PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 9:39 AM, Bill Miller said:

 ...Lee Oswald did not appear to me to be so stupid as to use his own gun which could be traced back to him with the idea that all he had to do is say he didn't shoot anybody. Nothing about Lee being a lone gunman at that point ever made any sense to me.

Bill,

I agree with this -- however -- Lee Harvey Oswald was apparently stupid enough to hand over his rifle to a mutual acquaintance of his and Gerry Patrick Hemming on the morning of 11/22/1963  (says A.J. Weberman).

There was no "Lone Gunman."  There was no CIA plot.  There was, however, a Radical Right plot centered in Dallas that extended to New Orleans and 544 Camp Street, that cross-referenced plotters out to kill Fidel Castro.  

IMHO, the Kill-Fidel plot was LHO's actual plot, and how he was fooled into becoming the Patsy of the secret Radical Right plot to kill JFK. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

23 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

...People did see Oswald on the first floor - doing his job.

Yes, but not during the time-frames in question.  Starting from noon time, when the boys left the 6th floor, racing the two elevators down, and LHO called down to them to send one of the elevators back up to the 6th floor -- who saw LHO on the 1st floor?

I count nobody.   Unless I'm wrong, then LHO took the elevator to the 2nd floor, and stayed there alone until stopped by Baker and Truly.  What, specifically, did I miss?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

19 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

We have the notes from the interrogation. Oswald himself claimed that he was in domino room, and that two men, Junior and Norman, briefly entered the domino room. One, maybe both, of them confirmed that they had seen someone in domino room. How could Oswald know that these two men entered the domino room unless he was in that room?  ...

Again, Andrej, the notes from the Fritz interrogation are compromised because they were produced WEEKS after the events.  There is no chain of evidence.  Fritz & Co. had every motive, means and opportunity to lie about what LHO said during the last hour of his life.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

...Baker's second floor encounter with Lee Harvey Oswald is one of the high-voltage questions. While you assume that the Report is basically a source of truthful information (within the limits of human memory) and therefore Baker's encounter had to happen as described, other researchers assume that this is actually where the truth needed to be suppressed in the Warren Report else the preconceived lone-nut theory would collapse...

Andrej,

It's not about the Either/Or approach of accepting or rejecting everything in the Warren Report.   It's about correctly identifying who was telling the truth and who was lying.   There were 488 witnesses, so it's a big task.

Bill and I both accept the Baker-Truly story.  You don't.

However, you accept the Fritz & Co. story.   I don't.

It's a matter of criterion for truth -- I really don't see how anybody can believe Captain Fritz' account of what LHO said that day.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

23 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

I agree with this -- however --  There was no CIA plot.  There was, however, a Radical Right plot centered in Dallas that extended to New Orleans and 544 Camp Street, that cross-referenced plotters out to kill Fidel Castro.  

IMHO, this was LHO's actual plot, and how he was seduced into becoming the Patsy of the secret Radical Right plot to kill JFK. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I am not seeing a plot masterminded by Walker, DPD, Birchers, And Minutemen, that happens to reach out to 544 Camp St, N.O.L.A, and Guy Banister, snagging LHO; but it has nothing to do with the Mafia, O.N.I, CIA, and commercial shipping interests; and Jim Garrison was completely wrong about his Clay Shaw Case.

Cheers,

Michael

Edited March 8, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

53 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I am not seeing a plot masterminded by Walker, DPD, Birchers, And Minutemen, that happens to reach out to 544 Camp St, N.O.L.A, and Guy Banister, snagging LHO; but it has nothing to do with the Mafia, O.N.I, CIA, and commercial shipping interests; and Jim Garrison was completely wrong about his Clay Shaw Case.

Cheers,

Michael

Yet that's exactly what I'm seeing, Michael.

May I refer you to the excellent recent book by Dr. Jeffrey Caufield: General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

What the brilliant Jim Garrison missed about the Clay Shaw case, IMHO, was that the great bulk of players at 544 Camp Street were mainly out to kill Fidel Castro.

