Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building?

[David Von Pein]

In officer Baker's early statements, he gives no account whatsoever of pulling a gun on Oswald, or even seeing him in the second floor lunchroom.

But what about Roy Truly's CORROBORATION of Baker's encounter with OSWALD (not some other unknown person) in the LUNCHROOM on the SECOND FLOOR?

We have TRULY corroborating BAKER.

Should I believe they BOTH lied?

Why should I believe such a thing, Sandy? Why?

And furthermore, WHY would they both lie about an encounter on the SECOND FLOOR? Such an encounter most certainly doesn't prove Oswald was on the SIXTH FLOOR shooting at President Kennedy 90 seconds earlier. So why on Earth would anyone create and act out such a charade, which, in effect, proves NOTHING?

~great big shrug~

Edited April 19, 2016 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

No you didn't. You just said I was flat wrong.

You must be joking. I didn't just say "You're wrong" without saying anything else. Go to my Post #22. ....

"Where on Earth did you get the "20 to 25 seconds" timing? Nobody that I know of has ever claimed that the second-floor TSBD encounter between Marrion Baker and Lee Harvey Oswald occurred as early as "20 to 25 seconds" after the assassination. It is generally accepted by almost everybody (even most conspiracy believers) that the encounter in the lunchroom took place approximately 90 seconds after the shooting, just as Officer Baker estimated in his CBS-TV interview in 1964." -- DVP

Edited April 19, 2016 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Sandy,

I appreciate the work you put into this but I'm really not seeing the relevance. I mean it's obvious a great little slice of the event captured on film of him running into the TSBD is what we see in the GIF. And the far more intriguing part of it is the Prayer Man figure still standing there at the top of the stairs.

There are people standing, looking, walking, and running amid the confusion of what just happened in that clip but I just don't see how you can take such a huge leap to assume he's heading over to D-T, then cuts and runs into TSBD. And even if he did cut and run, what does it really matter anyway?

What an act!

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy,

I appreciate the work you put into this but I'm really not seeing the relevance. I mean it's obvious a great little slice of the event captured on film of him running into the TSBD is what we see in the GIF. And the far more intriguing part of it is the Prayer Man figure still standing there at the top of the stairs.

There are people standing, looking, walking, and running amid the confusion of what just happened in that clip but I just don't see how you can take such a huge leap to assume he's heading over to D-T, then cuts and runs into TSBD. And even if he did cut and run, what does it really matter anyway?

Mike,

First, I am not saying that Baker's intention was originally to go to the Dal-Tex building, and that he changed his mind and went to the TSBD after all. Although it is possible he did that, that is not what my post is about. My post is also not stating that Baker went to the Dal-Tex building. Though it does mention that possibility.

What my post is about is that Baker's initial intention wasn't to enter the TSBD. And this is contrary to the official story.

What is the significance of this? The short answer is this: The official story is that Baker entered the TSBD very quickly and found Oswald in the second-story lunchroom. If it turns out this is not true, this means that the story was manufactured as part of the cover-up. And if it was manufactured, there must be a good reason for it being manufactured. If a researcher discovers the reason for it being manufactured, then a part of the cover-up puzzle will be solved.

I happen to believe that the lunchroom encounter between between Oswald and Baker never happened. I believe that the encounter was manufactured in order to place Oswald away from the front entrance during the shooting. I don't know if I'm right, but if I am then it would be useful to prove that the second-floor Oswald/Baker encounter never occurred.

My understanding is that the timing for Baker to arrive at the TSBD and find Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom is tight. (Anybody... correct me if I am wrong. Or right.) If I am right about that, then clearly a delay in Baker's arrival in the TSBD could spell trouble for the official story. That is a weak spot I am trying to exploit.

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy,

I appreciate the work you put into this, but I'm really not seeing the relevance. I mean it's obvious a great little slice of the event captured on film of him running into the TSBD is what we see in the GIF. And the far more intriguing part of it is the Prayer Man figure still standing there at the top of the stairs.

There are people standing, looking, walking, and running amid the confusion of what just happened in that clip, but I just don't see how you can take such a huge leap to assume he's heading over to D-T, then cuts and runs into TSBD. And even if he did cut and run, what does it really matter anyway?

I agree with everything you just said, Michael.

Plus, I think one of the most intriguing parts of the GIF clip below is the fact that we can see TWO different people who appear to be looking UP toward the upper floors of the Depository -- "Stetson Hat Man" and the man in the dark suit on the far right:

In addition, when looking at the full-sized version of the GIF clip presented by Sandy (1024 x 613), it looks to me as if a pretty good argument could be made for Baker's last step in that GIF clip representing a bit of a "jump up" by Baker as he goes from street level "up" one step to the higher level of the sidewalk that is right in front of the Book Depository Building. (Click the above clip to enlarge it to full size.)

