Jump to content
The Education Forum

PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


Guest Duncan MacRae

Recommended Posts

On 1/14/2017 at 4:26 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Just from quickly looking at I think I see something of an issue with the way the 'overlay' has been placed atop the 'Darnell image'. Have a look at the words 'Book Depositry' on the 'overlay' compared to on the 'Darnell image', it looks like it needs nudged up a lot more on the left hand side (as we look at it) - I could be wrong, so appreciated any input from others.

It does little good to make a line of sight comparison ... if the two overlays are not views depicting the same lines of sight.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 4:50 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

"Not really sure, Andrej, why you disagree with my agreeance with what Lance said especially when you earlier said that you were ' almost to agreement ' with the exact same bit from Lance that I quoted!"

Sorry, Alistair, I probably misunderstood some of your statements.

 

 

 

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 3:09 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

20130908-003704.jpg

Lance & Andrej, if I may, can I enquire as to how you would describe Prayer Man's arms in the image above?

Regards

I haven't read this whole thread, and what I have to say has perhaps already been covered, debunked, or whatever. Anyway this is my two cents.

What I see is a person wearing a dress, that is, a woman. The shoulders above the arm and the rest of the body below the arm look to be clothed in the same garment, a dress, with a rather wide midriff. While the head looks like it could be Oswald's, the girth of this person as seen below the arm is out of proportion with Oswald.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

 

I haven't read this whole thread, and what I have to say has perhaps already been covered, debunked, or whatever. Anyway this is my two cents.

What I see is a person wearing a dress, that is, a woman. The shoulders above the arm and the rest of the body below the arm look to be clothed in the same garment, a dress, with a rather wide midriff. While the head looks like it could be Oswald's, the girth of this person as seen below the arm is out of proportion with Oswald.

 

 

I agree that the girth of the person doesn't fit Oswald in my view. Too broad of shoulders. Lee was rather thin.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

 

I haven't read this whole thread, and what I have to say has perhaps already been covered, debunked, or whatever. Anyway this is my two cents.

What I see is a person wearing a dress, that is, a woman. The shoulders above the arm and the rest of the body below the arm look to be clothed in the same garment, a dress, with a rather wide midriff. While the head looks like it could be Oswald's, the girth of this person as seen below the arm is out of proportion with Oswald.

 

A woman has been identified on the steps, wearing dark clothing, standing in front of the Prayerman figure, which makes his body appear to be wider than it is. Her head comes up right under His arms. Her leg can be seen on the steps below Prayerman.

Edited by Andrew Prutsok
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I agree that the girth of the person doesn't fit Oswald in my view. Too broad of shoulders. Lee was rather thin.

According to the picture shown, if that was Oswald, then he gained 50 pounds since the JFK assassination.  What is Prayer Person wearing?  The muumuu was not in fashion in 1963.  It could be a sport shirt, but then the person in this picture seems IMHO to be fat -- getting near 200 pounds.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

A woman has been identified on the steps, wearing dark clothing, standing in front of the Prayerman figure, which makes his body appear to be wider than it is. Her head comes up right under His arms. Her leg can be seen on the steps below Prayerman.

I believe that quite a few years ago Robin Unger identified that there was a woman standing in front of Prayer Man on the lower steps - as you say, if you look closely enough, you can see the bottom half of her legs . The overall effect is to make Prayer Man appear to be much 'bulkier' than he might be (that's not to say he wasn't bulky; obviously, we can't tell when there's a woman in front blocking the view). Not sure if it was Robin who first identified that there was a woman there but he was the first I was aware of.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ian Lloyd said:

I believe that quite a few years ago Robin Unger identified that there was a woman standing in front of Prayer Man on the lower steps - as you say, if you look closely enough, you can see the bottom half of her legs . The overall effect is to make Prayer Man appear to be much 'bulkier' than he might be (that's not to say he wasn't bulky; obviously, we can't tell when there's a woman in front blocking the view). Not sure if it was Robin who first identified that there was a woman there but he was the first I was aware of.

Andrew and Ian:

would it be possible to draw a contour around the alleged woman's body? The shape on the step indeed makes an impression of a human leg. However, where is a leg there is also a trunk, and where is a trunk there is also a neck and head. I just struggle to identify the contours of this alleged woman. I would therefore appreciate demonstrating to the community the contour of the alleged woman since maybe I am not the only one who fails to see the head under Prayer Man's arms. Would not this women be some kind of a giant?

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

A woman has been identified on the steps, wearing dark clothing, standing in front of the Prayerman figure, which makes his body appear to be wider than it is. Her head comes up right under His arms. Her leg can be seen on the steps below Prayerman.

I believe what you say is right, Andrew. The top of the dark scarf this woman is wearing may be blocking a little bit of the bottom of PM's right wrist and hand.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Andrew and Ian:

would it be possible to draw a contour around the alleged woman's body? The shape on the step indeed makes an impression of a human leg. However, where is a leg there is also a trunk, and where is a trunk there is also a neck and head. I just struggle to identify the contours of this alleged woman. I would therefore appreciate demonstrating to the community the contour of the alleged woman since maybe I am not the only one who fails to see the head under Prayer Man's arms. Would not this women be some kind of a giant?

