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Swan-Song -- Math Rules


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1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said:

David,

Did you have a specific shot/limo location in mind?

I was thinking more along the lines of the height as I thought you were of the opinion a 3rd story origin was way too high...

Yet you do mention the idea of multiple Dal Tex shooters....

The top of the van is 10-12 feet it appears.... and from that angle - looking at Elm - I'd have to think the shot originated much higher up.

2nd AND 3rd floors?

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58 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I was thinking more along the lines of the height as I thought you were of the opinion a 3rd story origin was way too high...

Yet you do mention the idea of multiple Dal Tex shooters....

The top of the van is 10-12 feet it appears.... and from that angle - looking at Elm - I'd have to think the shot originated much higher up.

2nd AND 3rd floors?

I only suggest the bottom floor location for a "over the limo" miss at approx extant z152, since I can plot two endpoints (path) between bullet impact and shooter which agrees ballistically.

That said, it's possible a warning shot (lack of explanation) was fired well above his head from a higher elevation (any floor) at approx extant z152, which could still hit the grass location previously referred to. But Why?

JFK's back shot would be indicative of a location from higher up than the bottom floor. imo

Since I don't have endpoints for the back shot, there are many possibilities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 months later...
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The excerpt including the 118 frame (end of Towner) sync is from Meyers.

The excerpts including Webb/Shaneyfelt are from Gary Murr.

Hoover/FBI possessed a version of the assassination film sequence that was 33 seconds long.

486 + 118 = 604frames

604frames/18.3fps = 33 seconds.

A version that was "IN PROGRESS"

The FBI letter is dated 9 days before Shaneyfelt reveals his total frame count for the extant film while the 414 B/H FPS rate is determined approx 6 weeks before the letter is issued.

33Seconds.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 9/18/2019 at 1:04 PM, Chris Davidson said:

I only suggest the bottom floor location for a "over the limo" miss at approx extant z152

The miss at 152 - of which I am in total agreement as to timing - seems to have created a spark or ricochet to the left of the limo...

I thought for sure I had read about a woman who saw those "sparks" fly up off the street....

Anyway, the low trajectory from the bottom floor or even van top seems too shallow to have missed and hit so close to Dal-Tex.... 

The 2nd, 3rd and roof locations seems to make more sense for this shot....

1556971580_162JFKfacingrightwillilsrunningstopsHickeylooks.jpg.4d57ca06b0d42b95b337864bf0535865.jpg

 

2 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

604frames/18.3fps = 33 seconds.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; because we were able to determine the speed of the camera, and thereby accurately determine the length of time it takes for a specific number of frames to run through the camera at this 18.3 frames per second, and having located these frame positions in the street, we took the farthest distance point we had in the Zapruder film which was frame 161 through frame 313.
This was found to run elapsed time from the film standpoint which runs at 18.3 frames a second, runs for a total of 8.3 seconds.
This distance is 136.1 feet, and this can be calculated then to 11.2 miles per hour.

===

At the actual speed of 16fps there are 528 frames in 33 seconds... less 486 = 42 frames...  or just enough time for a limo stop removal...??

===
Much more importantly... they kept referring to frame 161 as the start of the 8.3 second shooting span to frame 313...   
33 seconds - 8.3 seconds = 24.7 = seconds from frame 0 to 161 plus frame 314 to 486.  
161 + 172 = 333 frames / 24.7 seconds = 13.48 frames per second film speed for the non-shooting sequences 

Isn't that a problem that directly suggests frame removal? :huh:

As long as they held to those 8.3 seconds for 161-313, 152 frames (18.3fps) they should have had only 18.2 more seconds of film, not 24.7
6.5 more seconds of film... 119 frames at 18.3fps and 104 frames at 16fps   

Removal of the turn? :drive

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20 hours ago, David Josephs said:

At the actual speed of 16fps there are 528 frames in 33 seconds... less 486 = 42 frames...  or just enough time for a limo stop removal...??

Isn't that a problem that directly suggests frame removal? :huh:

 

David,

I haven't forgotten about 16FPS being the final divisor.

In fact, I'll lend it some initial support for now with this same FBI document.

The Nix shooting sequence is listed at 8 seconds.

My Quicktime counter starts with 0 so this sequence is 122 frames.

Myers starts the Nix sequence at the equivalent of Z291 which is 22 frames before extant z313

Itek's study of the Nix film lists 28 prior frames until extant z313.

I've pointed this out before in terms of the Myers/Itek frame count disparity.

Here's the sync:

Itek 28 - Meyers 22 = a 6 frame difference

Added to 122 existing Nix frames = 128 total Nix frames for the shooting sequence

128 /16fps = 8 seconds = the FBI document match.

