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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


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1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:
10 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

....PM could be a woman who is wearing a headscarf which would 'hide' the 'customary' long hair...

Good point. I'll have to take another look at the films.


It really was a good point. It seemed so to me, anyway. But I quickly ruled it out to my satisfaction.

If PM is a woman wearing a headscarf, she wears her scarf very tight. And she has no bangs... she pulls her hair back tightly. Oddly, she doesn't bother to hide her receding hairline with the scarf. What woman wouldn't do that?

Conclusion: If PM is a woman, she is pulling her hair back very tightly and is not wearing a scarf. Not exactly a 1960s style.

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6 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

My view that Prayer Man does not hold anything in his hands during Darnell's film and I therefore am not obliged to e.g., draw contours around the alleged object.

But you ARE obliged to explain why PM keeps his hands up like that when, according to you, he isn't holding anything!

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2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:


It really was a good point. It seemed so to me, anyway. But I quickly ruled it out to my satisfaction.

If PM is a woman wearing a headscarf, she wears her scarf very tight. And she has no bangs... she pulls her hair back tightly. Oddly, she doesn't bother to hide her receding hairline with the scarf. What woman wouldn't do that?

Conclusion: If PM is a woman, she is pulling her hair back very tightly and is not wearing a scarf. Not exactly a 1960s style.

Fair points Sandy fair points...

Fundamentally it comes down to the 'quality' of the image, as I said previously " the frames that we are looking at have been 'lightened' and who knows what else has been done to them (innocently, of course. ;) ) to bring out as much 'detail' as possible"  - thus it's difficult to draw an accurate conclusion. Nowt wrong with trying though. ;)

Setting aside the look of PM though, it still remains that there are 2 females who stood on the steps, corroborated by other people on the steps, whose locations have yet to be identified.

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9 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Setting aside the look of PM though, it still remains that there are 2 females who stood on the steps, corroborated by other people on the steps, whose locations have yet to be identified.

Don't forget, they could have changed positions. They could even have been standing out on he road with the others when the spectators were filmed.

Here's a case in point: I've been reading a lot of testimony regarding Shelley and Lovelady on the steps. So far I've seen testimony that Lovelady was on the landing, or some steps down. I've seen testimony that Shelley and Lovelady were on the steps, and at the bottom of the steps. And other testimony that they and others left the steps and crossed the extension t get a better look.

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52 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Don't forget, they could have changed positions.

Of course, between the time of the shots and the Darnell clip (approx. 30 seconds) they could have changed positions. Somewhat besides the point though...

52 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

They could even have been standing out on he road with the others when the spectators were filmed.

Not at the time of the shots though... both Sanders and Stanton put themselves on the steps at the time of the shots!

Sanders said she was on the top step at the time beside Stanton, and Stanton says she was with Sanders, Williams, Shelley and Lovelady.

*At the time of the shots (as per the Altgens6/Weigman frame) we can see Williams, Shelley and Lovelady. What reason is there that we can't see Sanders or Stanton there? Perhaps, because they were standing out of sight in Altgens6 and standing in the 'darkened' area of Wiegman frame.

Here is the list of all the people that said they were on the steps at the time of the shots - Davis, McCully, Dean, Reese, Sanders, Stanton, Jones, Frazier, Lovelady, Molina, Shelley, Williams.

The Altgens6 and Wiegman frame are close enough to each other and close enough in time to the shots to say that the following have been identified as being visible on the steps at the time of the shots - Davis, McCully, Dean, Reese, Jones, Lovelady, Molina, Shelley, Williams.

At the time of the shots then Sanders, Stanton and Frazier are all unseen. Why are they all unseen? They must be standing in the 'darkened' corner...

*By the time of the Darnell frame (approx. 30 seconds later) Davis, McCully, Dean, Reese, Molina, Williams can all still be seen in relatively the same position. It is said that Lovelady and Shelley by this time have left (I know your objections on that point ;) ) and Jones has left (seen running across the road to the 'traffic lights pole'). So that's all of the ones seen at the time of the shots accounted for. In the Darnell frame Frazier is now seen (presumably after having moved out of the 'shadows'.

That just leaves Sanders and Stanton then.

At the time of the shots neither are visible, and by the time of the Darnell clip neither are visible. Both were on the steps at the time of the shots - that's the important bit though - both were on the steps at the time of the shots.

Sanders did say that she stayed on the steps a 'moment' and then went to the island for a 'moment' before returning - could her leaving have happened within the 30 seconds after the shots before Darnell caught the steps? Possibly. But it could have been after also! Or she could be in the process of leaving. It is unknown.

Stanton on the other hand...

 

 

Edited by Alistair Briggs
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On headscarves, I wonder if a woman working in the TSBD would put on a headscarf just to go out on the top of the steps. The women wearing headscarves are out on the street.

