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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


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Alistair:

the arms are positioned as we see them, as if holding some object in front of his chest with his right hand, and maybe even with his left hand. I was never able to identify any object in either hand though. However, he surely had something which reflected the light in his right hand in Wiegman's film. Some researcher claim it was a camera, other say it was a mug or a purse,,, I would vote for a bottle.

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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I just returned from the Prayer Man site, where I was checking what Frazier had said about PM - his most recent statement apparently being that he doesn't remember anyone there at all!

As to the arms, they do seem to me to be oddly "away" from the body, as though he were holding something out in front of him.  I tried duplicating this pose in a mirror and my arms were typically closer in to my body.  I can almost convince myself he's holding a jacket or something like that.  But I did see the enhanced portion of the Wiegman film posted by someone named Chris where it appeared to be a coffee mug and with a motion of lifting the mug to the mouth.  What happened with that discussion?

Actually, now that I compare them, he's actually holding his arms quite similarly to the Backyard Photos, the angle of PM being just a little more from the side.  I also note that in many photos LHO appears to have had a sharply sloping right shoulder, and I'll concede that this seems to be noticeable on PM as well.

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28 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 

the arms are positioned as we see them, as if holding some object in front of his chest with his right hand, and maybe even with his left hand. I was never able to identify any object in either hand though. ...

 

and

3 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

...

As to the arms, they do seem to me to be oddly "away" from the body, as though he were holding something out in front of him.  I tried duplicating this pose in a mirror and my arms were typically closer in to my body.  I can almost convince myself he's holding a jacket or something like that.  ...

Andrej and Lance, I have quote above just the parts of your comments in reference just to the arm position in the above picture...

You both seem to be in something of an agreeance about the arms, inasmuch it shows both his right hand and left hand. I too can see that. I would describe it as looking like he was using his right hand to put something in a left hand shirt pocket and that his left hand was resting on the left hand side of his chest just below where the shirt pocket could be. I'm not saying that he is putting something in a shirt pocket necessarily by the way, just using that as something of a 'referenece point' for the position of his hands.

Does that make sense? Would you agree that all 3 of us are (relatively) reading the arm positions in a similar way?

Regards

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Just now, Alistair Briggs said:

and

Andrej and Lance, I have quote above just the parts of your comments in reference just to the arm position in the above picture...

You both seem to be in something of an agreeance about the arms, inasmuch it shows both his right hand and left hand. I too can see that. I would describe it as looking like he was using his right hand to put something in a left hand shirt pocket and that his left hand was resting on the left hand side of his chest just below where the shirt pocket could be. I'm not saying that he is putting something in a shirt pocket necessarily by the way, just using that as something of a 'referenece point' for the position of his hands.

Does that make sense? Would you agree that all 3 of us are (relatively) reading the arm positions in a similar way?

Regards

Yes, I think so.  I added this to my post above just as you were responding:  "Actually, now that I compare them, he's actually holding his arms quite similarly to the Backyard Photos, the angle of PM being just a little more from the side.  I also note that in many photos LHO appears to have had a sharply sloping right shoulder, and I'll concede that this seems to be noticeable on PM as well."

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24 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

I just returned from the Prayer Man site, where I was checking what Frazier had said about PM - his most recent statement apparently being that he doesn't remember anyone there at all!

As to the arms, they do seem to me to be oddly "away" from the body, as though he were holding something out in front of him.  I tried duplicating this pose in a mirror and my arms were typically closer in to my body.  I can almost convince myself he's holding a jacket or something like that.  But I did see the enhanced portion of the Wiegman film posted by someone named Chris where it appeared to be a coffee mug and with a motion of lifting the mug to the mouth.  What happened with that discussion?

Actually, now that I compare them, he's actually holding his arms quite similarly to the Backyard Photos, the angle of PM being just a little more from the side.  I also note that in many photos LHO appears to have had a sharply sloping right shoulder, and I'll concede that this seems to be noticeable on PM as well.

