5'9" / worker-type clothing / receding hairline / stance - none of these is even vaguely a unique identifier.  I hate to sound like one of OJ's defense lawyers, but this entire combination could fit thousands of men in Dallas.  "Came from inside the building" is the only one that strikes me as really significant.  And still, no one really wants to deal with the elephant in the room:  Suppose we nail this down to the level of "Yes, we are confident of those 7 factors.  Yes, we are confident this could indeed be LHO."  Do we then say (as I'll bet we do), "There you go.  We've proved it's LHO."  Or do we say, "OK, we're confident it could be LHO - but what do we do with all those other considerations that make it highly unlikely it is LHO?  Just explain them away, because we so desperately want this to be LHO?"  I continue to say the PM discussion is going nowhere until we have a photo that does not require any interpretation at all.

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Just for clarity. ;)

33 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Personally, I am not against the idea of Oswald being Prayer Man, it's just I don't think it's, with the currently available quality of images, possible to actually unequivocally nail the issue down...

On the 6 (actually 7) points Andrej makes, combined it does add up to something of a logical inference that the likliehood that Prayer Man is Oswald is extremely high, below are the 7 points (my comments added in brackets)

1. was a Caucasian (Fair inference)

2. he was male (Fair inference?)

3. he wears a worker type of clothing (Fair inference? - eg, say, looks more like type of clothing Lovelady (worker) wore than type of clothing Shelley (Supervisor) wore)

4. his hair line is remarkably similar to that of Lee Harvey Oswald (not the best quality image/video. Remarkably similar? Best that can be said surely is that it is similar. Depends on what image/video is being looked at)

5. he came from inside the building (a relatively fair inference as position implies highly unlikely to be someone from not in the building - not conclusive though)

6. he is 5'9" tall (the average height of a man at that time was about that)

7. assumed a specific stance which Oswald displayed on several occasions when photographed while standing upright (what is the 'specific stand'? And even if Oswald did on several occassions show the same 'specific stand' how common a stance is compared to other people?)

Yep, I'm in agreeance with what Lance just said, when he said, and I quote;

6 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

...  I continue to say the PM discussion is going nowhere until we have a photo that does not require any interpretation at all.

Regards

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38 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

We almost need a statistician here, but how significant are those 7 items?  Male / Caucasian / 5'9" / worker-type clothing / receding hairline / stance - none of these is even vaguely a unique identifier.  I hate to sound like one of OJ's defense lawyers, but this entire combination could fit thousands of men in Dallas.  "Came from inside the building" is the only one that strikes me as really significant.  And still, no one really wants to deal with the elephant in the room:  Suppose we nail this down to the level of "Yes, we are confident of those 7 factors.  Yes, we are confident this could indeed be LHO."  Do we then say (as I'll bet we do), "There you go.  We've proved it's LHO."  Or do we say, "OK, we're confident it could be LHO - but what do we do with all those other considerations that make it highly unlikely it is LHO?  Just explain them away, because we so desperately want this to be LHO?"  I continue to say the PM discussion is going nowhere until we have a photo that does not require any interpretation at all.

Lance:

here we came almost to agreement. Even if all points listed in my previous post would be proven beyond any doubt, I would still only be able to say that with an unusually high probability close to certainty Prayer Man was Oswald. 

As far as a better photograph is concerned, actually the best Darnell frame (posted by Robin Unger recently) may well be the best we can have. It is a good picture given that it is a frame from a film camera, not a photographic film, the distance, and the quality of the film material. Wiegman's film is a different cup of coffee - there could be a high quality copy somewhere which would reveal some novel aspects. 

I should add, if it is proven that Prayer Man came from inside the building, we then play not against "thousands of men in Dallas" but only against some 50-70 employees of the Depository, and it would actually converge to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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7 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

What colour pants do you see, Bill?

I see them being a lighter color in the PM image as someone pointed out earlier - like a workers uniform. The top being the same tone as the pants.

Edited by Bill Miller
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29 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Just for clarity. ;)

Yep, I'm in agreeance with what Lance just said, when he said, and I quote;

Regards

Here I disagree, the discussion may lead somewhere even with presently available pictures if we can determine e.g., Prayer Man's arrival to the doorway, or his body height.

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15 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

...

As far as a better photograph is concerned, actually the best Darnell frame (posted by Robin Unger recently) may well be the best we can have. It is a good picture given that it is a frame from a film camera, not a photographic film, the distance, and the quality of the film material. Wiegman's film is a different cup of coffee - there could be a high quality copy somewhere which would reveal some novel aspects. 

 

Andrej, is this the frame you mean? It's a cropped version available to view at Robin Ungers' site - a cropped (and blown up) version of the full image that is also on his site.

Darnell%20crop.jpg

 

Edited by Alistair Briggs
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15 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I should add, if it is proven that Prayer Man came from inside the building, we then play not against "thousands of men in Dallas" but only against some 50-70 employees of the Depository, and it would actually converge to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Or one of the conspirators.  Or someone who wandered in through the back after the others were already out front.

When I look at PM and the way he is supposed to be standing, it looks unnatural - reminiscent, if I dare say so, of the Backyard Photos.  The portion of the body below the arms looks "wider" or "bulkier" than I would expect LHO to look.  Almost like a pregnant woman (no I'm not going there).  Really, the whole person looks bulkier than LHO to me, but that's just an off-the-cuff observation.  I don't think I'd be prepared to say I see his legs at all.  What I think you're calling his left knee is so far out from the rest of his body that it looks unnatural to me, even if he is leaning.

Oh, well, good luck with the quest.

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5 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Alistair:

the picture I referred to was posted on January 5 in the other Prayer Man thread, page 183.

 

 

Here is that exact image that Robin posted on January 5th on page 183 of the other Prayer Man thread.

20130908-003704.jpg

...

13 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Here I disagree, the discussion may lead somewhere even with presently available pictures if we can determine e.g., Prayer Man's arrival to the doorway, or his body height.

With the presently available pictures we can't determine Prayer Man's arrival at the doorway... we can speculate on it but unless other pictures become availabe that show him arriving from a different place to that position we can't determine it at all! The location as seen in the presently available pictures carries a strong implication that Prayer Man came from within the building - I can buy in to that thinking - it's still not conclusive though....

... in terms of his height, perhaps from the presently available pictures we can determine Prayer Man's height (many have tried to do it, have any of them been conclusive?). Regardless, even if it was 'proved' from the presently available pictures that Prayer Man was 5ft 9 - the same height as Oswald, it's still not proof in and of itself that Prayer Man is Oswald. It may be held up as 'one more nail in the coffin' (so to speak)...

Not really sure, Andrej, why you disagree with my agreeance with what Lance said especially when you earlier said that you were ' almost to agreement ' with the exact same bit from Lance that I quoted!

Regards

P.S. for clarity I will repeat what I have said a couple of times already - Personally, I am not against the idea of Oswald being Prayer Man, it's just I don't think it's, with the currently available quality of images, possible to actually unequivocally nail the issue down.

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