The difference in time for 128 frames between 16/18.3fps = 1second which works nicely with the CE884 final plat data entries of (z168-171) to z186) where over part of that 1 second span, the limo is listed as traveling at 3.74mph because they altered the distance to adjust/sync for at least the two headshots down near extant z313.

I'm still working on if this was the stepped down rate from 48/24/16 or two different camera's.  Should have said the 18.3 -16fps math conversion.

 

"Though Nix turned over a copy of his film to the FBI in Dec. 1, 1963, according to the suit, that was just the beginning of its story. After some tough bargaining, Nix went to New York City and sold the original to the wire service UPI for $5,000 and, strangely, “a new fedora.” After a handshake deal, UPI said it would return the film in 25 years."

8seconds.png

 

Edited by Chris Davidson
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21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

At the actual speed of 16fps there are 528 frames in 33 seconds... less 486 = 42 frames...  or just enough time for a limo stop removal...??

 

More support

Erwin Schwartz watches it on a 24fps projector.

24fps x 22sec = 528 total frames

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OeXkxU2J0bXNueVU/view?usp=sharing

Added on edit: If you want to apply the above to the extant Z version of z133-z486 = 353 frames

353/22sec = 16.045fps using a 16fps projector

Edited by Chris Davidson
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On 7/9/2020 at 12:38 PM, David Josephs said:

The miss at 152 - of which I am in total agreement as to timing - seems to have created a spark or ricochet to the left of the limo...

I thought for sure I had read about a woman who saw those "sparks" fly up off the street....

Anyway, the low trajectory from the bottom floor or even van top seems too shallow to have missed and hit so close to Dal-Tex.... 

The 2nd, 3rd and roof locations seems to make more sense for this shot....

1556971580_162JFKfacingrightwillilsrunningstopsHickeylooks.jpg.4d57ca06b0d42b95b337864bf0535865.jpg

 

 

Yes, we're in agreement.

I believe hiding the head turn reactions of both JFK and Connally at/near the splice is what that alteration was trying to accomplish.

How high from within the DalTex would be nice to know, but it obviously didn't originate from the TSBD so I won't dwell on that.

Reverse Gif is sped up to accentuate the head turns.

Connally.gif

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On 7/10/2020 at 4:48 PM, David Josephs said:

But what about that 24fps speed?

Was he watching a 48fps original or a 16fps?

I suggested 24fps if he was watching it on a 16mm projector.

8mm projector equals more than likely a 16fps playback rate.

353 frames shot at 18.3fps but projected at 16fps would still result in 22 seconds.

 "After the dupes were found satisfactory, the original film was slit to 8mm. Mr. Zapruder, possibly his attorney, Phil and several laboratory personnel viewed an 8mm film on an 8mm projector at least twice. Mr. Zapruder left with his original and three dupes and to the best of anyone's recollection no one at the Dallas lab had direct contact with Mr. Zapruder again."

 

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"(Marilyn Sitzman, and Charles and Beatrice Hester, near the Pergola), before giving way to the lead motorcycle escort on the assassination portion of the film. On the original Zapruder film in the Archives, the entire "green chair" footage is missing, and only 14.5 frames (of approximately 117 total) of the Dealey Plaza bystander sequence is present immediately prior to the lead motorcycle sequence. Presumably, someone (at some point subsequent to the exposure of the three first-generation copies on November 22,1963) removed footage that they thought was unimportant from the original film."

"In the early afternoon on the day of the Kennedy assassination, I was told by Mr. Chamberlain to set up a processing machine for some special film the secret service would be bringing in. I did so. Sometime later a secret service agent with a roll of film was brought to me. (I cannot comment on any handling of the film before this). I took the agent and the roll of film into the processing room. There the single roll of film was fed into the #2 processing machine by B. Davis (deceased). Davis, the agent and myself stayed in the darkroom until the film entered the dry cabinet. The agent and I then went to the dry alley. The lights in the drying cabinet were turned off so we could not view the film. When the roll of film reached take off, I removed it and gave it to the agent. No film was removed from roll at the processing operation. I am not sure if the edge printer was off or on (for some reason I think the agent requested we turn it off). After talking with Mr. Chamberlain and the fact that dupes were made of the film, I did not at this time, see it in its slit 8mm form."

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I have from time to time had disagreements with Chris which he usually won in pointing out some of my mistakes.  I appreciate that.  The truth is more important than ego.

You have got to admire the tremendous amount of work put into this thread by Chris.  Working with the Zapruder film must be truly frustrating in trying to get the truth out of it. 

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