Lance:

this picture was posted in this and one other (backyard picture) thread before. The top left picture is my Prayer Man reconstruction made in Poser11, and the right picture is of course the backyard picture. Yes, there is a remarkable similarity in the position of arms and legs between Prayer Man and Oswald (I know many will oppose) in Darnell's still and the backyard photograph.

backyard_pm.jpg?w=768

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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Just there I tried to recreate Prayer Man's arm positions shown in that photo. It felt like quite an uncomfortable position having my right arm across the chest like that unless I put my shoulder against the wall where it felt less ubcomfortable. Both times putting my left hand up in to that position felt wrong, I wanted to have my left arm down at my side, or left hand in my trouser pocket, or resting my left arm behind and hand at the small of my back... hopefully that makes sense. Might just be a preferential thing on how I personally would stand though. ;)

On the subject similarity to the Backyard Photos etc

18 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Actually, now that I compare them, he's actually holding his arms quite similarly to the Backyard Photos, the angle of PM being just a little more from the side.  I also note that in many photos LHO appears to have had a sharply sloping right shoulder, and I'll concede that this seems to be noticeable on PM as well.

and

2 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

... Yes, there is a remarkable similarity in the position of arms and legs between Prayer Man and Oswald (I know many will oppose) in the backyard picture.
 

I hadn't come across the subject of similarity between Prayer Man's stance and the Backyard Photos, I will certainly spend a bit of time looking in to that. :)

Just to return to the above image of Prayer Man,

I would like to take this opportunity to propose an alternative reading in to Prayer Man's stance, and I offer this up only as a possibility with no real contentions on my part of it being this way instead of what we have previously said...

What if Prayer Man is actually standing with his arms crossed - that is to say his left arm is beneath his right arm, his righ hand clasping on to this left elbow, and the left hand tucked underneath his right arm - and what we have previously read as being his 'left hand' is actually a reflection of the radiator that sat behind the glass door!

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Just now, Alistair Briggs said:

What if Prayer Man is actually standing with his arms crossed - that is to say his left arm is beneath his right arm, his righ hand clasping on to this left elbow, and the left hand tucked underneath his right arm - and what we have previously read as being his 'left hand' is actually a reflection of the radiator that sat behind the glass door!

Interesting, because I just happened to be on Google images checking the position of the radiator!  It certainly was very visible through the glass.

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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Here is that exact image that Robin posted on January 5th on page 183 of the other Prayer Man thread.

20130908-003704.jpg

...

With the presently available pictures we can't determine Prayer Man's arrival at the doorway... we can speculate on it but unless other pictures become availabe that show him arriving from a different place to that position we can't determine it at all! The location as seen in the presently available pictures carries a strong implication that Prayer Man came from within the building - I can buy in to that thinking - it's still not conclusive though....

... in terms of his height, perhaps from the presently available pictures we can determine Prayer Man's height (many have tried to do it, have any of them been conclusive?). Regardless, even if it was 'proved' from the presently available pictures that Prayer Man was 5ft 9 - the same height as Oswald, it's still not proof in and of itself that Prayer Man is Oswald. It may be held up as 'one more nail in the coffin' (so to speak)...

Not really sure, Andrej, why you disagree with my agreeance with what Lance said especially when you earlier said that you were ' almost to agreement ' with the exact same bit from Lance that I quoted!

Regards

P.S. for clarity I will repeat what I have said a couple of times already - Personally, I am not against the idea of Oswald being Prayer Man, it's just I don't think it's, with the currently available quality of images, possible to actually unequivocally nail the issue down.

"Not really sure, Andrej, why you disagree with my agreeance with what Lance said especially when you earlier said that you were ' almost to agreement ' with the exact same bit from Lance that I quoted!"

Sorry, Alistair, I probably misunderstood some of your statements.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Interesting, because I just happened to be on Google images checking the position of the radiator!  It certainly was very visible through the glass.

It certainly could be a possibility and even if it was ruled out it still highlights how there can alwasy be different interpretations in such photos.

Here is a photo (from page 84 of the 'Oswald Leaving The TSBD' thread - showing Fritz leaving the TSBD later on that day)

TSBDBottleFritzcrop_zps1790b4cb.jpg

It shows very well just how close that radiator is to the door. Notice also that on the door itself in a position just above the radiator there are (oh I can't remember the exact term of them) 'reflective strips'? - whatever the techincal term for them, I'm sure you will know what I mean...

Look back at the Prayer Man image - is it possible to see them there?

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14 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Just there I tried to recreate Prayer Man's arm positions shown in that photo. It felt like quite an uncomfortable position having my right arm across the chest like that unless I put my shoulder against the wall where it felt less ubcomfortable. Both times putting my left hand up in to that position felt wrong, I wanted to have my left arm down at my side, or left hand in my trouser pocket, or resting my left arm behind and hand at the small of my back... hopefully that makes sense. Might just be a preferential thing on how I personally would stand though. ;)

On the subject similarity to the Backyard Photos etc

and

I hadn't come across the subject of similarity between Prayer Man's stance and the Backyard Photos, I will certainly spend a bit of time looking in to that. :)

Just to return to the above image of Prayer Man,

I would like to take this opportunity to propose an alternative reading in to Prayer Man's stance, and I offer this up only as a possibility with no real contentions on my part of it being this way instead of what we have previously said...

