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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 

(As we look at the image...)

Left hand side: Frame from Hughes film
Right hand side: Frame from Weigman film

 

I believe if someone found a good full frame view and considered the line of sight that Lovelady is being viewed - they would find that Lovelady was standing near the handrail and was still on the west (knoll) side of it. 

There is a shade line that crosses the landing where Frazier is standing. Note his torso is sunlit while his head is not.

 

20130908-003704.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
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26 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

 

I believe if someone found a good full frame view and considered the line of sight that Lovelady is being viewed - they would find that Lovelady was standing near the handrail and was still on the west (knoll) side of it.

In furtherance...

...for illustration purposes only...

... here is a clear photo of the TSBD entrance.
tsbd-door-clear.jpg

and here is the same image reversed (for illustration purposes only).

tsbd-door-clear-reversed.jpg

 

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14 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, the direction Frazier is saying that "Billy and them" walked was toward the President's limousine. In other words, over to the concrete island.

From Frazier's testimony, it sounds like the reason they went there was to get a view of the limousine. They could no longer see the limo from the steps because the view was blocked by spectators. Going to that area would allow them to sidestep the spectators and hopefully again see the limo.

Mr. BALL - Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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13 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

 

20130908-003704.jpg

 

Well I can't get over how fat "Oswald" looks here. And that can't be a loose work shirt as has been suggested. No loose shirt would look that wide on Oswald. A loose shirt is not much wider than the person wearing it. And what kind of shirt goes down to the knees if not the ankles?

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17 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

 

Well I can't get over how fat "Oswald" looks here. And that can't be a loose work shirt as has been suggested. No loose shirt would look that wide on Oswald. A loose shirt is not much wider than the person wearing it. And what kind of shirt goes down to the knees if not the ankles?

Could be a woman. ;)

*I won't make the 'button' argument that was previously debunked though. lol

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21 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Lovelady entered the building twice! Once via the back and once via the front...

Lovelady's journey: On steps at front of building (with Shelley) -  leaves steps (with Shelley) - journeys round the back (with Shelley) - enters the building from the back (with Shelley) - is inside the building (separates from Shelley) - goes out through the front door - on steps at front of building (captured in Hughes film) - re-enters building via the front.

 

Muhahahahhaha Oh really?

You and Bill Miller  base this on what exactly?

The question him being asked at 29:00 mins was how long it took for him to get back inside after the shots had been fired?

I suggest you listen to both tapes!

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

And have a think about this as well while yer at it!

 

Sean Murphy mentioned in the Oswald Leaving TSBD thread the following:

Sean Murphy posts about Billy Lovelady at the Education Forum in 2013 (Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light, Chapter 9):
In the first part of his HSCA interview Billy Lovelady Lovelady is shown an image he has never seen before: a frame from the John Martin film showing him (Lovelady) standing over by the east side of the entrance some 15 minutes post-assassination. Lovelady identifies himself immediately.
HSCA: If a movie camera showed you farther in the center of the doorway than that person there [i.e. Lovelady in Altgens, who appears, due to the deceptive angle, to be well over to the left/west of the entrance] would you still identify that person as being yourself?

LOVELADY: Sure would. I would say the other picture was not taken at the split second as the one to the left is.
HSCA: Okay, alright. If it showed two figures in that doorway at the same time, and you could positively identify one as yourself, would that have any bearing on your identification of that other figure?
LOVELADY: No, that’s still me at the left [of the] doorway.
Whether knowingly (i.e., with knowledge of the Prayer Man figure in Wiegman) or unknowingly (i.e., by pure speculation), the HSCA interviewer has preempted the very discussion we have been having in this thread: 
Two Lovelady-resembling men caught on film at the time of the assassination, one over on the west ("left") side of the entrance and the other more towards the center.
 

Edited by Bart Kamp
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10 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

You and Bill Miller  base this on what exactly?

The question him being asked at 29:00 mins was how long it took for him to get back inside after the shots had been fired?

I suggest you listen to both tapes!

I've listened to both tapes.

I've also read your article on it where you pose this question:
" In Lovelady’s HSCA interview he stated that it took him 20 to 25 minutes before he returned to the TSBD. Then how comes he is standing on the steps in the John Martin pic/video below? "

 

22 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

And have a think about this as well while yer at it!

 

Sean Murphy mentioned in the Oswald Leaving TSBD thread the following:

Sean Murphy posts about Billy Lovelady at the Education Forum in 2013 (Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light, Chapter 9):
In the first part of his HSCA interview Billy Lovelady Lovelady is shown an image he has never seen before: a frame from the John Martin film showing him (Lovelady) standing over by the east side of the entrance some 15 minutes post-assassination. Lovelady identifies himself immediately.
HSCA: If a movie camera showed you farther in the center of the doorway than that person there [i.e. Lovelady in Altgens, who appears, due to the deceptive angle, to be well over to the left/west of the entrance] would you still identify that person as being yourself?