It does appear that if PM was a woman, Sarah Stanton, she was not exactly in style. But I think about Miss Boyd. In the late 1950s, early 60s, she was a teacher in my high school. She was an old maid, built like a wrestler, and wore her hair short like a man's. Unusual, to be sure, but it's certainly possible that the office worker Sarah Stanton, like Miss Boyd, was not a glamorous lady.

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Ron:

with all due respect to your 4954 posts and being a Forum member since 2004, I view your last message as inappropriate.

Maybe you should go to Amazon.com and order yourself a sense of humor.

 

 

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23 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

As per where Prayer Man stood, you can check my earlier analysis: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/  . This article tests only two options (Prayer Man 5'2'' on the top landing and Prayer Man 5'9'' standing in the very front of the top landing with one leg on the step below) and using a low-resolution manikin whose pose could not be adjusted too well, However, the article lists all the useful markers which define Prayer Man's height and location. I work on a more advanced version using a much better manikin which I have elaborated in Poser 11. The new manikin allows the arms, head position and similar to be modeled very accurately.

The best way to have done this in real world fashion would have been to have gone to the Plaza and by using Darnell's line of sight - another person could have stood approximately where Prayer-Man is and posed in a number of ways for comparisons. Some of us have used to solve several issues in the Plaza this way. In fact, the area where Prayer man is standing is so small that the margin or error is minimized. Find two reference points and use someone Lee's build and height and have them turn much like Prayer-Man is seen. If the difference is great, then Prayer-Man being Oswald is a problem.

 

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Here is a list of 4 of the people who stated they were on the steps at the time of the shots and who they 'testified' to being 'with' at the time.

Frazier - Shelley/Lovelady/Stanton
Shelley - Lovelady/Frazier/Stanton
Lovelady - Shelley/Stanton
Stanton - Shelley/Lovelady/Sanders

With that in mind;

Here is a quote from an interview with Buell Wesley Frazier.

(33minutes onward in the video below)

He has just been asked if he saw Oswald:

Quote

“I did. Ehm…. this was I don’t know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to ehm… some of the people Bill Shelly and Billy Lovelady they went down to the triple underpass, before they went down there a lady come by, a woman came by and she was crying and said that somebody had shot The President. And so we looked bewildered and  I turned to Sarah and she said she said somebody had shot The President. And I said I thought that was what she said. She said she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes and I walked down to the first  step to where Billy was standing on the bottom of the steps and I looked around and it was just total chaos there and then from there I started to go down and see if I could find ehm Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady and there was so much chaos down there that I said well I better go back to work, go back to the steps and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps and then I walked out to the corner of the building where Houston comes up to the side of the building and I was talking to someone, a lady,  and I looked to my left and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book building was Lee Oswald. So he’d come around of the docks and he walks up and I am taking to this lady. He didn’t say anything and ehm.. he crosses Houston, I watch him cross Houston as I was talking to the lady and gets over to the other side of Houston and then he crosses Elm. And somebody said something to me and I turned and he was halfway across the street and when I turned he was gone in the crowd. I don’t know what happened to him. But I didn’t worry too much about that because ehm…there were several places around there where you can go and eat a sandwich. And I remember asking him that morning when he was riding with me. Where is your lunch?  And he said oh I will buy of the truck today.”

Frazier is saying that he saw Oswald, not at the time of the shots, not even close to the time of the shots, but 'minutes' later; whilst Frazier had moved to the corner of the building on Houston...

... of real note though is who Frazier said was standing beside him that he spoke to. ;)

Also of note is what Frazier says about after seeing Oswald walk across the street minutes later, he says he returned to the building, went to the basement, ate his lunch, and then there was the roll call of employees...

 

Edited by Alistair Briggs
Adding full quote in.... adding video...
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On 2/14/2017 at 5:53 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Ron, I just put that 'quote' from you above here, so that you would get a notification about this post, in case it passes you by. ;) Regards.

 

Here is an image I found on Google of the Altgens 6 (top) and Weigman frame (bottom) on which someone else has put the letters A to G on to  match up those people. One has to consider the difference in perspective of where each image was taken (they were both taken at relatively at the same time).

(NB: the C in the Altgens 6 should probably be placed more to the right hand side as we look at it and more to 'beneath' the A).

normal_16832.jpg

A = Molina
B = Williams
C = Dean
D = Reese
E = Shelley
F = Lovelady
G = Jones
(NB: Frazier is not seen in these images because he is too much in the 'shade')

As we move on let us say that;
H = Frazier
I = Davis
J = McCully

At this junction here is the Couch/Darnell sync from which the 'Darnell frame' comes from. It is approx 30 seconds after the time of the 'Altgens6/Weigman frame' picture.

darnellcouchsync24fpsa6kkb.gif

Couple of things to look out for there. First the two people walking away are claimed to be Shelley and Lovelady (*although there is some doubt about that) and secondly the man that arrives at the 'traffic light pole' is Jones.

