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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


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4 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Roy Edward Lewis was inside the vestibule.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317&relPageId=691&search=roy_edward lewis

Is there anything other than his statement where he says he was standing inside the entrance during the shooting because that could be interpreted a couple of different ways. And while he said he knew Lee Harvey Oswald and that Lee was not with him - he says nothing about seeing Lee on the other side of the glass at the front entrance either.

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On 2/23/2017 at 5:31 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

From which place then Oswald reached the second floor lunchroom and which stairs did he use?

That is a mystery - isn't it. Nor does anyone know when he went to the 2nd floor lunchroom. I believe Baker said that he saw someone move as he glanced through the glass of the outer door who was about to enter the second door into the lunchroom.

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7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

could you please be more specific as to the witness lurking in the first floor vestibule during the shooting - who was this person and can we read his/her testimony. I have just posted notes on the well-known testimonies of people who in contrast to your witness saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the first floor prior to the shooting. Thus, it is not a sort of wishful thinking of those doubting the second floor encounter, rather it is a view supported by the witness testimonies.

Aside from Lewis who Kamp mentions - It was Piper who was standing where they make coffee at the end of a counter when after the shots he started seeing people enter the building. A police officer being the first person through the door and then Roy Truly.

People did see Oswald on the first floor - doing his job.

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1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Aside from Lewis who Kamp mentions - It was Piper who was standing where they make coffee at the end of a counter when after the shots he started seeing people enter the building. A police officer being the first person through the door and then Roy Truly.

People did see Oswald on the first floor - doing his job.

Bill:

I see it differently. Piper was sitting next to some window in the office space area of the first floor during the shooting. He could not see anyone in the vestibule because the vestibule was separated from the open space by a wall. When Piper went back to the north of the first floor, Oswald, if he was in the vestibule, could not be seen by Piper. So, Piper may have been speaking the truth about not seeing Lee Harvey Oswald, however, this has no bearing to Oswald's presence in the vestibule/doorway. 

Roy Lewis's testimony is not conclusive at all:

"On November 22, 1963 at approximately 12 :25,PM I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building to watch President John F . Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade . I heard three shots fired from somewhere above me, but was unable to see the person who fired them "

"The inside of the front entrance" could be both the vestibule or one of the lower steps. Roy Lewis was interviewed two years ago, and it seems clear from that interview that he was outside, maybe somewhere around the lower east part of the doorway, or just in front of that corner. He was somehow guided by the interviewer to admit that he was the Afro-American gentleman in the lower west corner of the doorway which very likely was not the truth. Anyway, Lewis did not say that he would be standing behind the glass door during the shooting,  

The relevant instant in this interview starts at: 54.18.

Thus, neither Piper nor Lewis provides any testimony excluding Oswald's presence in the vestibule before and in the doorway during the shooting.

Now, we still have Shelley's, Arnold's and Jarman+Norman's testimonies pinning Oswald to the first floor in instants of the period from the noon onward.  

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bart:

I am at loss here: Lewis came out late, but was he out on steps or in front of steps, or still inside the building behind the glass door during the shooting?

Mary-Ferrell-Chronologies-November-22-19

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2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

It's been posted many times.

Show me where the evidence is for that assertion, not your beliefs. Where did Baker and/or Truly say so!

Try not to squirm out of this,  deliver or retract!

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2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I can think of a worse place for someone to have their thumb than in their mouth. So perhaps your rants would be more fitting at ROKC.

I make that decision not you.

Why don't you join ROKC, see how that pans out...... :)

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46 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Mary-Ferrell-Chronologies-November-22-19

Thanks, Bart, for posting this. Here is a paragraph from Larry Sneed's "No More Silence" which can be attributed to Roy Lewis:

"Due to my lack of excitement, I was one of the last ones out of the building before the motorcade arrived. That's why I wasn't outside near the street like most everybody else. Instead, when I came out, I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door." 

and:

."...  The people down in front of me hit the ground then everybody started running toward the grassy knoll. Apparently the people assumed that whoever was doing the shooting might have been over there so I followed them. But before we could get far, a policeman stopped us and told us to go back into the building ans wait...."

I read this narrative as indicating that Lewis could only be outside the building just before and after the shooting.

I guess we need to trace the origin of the T15 reference in the chart you posted. Are 22:621 and 24:259 the volumes:pages of the Warren Report, and where does this chart come from? These discrepancies are actually quite informative.

 

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49 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

I make that decision not you.

Why don't you join ROKC, see how that pans out...... :)

I choose not to join a foul mouthed low-brow site. Blame it on how I was raised.   :)

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2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

I see it differently. Piper was sitting next to some window in the office space area of the first floor during the shooting. He could not see anyone in the vestibule because the vestibule was separated from the open space by a wall. When Piper went back to the north of the first floor, Oswald, if he was in the vestibule, could not be seen by Piper. So, Piper may have been speaking the truth about not seeing Lee Harvey Oswald, however, this has no bearing to Oswald's presence in the vestibule/doorway.

Piper%20saw%20Truly%20and%20Baker_zpsw8g

 

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

 

 

Mr. BELIN - What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.

Mr. BAKER - We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - We went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, I would say, the southeast corner of the Building there where we entered it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear, back there.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.
Mr. BELIN - All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?
Mr. BAKER - He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.
Mr. BELIN - Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; it didn't.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."
Mr. BELIN - How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. BAKER - It seemed like he did it twice.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - I said let's take the stairs.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this elevator.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And we went up them.