Hi Andrej,

Unfortunately, I don't have the software or capabilities to do that!!! I'm quite sure that Robin and/or others have already done it in the past - maybe an internet search might bring something up or, hopefully, Robin will visit and see this and provide more information.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What about a different type of exercise: the alleged woman stood on the fourth step (counting the top landing as the first step), and her leg was about 2 feet apart from the central railing. That part of the doorway was lit by sunlight, and any shadow there was cast by people on lower steps. However, their shadows would not cover the upper part of the woman's body because she stood on a higher step than them. Therefore, we should see the lady illuminated pretty nicely at her left shoulder, and we should also see her head as a plastic 3D object, similar to other people in the doorway. If there were a human figure where the alleged woman stood (would somebody advocating this please draw a contour around her body), a shadow cast by her body would be seen on the rightmost part of Mrs. Reese's figure, however, it does not seem to be there.

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

I haven't read this whole thread, and what I have to say has perhaps already been covered, debunked, or whatever. Anyway this is my two cents.

What I see is a person wearing a dress, that is, a woman. The shoulders above the arm and the rest of the body below the arm look to be clothed in the same garment, a dress, with a rather wide midriff. While the head looks like it could be Oswald's, the girth of this person as seen below the arm is out of proportion with Oswald.

Hi Ron!  Your observation and others (right or wrong) certainly draws attention to how poor the image is for those wanting to know if it is Oswald or not. I do think however that this individual is too broad to be Lee. In this image he or she appears to be turned at a slight angle away from the camera which doesn't offer the total girth of this person. But even if we take the visible girth as it is and compare it to people who are far closer to the camera ... one can get a feel if the slim Lee Oswald should be as wide as this person labeled Prayer-Man seems to be.

I have taken several lines of equal width and have placed them on other people. I would suggest that anyone truly interested in knowing if this person could be Lee Oswald ... that they have someone skilled in Photogammetry determine the girth of this person. Of course that obligation should lay with those going to all  the trouble to have it be Lee. It just seems wrong to me that Prayer-Man when seen at a angle away from the camera should still be as wide as the man on the other side of Frazier who is seen from a straight on view.

 

girth copy.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill:

I am afraid that your lines are completely wrong. You are comparing the man on the pavement with Prayer Man (and two ladies). The man had a suit which makes his shoulders to look wider. Prayer Man is orientated differently than the man on the pavement. It is a 3D problem, and it also includes the factor of perspective (more distant objects looking smaller than close objects of the same size). It is difficult to determine the width of Prayer Man's shoulders in this picture.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

I am afraid that your lines are completely wrong. You are comparing the man on the pavement with Prayer Man (and one lady). I can see that the line on the man in the front does not really span from the tip of one shoulder to another. The man had a suit which makes his shoulders to look wider. Prayer Man is orientated differently than the man on the pavement. It is a 3D problem, and it also includes the factor of perspective (more distant objects looking smaller than close objects of the same size). It is difficult to determine the width of Prayer Man's shoulders on this picture.

That was the whole purpose of this exercise. People closer to the camera should not have the same length line be so close to reaching from side to side on their person. Even if Prayer-Man was facing the camera, then he would be wider in the camera's eye than he or she is when turned at an angle away from the camera. Yet people are are closer to the camera have the same line on their person as Prayer-Man does and yet he being turned at an angle is still as wide as people who are closer to the camera.

Of course this is not perfect, nor was it claimed to be. What it does however is point out some obvious flaws in Prayer-Man being Lee Oswald and is exactly why I recommended a personal skilled in Photogammetry examine this person to get a more precise measurement of this person's girth.

In case you did not notice - the line across Prayer-Man is not running from shoulder to shoulder and is why I placed the same line on the other people in similar fashion with the exception of the man on the other side of Frazier - that man turned directly towards the camera has his line across the shoulders.

Again, it is not my responsibility to be sure the claim that Prayer-Man may be Oswald - that obligation lies with those making the claim they could be one in the same person. I said that this matter should be looked at my someone skilled in Photogammetry so to insure the highest level of accuracy possible. If accuracy is not important, then disregard my recommendation.

Edited by Bill Miller
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill:

would you know about an example of a photogammetry analysis in the area of JFK assassination? I am not familiar with the method but I assume that at least two (the more the better) photographs of the same object taken from different view angles are necessary to reconstruct a 3D object. In Prayer Man case we only have one angle and cannot see the entire body. Is photogammetry actually feasible in this case?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

girth copy.jpg

Edited 1 hour ago by Bill

 

A fairly comparable comparison with Prayer Man (in terms of perspective) is the guy standing to our right of Frazier, wearing light colored clothing.

On him Bill's white line just extends to the corners of his shoulders. Not so on PM. The left end of the line (our left) reaches out the the PM's elbow. And PM's elbow is extended away from his body.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...