What if Prayer Man is actually standing with his arms crossed - that is to say his left arm is beneath his right arm, his righ hand clasping on to this left elbow, and the left hand tucked underneath his right arm - and what we have previously read as being his 'left hand' is actually a reflection of the radiator that sat behind the glass door!

Alistair:

1. there seem to be a space between both arms, so they may not be crossed in the way you propose. 2. the radiator does not reach to the level of Prayer Man's arms.

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1 minute ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sorry, Alistair, I probably misunderstood some of your statements.

No worries. :) Sometimes when I am typing I tend to say things in a way that others sometimes missread.

Regards

1 minute ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 2. the radiator does not reach to the level of Prayer Man's arms.

I agree that would be the case if Prayer Man is standing on the same level as the door or one step down. However, if one was to compare the comparative sizes between that and the above photo of Fritz coming down the steps, Fritz's right hand is on the railing and is in an elevated position so that can't be used for a comparison, but his left arm is down beside his body so that is better to make a rough comparison. If one was to take  the approx location of Fritz's left elbow compared to what step he is on, and then imagine him being two steps back (ie: two steps up closer to the door) the relative position of his elbow would be just above the level of the radiator.

If Prayer Man was of a similar height to Fritz, if he was standing on the second step down then the level of the radiator would be just below the level of his elbow.

Hopefully that makes a bit of sense. If not I could try and use images to show it but would probably have to find a place to post them elsewhere to copy over to here as I don't think I have enough 'room' left to upload it directly.

Regards

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40 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Just there I tried to recreate Prayer Man's arm positions shown in that photo. It felt like quite an uncomfortable position having my right arm across the chest like that unless I put my shoulder against the wall where it felt less ubcomfortable. Both times putting my left hand up in to that position felt wrong, I wanted to have my left arm down at my side, or left hand in my trouser pocket, or resting my left arm behind and hand at the small of my back... hopefully that makes sense. Might just be a preferential thing on how I personally would stand though. ;)

On the subject similarity to the Backyard Photos etc

and

I hadn't come across the subject of similarity between Prayer Man's stance and the Backyard Photos, I will certainly spend a bit of time looking in to that. :)

Just to return to the above image of Prayer Man,

I would like to take this opportunity to propose an alternative reading in to Prayer Man's stance, and I offer this up only as a possibility with no real contentions on my part of it being this way instead of what we have previously said...

What if Prayer Man is actually standing with his arms crossed - that is to say his left arm is beneath his right arm, his righ hand clasping on to this left elbow, and the left hand tucked underneath his right arm - and what we have previously read as being his 'left hand' is actually a reflection of the radiator that sat behind the glass door!

Alistair:

this overlay may help you to understand the relationships between Prayer Man's arms and the reflective strip or the heater.

aligned_doorways.jpg?w=1700

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Alistair:

this overlay may help you to understand the relationship between Prayer Man arms and the reflective strip or the heater.

aligned_doorways.jpg?w=1700

Genuinely, thanks for posting that overlay Andrej, it is a good image, and well worth looking at...

Just from quickly looking at I think I see something of an issue with the way the 'overlay' has been placed atop the 'Darnell image'. Have a look at the words 'Book Depositry' on the 'overlay' compared to on the 'Darnell image', it looks like it needs nudged up a lot more on the left hand side (as we look at it) - I could be wrong, so appreciated any input from others.

Regards

Don't get me wrong, I do think it is a great piece of work indeed and very useful and helpful.

Edited by Alistair Briggs
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I had wrote a short dialogue that was meant to be funny as well as make an observation. I deleted the dialogue and my observation is that:

Prayer-man seems to be chatting with Frazier. That would make sense as LHO probably knew Frazier best at the TSBD. Fraziers body language speaks to me as well. 

As an aside, I was reading a thread discussing the future, at that time, of the PM thread. The "provenance" of the Darnell film was called into question with no follow-up. I may have missed it in one of the threads. Can someone explain the provenance issue?

Also in that thread I saw that this is a research thread and I'll go to the appropriate thread to post from here out.

Cheers

 

 

Edited by Michael Clark
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