 

Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there
Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.

Doesn't sound like Patrolman Baker is talking about the Domino room and the meeting with Oswald came after they started up the stairs. And while this meeting was taking place on the second floor - not a single person claimed to have seen Lee Oswald on the first floor - or standing outside the entrance with Buell Frazier.

 

Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

 

Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?
Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.
Mr. BELIN. What did you call?
Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator." Those boys understand that language.
Mr. BELIN. What does that mean?
Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down.
Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that?
Mr. TRULY. Two times.
Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice I believe, and called up for the elevator twice.

 

Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway.
Mr. BELIN. Could you again follow--from Point B, could you show which way you went? All right.
Mr. TRULY. What is this here?
Mr. BELIN. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Okay. And where was this officer at that time?
Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway.

 

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.

Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

 

Mr. BELIN - Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you know Mr. Truly?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see him, do you remember, while you were eating your lunch, come in the building?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police.

 

These witnesses seem consistent in their descriptions as to what they witnessed in my view.

Edited by Bill Miller
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15 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Piper%20saw%20Truly%20and%20Baker_zpsw8g

Bill:

we speak about different time instants, not about the time when Baker and Truly already passed the small counter door. During the shooting, Piper was sitting near one of the south windows, and he was there also just before the shooting. Oswald would be already in the vestibule or on his way to the vestibule from the domino room while Piper was trying to watch the motorcade without much success. Oswald entered the doorway from the vestibule at some point in such a way that he could be captured in Wiegman's film; Piper was still sitting at the window and was not able to see him at all.

After the shooting, Oswald stayed in the doorway for tens of seconds pondering what the shooting meant for him (as did Frazier), entered the storage room next to the front stairs (seen by Occhus Campbell at +2 min), checked the rifle and not finding it where it was supposed to be, he decided to leave at once being certain he has been just framed. Whilst in the storage room or when leaving the vestibule after checking the storage room, he was encountered by Baker and Truly. At that time, Piper was "right there where they make coffee" still unable to spot Lee Harvey Oswald.

I hope it makes sense.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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10 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 Oswald would be already in the vestibule or on his way to the vestibule from the domino room while Piper was trying to watch the motorcade without much success. Oswald entered the doorway from the vestibule at some point in such a way that he could be captured in Wiegman's film; Piper was still sitting at the window and was not able to see him at all.

Absolutely no one saw Oswald in the domino room - walking around the first floor - or standing outside with Frazier (Lee's car-pool buddy) - Lovelady - or Shelley - or anyone else who knew who Lee was just prior or during - or immediately after the shooting.

PS:  I am going to try and find the name of the fellow who said that he recalled Lee wearing dark or black pants the day of the shooting. I was reading other witness statements and then any names of people that was mentioned by other witnesses when I stumbled across it. Been busy, but I will stay after it because I really read it.

Edited by Bill Miller
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1 minute ago, Bill Miller said:

Absolutely no one saw Oswald in the domino room - walking around the first floor - or standing outside with Frazier (Lee's car-pool buddy) - Lovelady - or Shelley - or anyone else who knew who Lee was.

PS:  I am going to try and find the name of the fellow who said that he recalled Lee wearing dark or black pants the day of the shooting. I was reading other witness statements and then any names of people that was mentioned by other witnesses when I stumbled across it. Been busy, but I will stay after it because I really read it.

We have the notes from the interrogation. Oswald himself claimed that he was in domino room, and that two men, Junior and Norman, briefly entered the domino room. One, maybe both, of them confirmed that they had seen someone in domino room. How could Oswald know that these two men entered the domino room unless he was in that room? Jarman and Norman were scared to death to say whom they saw, and conveniently said that they did not remember. 

Carolyn Arnold was convinced about seeing Oswald in the first floor vestibule. Shelley also saw Oswald on the first floor near the telephone around the noon.

I find these testimonies truthful and they are the best what we have given the paucity of details about Oswald's whereabouts after 12noon. Warren Commission certainly did not wish anyone saying that Oswald was anywhere  besides the sixth floor prior to the shooting.

As per who was willing to testify about Oswald whereabouts, the answer is that no one. Everybody was scared to death. If you would like to understand what treatment was offered to witnesses potentially seeing things opposing the official line, please watch this recording. It was much worse in Dallas in 1963.

 

As per the colour of Oswald's slacks: you can start by first refuting Marina's testimony. She clearly identified the slacks under oath.

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15 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

As per who was willing to testify about Oswald whereabouts, the answer is that no one. Everybody was scared to death. If you would like to understand what treatment was offered to witnesses potentially seeing things opposing the official line, please watch this recording. It was much worse in Dallas in 1963.

I do not buy that witnesses were too scared as I believe that theory has become a convenient excuse for some people. If anyone was with Lee or saw him nearby, then they would have no reason to fear him by offering an alibi for him. And once he was dead - there was no reason to fear him then either.

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Bill:

the witnesses did no fear HIM (Oswald), they feared of the Dallas Police Department and the FBI agents.

Joseph McBride pointed to the machinery of the Dallas Police and the District Attorney in his book Into the Nightmare. In the story "The Thin Blue Line" one can see how accused people and witnesses were treated to yield one desired outcome. The well known officer from JFK investigation Gus Rose is one of the key players in this story:

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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