Even David Atlee Phillips was aware of this, if we may use his novelette, The AMLASH Legacy (1988) as evidence.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Ray Mitcham]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

No I don't see that as a problem. I remember entering the 6th Floor Museum and calling the first floor the second floor to which Gary Mack corrected me. And as I have said before - if you take the stairs ... it takes two levels of stairs to make one floor. So yes, I could see Patrolman Baker, having never been in the TSBD before, and having his mind on scanning for a gunman could cause him to be in error by saying the third floor over the second. The important thing seems to me is that he described a set of doors that led into the Lunchroom. So unless there was a Lunchroom on the third or fourth floor that had a set of doors like those found on the second floor, then Baker guessed at which floor he was on when he said he saw a man through the glass window walking away from him before he entered the Lunchroom. Baker was certainly consistent about seeing a man walking away from him and how that man turned around and walked back towards Baker when the Patrolman called out for him to "come here".

 

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.
Mr. BELIN - Where were you at the time you hollered?
Mr. BAKER - I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.
Mr. BELIN - He walked back toward you then?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

 

Baker's 11/22/63 Affidavit

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me"

So unless there is another Lunchroom on the third floor with a set of doors (one having a 2 x 2 foot window in it), then Baker merely got the floor number wrong.

 

Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.
Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?
Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.

Bill, in Baker's first day affidavit, as you have quoted above, he stated that he saw a man walking away from the stairway. He called him and  he turned back toward him. Nowhere in that statement does he mention  any doors to any lunchroom, so how you can say "So unless there is another Lunchroom on the third floor with a set of doors (one having a 2 x 2 foot window in it), then Baker merely got the floor number wrong." escapes me. You are reading into Baker's affidavit something which isn't there.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Andrej Stancak]

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Yes, but not during the time-frames in question.  Starting from noon time, when the boys left the 6th floor, racing the two elevators down, and LHO called down to them to send one of the elevators back up to the 6th floor -- who saw LHO on the 1st floor?

I count nobody.   Unless I'm wrong, then LHO took the elevator to the 2nd floor, and stayed there alone until stopped by Baker and Truly.  What, specifically, did I miss?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul:

1. Bill Shelley saw Oswald on the first floor allegedly 10-15 minutes before 12, however, it would be later than this time because at that time Oswald was still on one of the upper floors:

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date and the time the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.

2. Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the first floor vestibule at 12.15 or 12.25:

Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM.

11/26/1963 at Dallas, Texas, File # DL 89–43, Special Agent Richard E. Harrison

3. Oswald's own report according to Bookhout and Hosty conjoint report, dated November 23.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=637

"OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the second floor where the Coca–Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca–Cola for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building. … he then went home by bus and changed his clothes. "

4. Cpt. Fritz testimony for the Warren Commission:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=624

"I asked him what part of the building was he in at the time the President was shot, and he said he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor".

5. Junior Jarman: confirmed that Oswald used to have his lunch on the first floor:

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
Mr. BALL - Is that the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - That is the first floor.

 

Then he surprisingly slipped the information that he was with Oswald on the first floor:

Mr. BALL - What time did you quit for lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

....

Mr. BALL. Then what did you
Mr. JARMAN - Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop.
Mr. BALL - Where is the lounge?
Mr. JARMAN - On the second floor.
Mr. BALL - On the second floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?
Mr. JARMAN - Came back and went down to the window.
Mr. BALL - What window?
Mr. JARMAN - Where Oswald and I was talking.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Between those two rows of bins.
Mr. BALL - Where Oswald and you had been talking?
Mr. BALL - What did you do there?
Mr. JARMAN - I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.

Councel Ball must have been shaken by Junior's bold revelation and he wisely did not elaborate on that point but rather evaded. It went well according to the plan, with Jarman denying seeing Oswald and arguing with himself:

Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.

6. Oswald saw Jarman and Norman as they returned from Elm via back door:

Cpt Fritz:  Oswald said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called `Junior' and the other was a little short man whose name he didn't know".

FBI agent Bookhout:  "Oswald had eaten lunch in the lunchroom . . . alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called `Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize"

SS Inspector Thomas Kelley:  "Said he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as `Junior,' a colored boy, and the other was a little short negro boy".

Now, these two men indeed were returning from Elm via back door. How could Owald know about these two men passing by if not sitting in the domino room?

7. Eddie Piper's testimony:

    Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?
    Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o'clock.
    Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o'clock?
    Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.
    Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
    Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up  or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.
    Mr. BALL. The first window on the first floor?

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Alistair Briggs]

30 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Then he surprisingly slipped the information that he was with Oswald on the first floor:

Mr. BALL - What time did you quit for lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

....

Mr. BALL. Then what did you
Mr. JARMAN - Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop.
Mr. BALL - Where is the lounge?
Mr. JARMAN - On the second floor.
Mr. BALL - On the second floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?
Mr. JARMAN - Came back and went down to the window.
Mr. BALL - What window?
Mr. JARMAN - Where Oswald and I was talking.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Between those two rows of bins.
Mr. BALL - Where Oswald and you had been talking?
Mr. BALL - What did you do there?
Mr. JARMAN - I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.

