James DiEugenio Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Sayonara. To be continued. Edited February 13, 2016 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Would you? Personally want to know more about the Essex, it's crew, the Skyhawks and their roll in the Bay of Pigs 1961? Here are some of the surviving crew members of that day, and how to get in contact with them, I do it all the time, contact people that is. I like to expand my knowledge and not rely off documentation. Happy hunting! http://www.hullnumber.com/crew1.php?cm=CV-9 Scott, Commander Mitchell C. Griffin was the CO for VA-34 at this time. I have a contact request for him. I'm quite familiar with these associations and all. I spent quite a bit of time tracking down the finalists for the 1959 Project Mercury astronaut selection. Everyone I dealt with on dozens of these sites was exceptionally helpful. The problem is that you are dealing with memories. I encountered many sincere people who were absolutely certain, but were completely wrong. This is referring to stuff that was NOT classified, so there was no question that the records were correct. The short version is you need a combination of the records AND first-hand knowledge. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 The Essex started out with 12 Skyhawks on the ship, only six flew, five got shot down, this is the secrecy they are sworn to, you see. I can tell you, I am not sworn to secrecy. You're going to have to come up with A LOT more than that if you're going to convince anyone that 5 US military jet aircraft were shot down at the BOP invasion, and it is still a secret today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Kaiser Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) The Essex started out with 12 Skyhawks on the ship, only six flew, five got shot down, this is the secrecy they are sworn to, you see. I can tell you, I am not sworn to secrecy. You're going to have to come up with A LOT more than that if you're going to convince anyone that 5 US military jet aircraft were shot down at the BOP invasion, and it is still a secret today... Tom, I can prove it, but to release his name would not be a good idea, you have to understand, this information may still be tied up in the fifth volume of the Bay of Pigs that Obama's administration has blocked, why after all this time I don't know, but you see, had this news been made public "at that time", America would have certainly screamed out for an all out war with Cuba that would have certainly dragged Russia into it. Keeping a lid on it was in the best interest of world war III. I will release his name, after he's dead, fare enough? Edited February 13, 2016 by Scott Kaiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Kaiser Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 My thoughts would be, many of the surviving members of the Bay of Pigs are still very much living, and many feel the same way about Cuba today, as they did 50 years ago, imagine if this information became public, they'd have a field day with it, so, do you suppose the government is just going to sit on that information for another 20-30 years when everyone is gone? You have me thinking, good night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 The Essex started out with 12 Skyhawks on the ship, only six flew, five got shot down, this is the secrecy they are sworn to, you see. I can tell you, I am not sworn to secrecy. You're going to have to come up with A LOT more than that if you're going to convince anyone that 5 US military jet aircraft were shot down at the BOP invasion, and it is still a secret today... Tom, I can prove it, but to release his name would not be a good idea, you have to understand, this information may still be tied up in the fifth volume of the Bay of Pigs that Obama's administration has blocked, why after all this time I don't know, but you see, had this news been made public "at that time", America would have certainly screamed out for an all out war with Cuba that would have certainly dragged Russia into it. Keeping a lid on it was in the best interest of world war III. I will release his name, after he's dead, fare enough? Scott, I'm sure you sincerely believe this to be true, and I wouldn't expect you to reveal this person's name without his permission. Now, have you REALLY considered how difficult this would be to cover up? Five aviators lost and not one USN or CIA person used that fact to PUBLICLY attack JFK for failing to invade Cuba after that? The entire Essex crew of 2,300 (and believe this - EVERY person on board that ship knew about the loss) and the aviator's families have remained silent for 65 years? If you believe that, you were never in the military either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Kaiser Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) you were never in the military either. I was Navy, before getting into a fight with my CC. Do you really believe the government would immediately go to the families and inform them of their loss during the Bay of Pigs when the Vietnam war was also going on? Ugh! You speak about memory, well, I for one have a damn good one, and can remember back to when I was four years old, and guess what. I'l also dealt with many sincere people who were absolutely certain, and were completely right. The short version is you need a combination of the records AND first-hand knowledge. Where do you suppose I got the information, I did give you a list of names to contact didn't I? Edited February 13, 2016 by Scott Kaiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Kaiser Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) This is how the government response to a crisis: The My Lai Massacre was the mass murder of 347 to 504 unarmed citizens of the Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam). They were almost entirely civilians, the majority of them women and children. The massacre was conducted by U.S. Army forces on March 16, 1968. Before being killed some of the victims were raped and sexually molested, beaten, tortured, or maimed. Some of the dead bodies were also mutilated. Six months later, Tom Glen, a 21-year-old soldier of the 11th Light Infantry Brigade, wrote a letter to General Creighton Abrams, the new overall commander of U.S. forces in Vietnam, accusing the Americal Division (and other entire units of the U.S. military) of routine and pervasive brutality against Vietnamese civilians. The letter was detailed and its contents echoed complaints received from other soldiers. Colin Powell, then a 31-year-old Army Major, was charged with investigating the letter, which did not specifically reference My Lai (Glen had limited knowledge of the events there). In his report Powell wrote: “In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent.” Powell’s handling of the assignment was later characterized by some observers as “whitewashing” the atrocities of My Lai. In May 2004, Powell, then