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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


Guest Duncan MacRae

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Yeah, let's go round and round.......bring on the camera again.....and again.

Speculate some more please. This thread and the other one are utterly bastardised these past few months with hardly any significant and above all valuable finds.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Ron, I just put that 'quote' from you above here, so that you would get a notification about this post, in case it passes you by. ;) Regards.

 

Here is an image I found on Google of the Altgens 6 (top) and Weigman frame (bottom) on which someone else has put the letters A to G on to  match up those people. One has to consider the difference in perspective of where each image was taken (they were both taken at relatively at the same time).

(NB: the C in the Altgens 6 should probably be placed more to the right hand side as we look at it and more to 'beneath' the A).

normal_16832.jpg

A = Molina
B = Williams
C = Dean
D = Reese
E = Shelley
F = Lovelady
G = Jones
(NB: Frazier is not seen in these images because he is too much in the 'shade')

As we move on let us say that;
H = Frazier
I = Davis
J = McCully

At this junction here is the Couch/Darnell sync from which the 'Darnell frame' comes from. It is approx 30 seconds after the time of the 'Altgens6/Weigman frame' picture.

darnellcouchsync24fpsa6kkb.gif

Couple of things to look out for there. First the two people walking away are claimed to be Shelley and Lovelady (*although there is some doubt about that) and secondly the man that arrives at the 'traffic light pole' is Jones.

Here is a quick image I knocked up of the Darnell frame on which I have put the letters on to match the people from the 'Altgens 6/Weigman frame' picture.

identification1.jpg

A (Molina), B (Williams), C (Dean) and D (Reese) haven't really moved that much in the previous 30 seconds. As mentioned above* E (Shelley) and F (Lovelady) have moved away from the steps and G (Jones) has made his way across to the 'traffic lights pole'. H (Frazier) has now 'come out of the shadows'.

Based on the location that Davis said she stood (on the lower steps) with McCully, and McCully said she was with Davis, I have I as Davis and J as McCully (but it might be the other way round to be honest).

*In the Darnell frame you can see 3 people in the position that Jones had been 30 seconds previously. None of them were in that position at the time of the shots, and from looking at the following gif an argument can be made that both 'all black' and 'all white' people are returning to the building (ie had been outwith that vicinity at the time of the shots. As for 'white head' person (Who appears to be facing down and talking to 'all black person), I don't know who it is or where they came from to be honest - (some people have made the claim that it is Lovelady and he hadn't left the steps by that time, but that could be a moot point in terms of this discussion anyway.)

Prayermangif3.gif

 

It has to be stated that the 'Prayer Man' figure is viewable in both the Wiegman frame and the Darnell clip.

From looking at the photographic evidence of Altgens 6, Wiegman Frame and Darnell Frame, and cross referencing it with the 'testimony' of those who said they were on the steps at the time  it's reasonable to say that 10 of them have been identified; Molina, Williams, Dean, Reese, Shelley, Lovelady, Jones, Frazier, Davis and McCully.

Who is left over? Stanton and Sanders

If we look at what each of them said as to where they stood;

Stanton: says she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady and Williams.
Sanders: says she took up a position on the top steps and that Stanton was standing next to her.

*Point of contention: Sanders said she was on the top step at the 'East' entrance!

*A point of interest; Molina: says he stood at the railings on the 'east side' of the building but does not recall who stood beside him but does know that Sanders viewed the motorcade.

As we look at the photographic evidence of the steps, the 'east side' is the right hand side as we look at it, and the 'west side' is the left hand side as we look at it.

Molina was certainly correct about being on the 'east side' as that is backed up by the photographic evidence, Sanders can't be beside him because he mentions her after saying that he does not recall who stood beside him! From the photographic evidence the two people that stood 'beside' him look to be Williams (up left as we look at it) and either Davis or McCully (down right as we look a it). So when Sanders said she was at the 'east' entrance that is not backed up by the photographic evidence...

... what if then, when Sanders said 'east' she actually meant the opposite side from where Molina is. How could she make such an error? Look at a compass, which side is East as you look at it? To the right hand side! What if, then, Sanders, when she said she was on the 'east' side she meant the 'right hand side' (from her perspecitve - facing out) and thus she was in real terms standing on the 'west side' of the steps.

 

Alistair:

you may wish to look again on your allocation of names to individual persons in Darnell's still. Otis Williams is still there, in my view, in front of the man in a suit. That man on the top landing wearing a suit could be Shelley. The contours of Otis Wiliams are less clear but he is the white spot in front (below) and slightly to Shelley's right. We do not see his head because he is shielding his eyes with his right forearm and hand. The man in suit (B in your scheme) cannot be Williams because Williams wore a long-sleeve white shirt - please consult Altgens6.