Councel Ball must have been shaken by Junior's bold revelation and he wisely did not elaborate on that point but rather evaded. It went well according to the plan, with Jarman denying seeing Oswald and arguing with himself:

Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.

 

The time that Jarman was talking with Oswald on the first floor was between 9:30am and 10am!

There is really nothing surprising at all about it, and nope no 'bold revelation' and nope not 'arguing with himself'. lol

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

There are lots of postings that can be viewed as a waste of time - some even being your own. You reference a video on Prayer Man in which you called the Newman's the "Wiegman's" and no one called the video a waste of time because you misspoke. As far as my mentioning the coke - I have read that somewhere and may have wrongly attributed it to WC testimony, which still doesn't take away from the other testimony I posted pertaining too Oswald being met on the second floor. Being a hypocrite does not make your theory correct.

Out comes the apologist attitude inside a deep state of denial.

You are starting to sound like Doyle..............

There is more evidence refuting your wishful 2nd floor lunchroom encounter than substantiating it.

You have been misled and you have joined that flock.

Too bad you cannot see it.

edit:  Well done Ray and Andrej, who wipe the floor with MIller's assertions and his top layer only of some of the evidence. LNers do this as well.

 

But one can only waste THAT much time on this deep state of denial.

 

I am almost done with the update on the 2nd floor clusterf*ck, roughly 30 odd pages extra, should be out in 2-3 weeks.

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Andrej Stancak]

30 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

The time that Jarman was talking with Oswald on the first floor was between 9:30am and 10am!

There is really nothing surprising at all about it, and nope no 'bold revelation' and nope not 'arguing with himself'. lol

 

Yes, you may be right and I may be wrong, it seems like a continuation of their morning encounter. Thanks.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Bill Miller]

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Yes, but not during the time-frames in question.  Starting from noon time, when the boys left the 6th floor, racing the two elevators down, and LHO called down to them to send one of the elevators back up to the 6th floor -- who saw LHO on the 1st floor?

I count nobody.   Unless I'm wrong, then LHO took the elevator to the 2nd floor, and stayed there alone until stopped by Baker and Truly.  What, specifically, did I miss?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

There were people asked if they saw Lee Oswald on the first floor when he worked his normal job. I didn't mean to make anyone think he was seen on the first floor after the guys left him up on the 6th floor when they went to lunch.

[Alistair Briggs]

12 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Yes, you may be right and I may be wrong, it seems like a continuation of their morning encounter. Thanks.

I don't know if you will be able to help me with something... where is the location that Jarman talked with Oswald on the first floor?

Regards

[Bill Miller]

3 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Bill, in Baker's first day affidavit, as you have quoted above, he stated that he saw a man walking away from the stairway. He called him and  he turned back toward him. Nowhere in that statement does he mention  any doors to any lunchroom, so how you can say "So unless there is another Lunchroom on the third floor with a set of doors (one having a 2 x 2 foot window in it), then Baker merely got the floor number wrong." escapes me. You are reading into Baker's affidavit something which isn't there.

Ray,

I understood it that the stairway was close to the Lunchroom and Baker merely used the stairway as a locator for the direction Oswald was walking away from. That was something that was important because had Lee of just ran down the stairs - he seemed rather calm and relaxed when Baker was studying his face,

[Bill Miller]

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

I agree with this -- however -- Lee Harvey Oswald was apparently stupid enough to hand over his rifle to a mutual acquaintance of his and Gerry Patrick Hemming on the morning of 11/22/1963  (says A.J. Weberman).

There was no "Lone Gunman."  There was no CIA plot.  There was, however, a Radical Right plot centered in Dallas that extended to New Orleans and 544 Camp Street, that cross-referenced plotters out to kill Fidel Castro.  

IMHO, the Kill-Fidel plot was LHO's actual plot, and how he was fooled into becoming the Patsy of the secret Radical Right plot to kill JFK. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I have never heard of Lee handing his gun over to anyone on the day of the assassination. Is that something you read in a conspiracy book?  If he had, then that would have been the first thing that came out of my mouth when in custody and yet it doesn't appear Lee did that. And again .... the rifle that was found on the sixth floor was one that was 4.2 inches longer than the one Lee had bought earlier in the year.