LOVELADY: Sure would. I would say the other picture was not taken at the split second as the one to the left is.
HSCA: Okay, alright. If it showed two figures in that doorway at the same time, and you could positively identify one as yourself, would that have any bearing on your identification of that other figure?
LOVELADY: No, that’s still me at the left [of the] doorway.
Whether knowingly (i.e., with knowledge of the Prayer Man figure in Wiegman) or unknowingly (i.e., by pure speculation), the HSCA interviewer has preempted the very discussion we have been having in this thread: 
Two Lovelady-resembling men caught on film at the time of the assassination, one over on the west ("left") side of the entrance and the other more towards the center.
 

I had already read that more than once prior to you posting it here by the way. What exactly is worth thinking about?

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Lovelady entered the building twice! Once via the back and once via the front...

Lovelady's journey: On steps at front of building (with Shelley) -  leaves steps (with Shelley) - journeys round the back (with Shelley) - enters the building from the back (with Shelley) - is inside the building (separates from Shelley) - goes out through the front door - on steps at front of building (captured in Hughes film) - re-enters building via the front.

It could have been...

Lovelady's journey: On steps at front of building (with Shelley) -  leaves steps (with Shelley) - journeys round the back (with Shelley) - enters the building from the back (with Shelley) - is inside the building (separates from Shelley) - goes back out the back door - makes the reverse journey - on steps at front of building (captured in Hughes film) - re-enters building via the front.

It's really inconsequential. As it's not hard to reconcile Lovelady's words in to a coherent timeline - without having to rely on him making stuff up. ;)

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On 2/12/2017 at 6:48 AM, Ron Ecker said:

 

Well I can't get over how fat "Oswald" looks here. And that can't be a loose work shirt as has been suggested. No loose shirt would look that wide on Oswald. A loose shirt is not much wider than the person wearing it. And what kind of shirt goes down to the knees if not the ankles?

And the figure is wide even when turned at an angle to the camera. Even wider if he turns straight on with the camera. While a fuzzy image can be said to look like it could have been Oswald - the girth causes him  not to be Oswald in my view.

It will be interesting watching how those who have so much invested in Oswald being Prayer-Man will handle this revelation. They either got to fatten the real Oswald up or slim Prayer-Man down.  :)

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15 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

It will be interesting watching how those who have so much invested in Oswald being Prayer-Man will handle this revelation. They either got to fatten the real Oswald up or slim Prayer-Man down.  :)


They obviously don't see the same girth that you guys do. Otherwise they wouldn't be thinking PM could be Oswald. (I don't see the girth that you guys see either. I can't tell where PMs' shirt ends and the west wall begins.

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3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


They obviously don't see the same girth that you guys do. Otherwise they wouldn't be thinking PM could be Oswald. (I don't see the girth that you guys see either. I can't tell where PMs' shirt ends and the west wall begins.

To start with - I don't think any girth was ever considered previous to now .... there certainly do not seem to have been any body size ratio comparisons made to that of Lee Harvey Oswald.  Also, if I had a lot of work involved in trying to make a case for Oswald being Prayer-Man, then I too would not be so quick to accept the girth observation.  The thing now is the girth has been raised and sooner or later someone skilled in Photogammetry will answer that question, thus leaving little wiggle room one way or the other on this issue.

Edited by Bill Miller
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3 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

To start with - I don't think any girth was ever considered previous to now .... there certainly do not seem to have been any body size ratio comparisons made to that of Lee Harvey Oswald.  Also, if I had a lot of work involved in trying to make a case for Oswald being Prayer-Man, then I too would not be so quick to accept the girth observation.  The thing now is the girth has been raised and sooner or later someone skilled in Photogammetry will answer that question, thus leaving little wiggle room one way or the other on this issue.

Bill:

as your style is, you again slip photogammetry as a tool to reconstruct and maybe measure Prayer Man's body or at least torso. However, to do photogammetry, one needs to have an object to be photographed from at least two quite different angles. The more angles the better the result. Would you please explain, since you propose it repeatedly, how can photogammetry be done with having Prayer Man photographed (although one can say repeatedly) from one and the same view angle? Or will you evade again as if nothing happened?

Coming to the question whether Prayer Man's torso looks thick: the problem is that we do not see Prayer man's torso as a spatial object, and therefore the side of his trunk is simply added to one large-looking 2D region. Instead of seeing how the front of the chest and abdomen bends towards the side, we see it as one flat area. It is that simple. The same applies to the lack of any clear boundary between the torso and legs. Oswald wore a worker type of shirt and slacks. Both were loose and the shirt wings appear to be over the slacks. Since they were of practically the same colour and owing to the really bad signal in that portion of the picture, it is very difficult to draw the contours of legs and waist.

I have modelled Prayer Man's figure extensively, and know that Praye Man's contour in Darnell's stills can be fit with a normal-weight man. The discussions of late in Prayer Man's threads are only about subjective interpretations of individual perceptions which lead the contributors to argue what could happen and what not, who someone was and who not. I am not sure that this is the way forwards.

I am adding the picture of Oswald's shirt and slacks again to explain my point re. the transition between the shirt and slacks in Prayer Man's figure one more time:

kosile.png

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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