Further to the recent discussion, it may be that Lovelady is the man at a spot previously occupied by Carl Jones. It would make sense to have both Lovelady and Shelley on the steps in Darnell as if Lovelady is still there how could Shelley leave sooner if he stood in the back of the doorway. Both men could leave the doorway in the next few seconds, still in the range of 15-20 seconds.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ron Ecker said:

I haven't really thought about his or her height. I think it could be a woman because it looks like she's wearing a dress. Or course it could be a man with a loose work shirt (and matching pants) too. IMO it's either Stanton or Oswald. As with so much else in this case, there's no way to reach a conclusion.

 

Ron:

in a way, you may be right that there is no way to reach a conclusion (Stanton vs. Oswald). The effort should be to find out any photograph of Sarah Stanton. Roy Lewis and Beull Wesley Frazier are alive - they could say how tall Sarah Stanton was.

While it is possible to view everything as being ambiguous, there are details which in my view comulatively tilt the weights towards Oswald. She was an office lady - would she wear a shirt with sleeves rolled up to the elbows?  Would she drink from a bottle in public? How likely would be that Stanton's hairline matched a male (Oswald's) hairline. 

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1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy:

my estimate of the door height (inner plate)  is 83 inches. One needs to take into account the distance of Prayer Man from the door as a person standing closer to the front of the top platform will be looking 1 or maybe slightly more than 1 inch taller than a person standing right at the glass door. If Prayer Man stood too far to the back, his right hand would not reflect the light, and his right elbow would be too far from the brick column, Also, one needs to take into account the elevation of Darnell's camera. The relative heights of two objects not being on the same plane will change with changing elevation of the camera. Finally, any height calculation should also take into account  that the man may not be standing erect. Any bending of the head or curling the body unless compensated in the estimate would cost few inches. How was Prater Man bent or curled? I am testing the possibility that Prayer Man actually stood as Oswald used to stand: carrying the weight of his body on his right leg which is pushed backwards and having his left leg slightly bent in the knee joint and pushed forwards. This would be Oswald's backyard photograph pose. You may remember the discussion about Oswald's pose in one of backyard picture threads. This is why I asked you some weeks ago  if you would agree that Prayer Man was bending his left leg - it is about the template onto which a preliminary manikin's pose can be fit.

While it is possible to apply a simple calculus to calculate Paryer Man's height, it should be understood that it is within the limits described here as all factors (relative distance of Prayer Man and the glass door, camera view angle, exact body posture) affect the height estimate.


Okay, thanks.

I really need the correct height, not an estimate. 83 inches is too short for this style of door. It could be 84 inches. These days they come in heights up to 96 inches and taller.

 

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28 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

you may wish to look again on your allocation of names to individual persons in Darnell's still. Otis Williams is still there, in my view, in front of the man in a suit. That man on the top landing wearing a suit could be Shelley. The contours of Otis Wiliams are less clear but he is the white spot in front (below) and slightly to Shelley's right. We do not see his head because he is shielding his eyes with his right forearm and hand. The man in suit (B in your scheme) cannot be Williams because Williams wore a long-sleeve white shirt - please consult Altgens6.

First of all, regarding the lettering of the people A-G in the 'Altgens6/weigman frame' picture, it wasn't me that put those letters on it. Secondly, as for the identification on those in the 'Altgens6/weigman frame' picture, earlier on I asked for 'help' in identifying the marked people on it, Bart Kamp responded and that is what I have gone on with. That is the same Bart Kamp whose Prayer Man site you directed me to previously, and the same Bart Kamp who has Lovelady and Shelley both having left the steps by the time of the Darnell frame... 

... In the Darnell frame there is no "man on the top landing wearing a suit", and even if there was (which there isn't) it couldn't be Shelley because Shelley has left the steps by then! Also, when you say,

Quote

The man in suit (B in your scheme) cannot be Williams because Williams wore a long-sleeve white shirt - please consult Altgens6.

In none of the 3 images is B pointing to a man in a suit. In all 3 cases it is pointing to someone wearing 'long sleeve white shirt' (less clear in Altgens 6) and that person is Williams!

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2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy:

Prayer Man did not have his hands connected in Darnell's still and therefore could not hold any object (Coke) with both hands.