United States Secretary of State, told CNN’s Larry King, “I mean, I was in a unit that was responsible for My Lai. I got there after My Lai happened. So, in war, these sorts of horrible things happen every now and again, but they are still to be deplored.” Edited February 13, 2016 by Scott Kaiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I was Navy, before getting into a fight with my CC.Are you saying you were kicked out, or didn't re-up? What was your Rating i.e. what did you do? Do you really believe the government would immediately go to the families and inform them of their loss during the Bay of Pigs when the Vietnam war was also going on? Ugh!Immediately? No. But is has been 55 years. If Castro shot down 5 US jets who were violating international law, he would hardly have keep silent all these years. Where do you suppose I got the information, I did give you a list of names to contact didn't I?Not that I'm aware of -- you said you could prove it but you wouldn't release the name of your source until he's deceased. What is the post number of this list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Kaiser Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Are you saying you were kicked out, or didn't re-up? What was your Rating i.e. what did you do? Does it matter? Or was answering your statement "you were never in the military either" what's important? Does it make a difference whether I was there for a period of time, or not? The fact is, my CC shouldn't have pissed me off, than when I had to go before the captain, I almost asked the captain, how the hell did you make captain? I didn't want to "re-enlist" my ASVAB scores were extremely high, I knew the captain didn't like me much, but than again, the feeling was mutual. Immediately? No. But is has been 55 years. Are you saying the American government really adheres to it's executive order of disclosing information after 50 years, and we don't have Hillary Clinton trying to run for president either. If Castro shot down 5 US jets who were violating international law, he would hardly have keep silent all these years. Who said he was? Not that I'm aware of -- you said you could prove it but you wouldn't release the name of your source until he's deceased. What is the post number of this list? #109 Edited February 13, 2016 by Scott Kaiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Scott - what's that chip - more like log - on your shoulder all about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Kaiser Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Scott - what's that chip - more like log - on your shoulder all about? I'm not sure what that means, but if has to do with me having inside information, and you don't, who really has that log on their shoulder? Listen, I told you that the American government contends only (16) planes were shot down, when in fact there were a total of (19) and some of the members of the Brigade didn't even know about the air cover. Don't get upset with me because there's information I have and you don't it just works out that way brother! By the way, Fidel Castro knew they shot down a crap load of planes, but I don't think he'd know the difference. Edited February 13, 2016 by Scott Kaiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Does it matter? I didn't want to "re-enlist".You brought it up, so it is a reasonable request. You could have said you were in the Navy and nothing further. However, the way you phrased your statement indicates you either didn't want to re-up because you didn't like it, you were not given the opportunity to re-enlist, or you got the boot. This could explain the rather LARGE chip on your shoulder. What you did and where you did it, indicates what you are familiar with. You could have served on a carrier for example, which would be relevant. If Castro shot down 5 US jets who were violating international law, he would hardly have keep silent all these years. Who said he was?Then show me a quote from one of his speeches were he castigates the US for violating international law. You certainly don't think I meant he said something behind closed doors, do you? He certainly had no problem getting press regarding the false flag B-26s he discovered. Did he not keep the dead body of one of the National Guard pilots, which was eventually released to his family? He didn't keep silent when the U-2 was downed, and his body was returned also. So why would he not do this for any of the 5 Navy pilots you say were shot down? Your post #109 is a website for the Essex. I responded that I was already communicating with Essex and VA-34 personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Kaiser Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Does it matter? I didn't want to "re-enlist".You brought it up, so it is a reasonable request. You could have said you were in the Navy and nothing further. However, the way you phrased your statement indicates you either didn't want to re-up because you didn't like it, you were not given the opportunity to re-enlist, or you got the boot. This could explain the rather LARGE chip on your shoulder.What you did and where you did it, indicates what you are familiar with. You could have served on a carrier for example, which would be relevant. If Castro shot down 5 US jets who were violating international law, he would hardly have keep silent all these years. Who said he was?Then show me a quote from one of his speeches were he castigates the US for violating international law. You certainly don't think I meant he said something behind closed doors, do you? He certainly had no problem getting press regarding the false flag B-26s he discovered. Did he not keep the dead body of one of the National Guard pilots, which was eventually released to his family? He didn't keep silent when the U-2 was downed, and his body was returned also. So why would he not do this for any of the 5 Navy pilots you say were shot down?Your post #109 is a website for the Essex. I responded that I was already communicating with Essex and VA-34 personnel. Tom, I really don't have the time to play these games with you, I'm off to my brothers sons birthday party, have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Burnham Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Scott, You post opinions as if they are facts, but when challenged to provide evidentiary support or even proof for your claims, you take offense, become increasingly sarcastic and often condescending--as if you have any reason to assume such a posture. Far from it. I find much in your postings to be rather shallow. I wasn't going to mention it, except that you are now acting superior to several respected members who have done a lot of work on this subject--much of which probably occurred before anyone ever even heard of you. Edited February 13, 2016 by Greg Burnham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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