Here is a quick image I knocked up of the Darnell frame on which I have put the letters on to match the people from the 'Altgens 6/Weigman frame' picture.

identification1.jpg

A (Molina), B (Williams), C (Dean) and D (Reese) haven't really moved that much in the previous 30 seconds. As mentioned above* E (Shelley) and F (Lovelady) have moved away from the steps and G (Jones) has made his way across to the 'traffic lights pole'. H (Frazier) has now 'come out of the shadows'.

Based on the location that Davis said she stood (on the lower steps) with McCully, and McCully said she was with Davis, I have I as Davis and J as McCully (but it might be the other way round to be honest).

*In the Darnell frame you can see 3 people in the position that Jones had been 30 seconds previously. None of them were in that position at the time of the shots, and from looking at the following gif an argument can be made that both 'all black' and 'all white' people are returning to the building (ie had been outwith that vicinity at the time of the shots. As for 'white head' person (Who appears to be facing down and talking to 'all black person), I don't know who it is or where they came from to be honest - (some people have made the claim that it is Lovelady and he hadn't left the steps by that time, but that could be a moot point in terms of this discussion anyway.)

Prayermangif3.gif

 

It has to be stated that the 'Prayer Man' figure is viewable in both the Wiegman frame and the Darnell clip.

From looking at the photographic evidence of Altgens 6, Wiegman Frame and Darnell Frame, and cross referencing it with the 'testimony' of those who said they were on the steps at the time  it's reasonable to say that 10 of them have been identified; Molina, Williams, Dean, Reese, Shelley, Lovelady, Jones, Frazier, Davis and McCully.

Who is left over? Stanton and Sanders

If we look at what each of them said as to where they stood;

Stanton: says she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady and Williams.
Sanders: says she took up a position on the top steps and that Stanton was standing next to her.

*Point of contention: Sanders said she was on the top step at the 'East' entrance!

*A point of interest; Molina: says he stood at the railings on the 'east side' of the building but does not recall who stood beside him but does know that Sanders viewed the motorcade.

As we look at the photographic evidence of the steps, the 'east side' is the right hand side as we look at it, and the 'west side' is the left hand side as we look at it.

Molina was certainly correct about being on the 'east side' as that is backed up by the photographic evidence, Sanders can't be beside him because he mentions her after saying that he does not recall who stood beside him! From the photographic evidence the two people that stood 'beside' him look to be Williams (up left as we look at it) and either Davis or McCully (down right as we look a it). So when Sanders said she was at the 'east' entrance that is not backed up by the photographic evidence...

... what if then, when Sanders said 'east' she actually meant the opposite side from where Molina is. How could she make such an error? Look at a compass, which side is East as you look at it? To the right hand side! What if, then, Sanders, when she said she was on the 'east' side she meant the 'right hand side' (from her perspecitve - facing out) and thus she was in real terms standing on the 'west side' of the steps.

 


Alistair,

I want to thank you for the work you put into this.

I wasn't really following your work because my interests at the time lied elsewhere. But then you dug up a piece of information that supports a hypothesis I'd been pondering. When I saw that, and read your work (that I quote here), it gave me the extra nudge I needed to spend time presenting my hypothesis.

Bottom line is that your work made mine fruitful, AND a lot easier. Thanks!

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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17 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Bottom line is that your work made mine fruitful, AND a lot easier. Thanks!

Funnily enough, I did have you in mind partially when I wrote it... and especially with this part:

" As for 'white head' person (Who appears to be facing down and talking to 'all black person), I don't know who it is or where they came from to be honest - (some people have made the claim that it is Lovelady and he hadn't left the steps by that time, but that could be a moot point in terms of this discussion anyway.) "

Whilst I don't believe it is Lovelady, I have no real objection to it being him either. The reason I mention that it could be a moot point in terms of 'this' discussion is whether or not it is him there are still 2 people unidentified in the the photos... one of which there is a possible explanation for which I mentioned in a previous comment;

"Sanders did say that she stayed on the steps a 'moment' and then went to the island for a 'moment' before returning - could her leaving have happened within the 30 seconds after the shots before Darnell caught the steps? Possibly. But it could have been after also! Or she could be in the process of leaving. It is unknown."

I've run a lot through my head about different permetations, and as I said, I have no real objections to 'white head' person being Lovelady, I also have considered that it might be Sanders on her way to leaving. I just don't know.

I mentioned on your other thread that I was trying to match up people on the street in Weigman to who can be seen moving about in Darnell, not necessarily to name them but just to match who can be matched to narrow down who might be where... it's not easy. lol I was pouring through all the TSBD employees statements about where they were and who they were with - if only they had been asked to describe what they had been wearing things would be so much easier. lol

Anyway, I suppose it just goes to show that even when people disagree on things they can be helpful to each other. ;)

 

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