I see PM's hands in Darnell staying close together, out in front of him at chest level. Like he is holding something with both hands. A camera IMO.

 

Quote

Prayer Man is lifting his right arm toward his head in Wiegman which would be consistent with an act of drinking.


And his left hand goes up as well. PM appears to be holding a camera HORIZONTALLY with both hands at chest level. He then brings it up to has face as if he wishes to take a shot. He brings his right hand up, and his left hand up a little and and to his right. This rotates the camera to its correct, vertical position.

We've been told that the view finder of that type of camera can be held up to the face like that.

 

Quote

The light reflecting object would then be the bottom of a bottle. Prayer Man could have left the bottle in the recess next to his right foot as proposed by Bart. This could occur between Wiegman's and Darnell's film.

In Darnell, I cannot see any object in any of his hands but I may be mistaken or the picture quality is just not sufficient.

Therefore, it is unlikely that Prayer Man held a camera. Where did the camera go in Darnell?


You believe nothing is in PM's hands in Darnell, and yet his hands are still up in front of him just as before. Of course he is still holding whatever he was holding before.

 

Quote

While it is possible to explain the disappearance of a bottle, it would be hard to do with a camera.


He is still holding the camera in Darnell. It's just hard to make out.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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8 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

First of all, regarding the lettering of the people A-G in the 'Altgens6/weigman frame' picture, it wasn't me that put those letters on it. Secondly, as for the identification on those in the 'Altgens6/weigman frame' picture, earlier on I asked for 'help' in identifying the marked people on it, Bart Kamp responded and that is what I have gone on with. That is the same Bart Kamp whose Prayer Man site you directed me to previously, and the same Bart Kamp who has Lovelady and Shelley both having left the steps by the time of the Darnell frame... 

... In the Darnell frame there is no "man on the top landing wearing a suit", and even if there was (which there isn't) it couldn't be Shelley because Shelley has left the steps by then! Also, when you say,

In none of the 3 images is B pointing to a man in a suit. In all 3 cases it is pointing to someone wearing 'long sleeve white shirt' (less clear in Altgens 6) and that person is Williams!

Alistair:

I may be looking at a completely different picture else I do not understand. The picture below the GIF in your post, this is a Darnell's still. In it, you have a red line associated with letter B - that man in my view is Shelley, standing on the top landing. The same man who is seen in Altgens, he wears a suit. There is then another man below him, one white speck - that one in my view is Williams. If you would recognise the man below Shelley, you would have an arrow pointing to it, but there is no such arrow in your picture. Therefore I assumed you have missed this other man in your map.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 


I see PM's hands in Darnell staying close together, out in front of him at chest level. Like he is holding something with both hands. A camera IMO.

 


And his left hand goes up as well. PM appears to be holding a camera HORIZONTALLY with both hands at chest level. He then brings it up to has face as if he wishes to take a shot. He brings his right hand up, and his left hand up a little and and to his right. This rotates the camera to its correct, vertical position.

We've been told that the view finder of that type of camera can be held up to the face like that.

 


You believe nothing is in PM's hands in Darnell, and yet his hands are still up in front of him just as before. Of course he is still holding whatever he was holding before.

 


He is still holding the camera in Darnell. It's just hard to make out.

Sandy:

there is nothing which can create any doubt in your mind, so I leave you with your camera.

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2 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Alistair:

I may be looking at a completely different picture else I do not understand. The picture below the GIF in your post, this is a Darnell's still. In it, you have a red line associated with letter B - that man in my view is Shelley, standing on the top landing. The same man who is seen in Altgens. he wears a suit. There is then another man below him, one white speck - that one in my view is Williams.

Happy to work through this with you. :)

If I'm reading you correctly you are saying that in the Darnell frame that the red line associated with the letter B is Shelley standing on the top steps wearing a suit...

This is the Darnell frame:

identification1.jpg

The person associated with B there does not appear to be wearing a suit, and it can't be Shelley anyway because Shelley has left the steps by this time.

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5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

PM might be a woman. PM might not be an employee working in the TSBD building. PM might be a CIA agent. PM might be one of the conspirators. PM might be my uncle. As they say, anything is possible.

But it all comes down to statistics. Odds are high PM is a man who works in the TSBD building. Odds are low that he's a CIA agent or a conspirator. I'd bet the farm he's not my uncle.

So while it is true that PM might be a woman, beginning with the assumption that he is what he looks like -- a man -- is more likely to lead to a correct identification. (BTW, I'm confident that a good majority of people would say PM looks like a man.)