And if that is the case (Baker "jumping" up onto the sidewalk), that would certainly not be consistent with him continuing to run in the street toward the Dal-Tex Building.

David,

Baker is about six feet away from the sidewalk in the last frame we see him in Darnell. We know that because his shadow (which happens to be about six feet long) just barely hit the face of the curb before the clip ends. So it is quite unlikely that he is jumping up on the sidewalk at that time. I'd say impossible.

[Sandy Larsen]

In officer Baker's early statements, he gives no account whatsoever of pulling a gun on Oswald, or even seeing him in the second floor lunchroom.

But what about Roy Truly's CORROBORATION of Baker's encounter with OSWALD (not some other unknown person) in the LUNCHROOM on the SECOND FLOOR?

We have TRULY corroborating BAKER.

Should I believe they BOTH lied?

Why should I believe such a thing, Sandy? Why?

And furthermore, WHY would they both lie about an encounter on the SECOND FLOOR? Such an encounter most certainly doesn't prove Oswald was on the SIXTH FLOOR shooting at President Kennedy 90 seconds earlier. So why on Earth would anyone create and act out such a charade, which, in effect, proves NOTHING?

~great big shrug~

Show me a first-day affidavit from Marrion Baker that is corroborated a first-day affidavit from Roy Truly, where the topic of corroboration is Oswald in the second floor lunchroom.

[Sandy Larsen]

No you didn't. You just said I was flat wrong.

You must be joking. I didn't just say "You're wrong" without saying anything else. Go to my Post #22. ....

"Where on Earth did you get the "20 to 25 seconds" timing? Nobody that I know of has ever claimed that the second-floor TSBD encounter between Marrion Baker and Lee Harvey Oswald occurred as early as "20 to 25 seconds" after the assassination. It is generally accepted by almost everybody (even most conspiracy believers) that the encounter in the lunchroom took place approximately 90 seconds after the shooting, just as Officer Baker estimated in his CBS-TV interview in 1964." -- DVP

You ASKED me where I got the 20-25 sec figure... Bob EXPLAINED to me where I got it. But the main difference is that Bob has my best interests at heart. He wanted to save me some embarrassment.

But I don't blame you for your reaction (for example, making sure my error lives on forever) because I know there are plenty of CTers out to embarrass you at the drop of a hat.

[David Von Pein]

David,

Baker is about six feet away from the sidewalk in the last frame we see him in Darnell. We know that because his shadow (which happens to be about six feet long) just barely hit the face of the curb before the clip ends. So it is quite unlikely that he is jumping up on the sidewalk at that time. I'd say impossible.

I respectfully disagree. I see Baker taking a long stride in that last step, in order to step up onto the sidewalk. Looks to me like Baker is striding directly toward the sidewalk and the Depository (running directly into the shadow his body is casting).

[David Von Pein]

No you didn't. You just said I was flat wrong.

You must be joking. I didn't just say "You're wrong" without saying anything else. Go to my Post #22. ....

"Where on Earth did you get the "20 to 25 seconds" timing? Nobody that I know of has ever claimed that the second-floor TSBD encounter between Marrion Baker and Lee Harvey Oswald occurred as early as "20 to 25 seconds" after the assassination. It is generally accepted by almost everybody (even most conspiracy believers) that the encounter in the lunchroom took place approximately 90 seconds after the shooting, just as Officer Baker estimated in his CBS-TV interview in 1964." -- DVP

You ASKED me where I got the 20-25 sec figure... Bob EXPLAINED to me where I got it. But the main difference is that Bob has my best interests at heart. He wanted to save me some embarrassment.

But I don't blame you for your reaction (for example, making sure my error lives on forever) because I know there are plenty of CTers out to embarrass you at the drop of a hat.

OK. Fair enough.

But now I'm wondering where Bob got it, because as I posted earlier, Baker's Aug. '64 affidavit doesn't indicate "20-25 seconds" for that event. It indicates "15 seconds".

But perhaps Baker said something like "It took me 20 or 25 seconds to get to the front entrance" in some other interview somewhere.

~shrug~

Edited April 19, 2016 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Show me a first-day affidavit from Marrion Baker that is corroborated [by] a first-day affidavit from Roy Truly, where the topic of corroboration is Oswald in the second floor lunchroom.

Well, first off, there is no "first-day" affidavit by Depository Superintendent Roy S. Truly. He didn't fill out his affidavit until the next day (November 23). So does that mean I should think it is not an accurate statement by Mr. Truly? Is that it, Sandy?

It's certainly true that Officer Baker doesn't mention the "lunchroom" or "second floor" or "pulling a gun on Oswald" in his 11/22/63 affidavit, but if we compare the two affidavits — BAKER'S and TRULY'S — the reasonable conclusion to reach, despite Baker's error about the event occurring on either the "third or fourth floor", is that Baker and Truly are describing the exact same encounter.