Of course, there is nothing wrong if someone wants to follow the Oswald-is-a-woman hypothesis.

I will refer back to a comment I made previous on this thread. And I will reiterate something I have repeated often - the 'odds are high' that PM is someone who works in the TSBD. And I will reiterate something I have said on a few ocassions - PM looks like it could be a man (with the caveat that the image quality is not the best to make an identification)...

... also, the frames that we are looking at have been 'lightened' and who knows what else has been done to them (innocently, of course. ;) ) to bring out as much 'detail' as possible.

Anyway, yeah, on face value (pardon the pun), PM looks like a man...

... even still, it remains that there are 2 females who stood on the steps, corroborated by other people on the steps, whose locations have yet to be identified.

*

Ron asked,

3 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

Have you ever known a woman who looks like a man? I have.

Sandy replied,

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


It's all about statistics, Ron. What percentage of women in 1963 looked like men? Very few. Most women in that era had the customary long hair.

I agree with Sandy; at that time a very small percentage of women would 'look like men' and that most women in that era had the 'customary' long hair.

From looking at many of the photographs from around Dealey Plaza that day, however, there can be seen quite a few women wearing head scarfs. Considering the position of PM, and considering the 'lightening' that has been done to the Darnell frames, and considering the 'quality' of them in the first place, there remains the possibility, (however small a possibility), that PM could be a woman who is wearing a headscarf which would 'hide' the 'customary' long hair...

...but...

Anyway, yeah, on face value (pardon the pun), PM looks like a man...

... even still, it remains that there are 2 females who stood on the steps, corroborated by other people on the steps, whose locations have yet to be identified.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Andrej:

There is nothing which can create any doubt in your mind, so I leave you with your coke.

Sorry, Sandy, but there is a difference between our standpoints, they are not comparable. It is not whether Prayer Man held a Coke or a camera - it ts the difference between holding nothing and a camera. My view that Prayer Man does not hold anything in his hands during Darnell's film and I therefore am not obliged to e.g., draw contours around the alleged object. Your position, however, prompts you to somehow demonstrate that there was a solid object resembling a camera in Prayer Man's hands in Darnell's still.

I am very sorry: I cannot see any such object in Prayer Man's hands, however, am keen to look at the contours of anything which you would draw.

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3 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

I haven't really thought about his or her height. I think it could be a woman because it looks like she's wearing a dress. Or course it could be a man with a loose work shirt (and matching pants) too. IMO it's either Stanton or Oswald. As with so much else in this case, there's no way to reach a conclusion.

 

^ QFT

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Further to the recent discussion, it may be that Lovelady is the man at a spot previously occupied by Carl Jones. It would make sense to have both Lovelady and Shelley on the steps in Darnell as if Lovelady is still there how could Shelley leave sooner if he stood in the back of the doorway. Both men could leave the doorway in the next few seconds, still in the range of 15-20 seconds.

I'm not against the idea of Lovelady being in that position in the Darnell frame, and I'm not against the idea of Shelley still being there (although someone needs to point out where Shelley is in the Darnell frame), however, imo both Lovelady and Shelley have left by the time of that Darnell frame, and are the two seen 'walking' away in the Darnell/Couch sync, and I know that Bart Kamp thinks the same (it's on his website here. ;) ) and I accept that as being the case...

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Ron:

in a way, you may be right that there is no way to reach a conclusion (Stanton vs. Oswald). The effort should be to find out any photograph of Sarah Stanton. Roy Lewis and Beull Wesley Frazier are alive - they could say how tall Sarah Stanton was.

While it is possible to view everything as being ambiguous, there are details which in my view comulatively tilt the weights towards Oswald. She was an office lady - would she wear a shirt with sleeves rolled up to the elbows?  Would she drink from a bottle in public? How likely would be that Stanton's hairline matched a male (Oswald's) hairline. 

In terms of ambiguity, and considering the 'quality' of the clips/frames in question (and in particular the 'lightening' that has been done to the Darnell frame'), how is it known that PM is wearing a shirt with sleeves rolled up to the elbows? How is it known that it is a 'bottle'? How is it known that the 'hairline' that's seen is how it seems?

What if it wasn't a shirt with sleeves rolled up and it was a dress with short sleeves? What if the 'hairline' was caused by the wearing of a headscarf? Just a thought.

Here is a frame from Weigman in which some of the woman have 'short sleeves' and some are wearing 'headscarfs'.

Wiegman_Weisberg_Archive.jpg

I'm not saying that proves anything of course...

 

 

 

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