Another reason we can pretty much KNOW that Baker and Truly are describing the exact same encounter with Oswald in their respective Nov. '63 affidavits is because each man described just ONE single encounter with ONE single man during their trek through the building on 11/22/63.

And if you want to believe that Baker really DID encounter a person on the "third or fourth floor" of the TSBD, then what possible reason would there be for anybody (including Roy S. Truly) to want to lie and change the location of the encounter to the SECOND floor, which is two additional floors further away from the sixth floor where the crime was committed? Does that make a lick of sense? It sure doesn't to me.

Edited April 19, 2016 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

David,

Baker is about six feet away from the sidewalk in the last frame we see him in Darnell. We know that because his shadow (which happens to be about six feet long) just barely hit the face of the curb before the clip ends. So it is quite unlikely that he is jumping up on the sidewalk at that time. I'd say impossible.

I respectfully disagree. I see Baker taking a long stride in that last step, in order to step up onto the sidewalk. Looks to me like Baker is striding directly toward the sidewalk and the Depository (running directly into the shadow his body is casting).

You are respectfully blind. Not only is Baker six feet from the sidewalk, he is taking a big step parallel to its edge... thus maintaining his six-foot distance from it. Follow my blue line.

Tom Neal, maybe you're mapping to an overhead view is necessary after all.

[Sandy Larsen]

Show me a first-day affidavit from Marrion Baker that is corroborated [by] a first-day affidavit from Roy Truly, where the topic of corroboration is Oswald in the second floor lunchroom.

Well, first off, there is no "first-day" affidavit by Depository Superintendent Roy S. Truly. He didn't fill out his affidavit until the next day (November 23). So does that mean I should think it is not an accurate statement by Mr. Truly? Is that it, Sandy?

It's certainly true that Officer Baker doesn't mention the "lunchroom" or "second floor" or "pulling a gun on Oswald" in his 11/22/63 affidavit, but if we compare the two affidavits — BAKER'S and TRULY'S — the reasonable conclusion to reach, despite Baker's error about the event occurring on either the "third or fourth floor", is that Baker and Truly are describing the exact same encounter.

LOL, yeah, sure. The exact same encounters that were completely different. It's funny how Baker, a trained cop, couldn't get a single thing right. Oh wait... he did say the encounter was with a guy. Check! Close enough for government work.

Another reason we can pretty much KNOW that Baker and Truly are describing the exact same encounter with Oswald in their respective Nov. '63 affidavits is because each man described just ONE single encounter with ONE single man during their trek through the building on 11/22/63.

And if you want to believe that Baker really DID encounter a person on the "third or fourth floor" of the TSBD, then what possible reason would there be for anybody (including Roy S. Truly) to want to lie and change the location of the encounter to the SECOND floor, which is two additional floors further away from the sixth floor where the crime was committed? Does that make a lick of sense? It sure doesn't to me.

There are numerous problems with this alleged encounter. Too many to discuss here, and already been discussed to death.

[David Von Pein]

You are respectfully blind. Not only is Baker six feet from the sidewalk, he is taking a big step parallel to its edge... thus maintaining his six-foot distance from it. Follow my blue line.

Your silly blue line is worthless and meaningless. You can't start drawing lines on photos or films and expect to extract perfect three-dimensional information, which is something Dale Myers has been trying to drill into the heads of you know-it-all conspiracy hobbyists for years:

"Photogrammetry describes how three-dimensional spatial relationships can be extracted from two-dimensional photographs or images. Without taking into account these relationships, accurate interpretations of two-dimensional images are impossible. In short, you cannot simply draw or overlay lines on a two-dimensional image and extract three-dimensional information." -- Dale K. Myers

[David Lifton]

Sandy,

I appreciate the work you put into this but I'm really not seeing the relevance. I mean it's obvious a great little slice of the event captured on film of him running into the TSBD is what we see in the GIF. And the far more intriguing part of it is the Prayer Man figure still standing there at the top of the stairs.

There are people standing, looking, walking, and running amid the confusion of what just happened in that clip but I just don't see how you can take such a huge leap to assume he's heading over to D-T, then cuts and runs into TSBD. And even if he did cut and run, what does it really matter anyway?

Michael Walton:

I tend to agree with your commentary, but skipping all the "optical" details, the main point I would like to make is this--we must look at this crime from the standpoint of "what was planned" versus "what actually happened" as a consequence of mistakes made in its execution.

If JFK's murder was carefully pre-planned (and I think it was); and if that plan involved Oswald-as-scapegoat (and I think it did), then what can be called--for want of a better term--the "fatal intersection" between Oswald and Kennedy was integral to the original design of the plot.

In other words, it cannot possibly be viewed as coincidence that a returned defector--one of a half doze such persons in a nation of almost 200 million--ended up being employed on the President's parade route.

If so, then it was planned in advance to create the (false) appearance that President Kennedy was shot by an assassin who was located in the Texas School Book Depository. To that end, a so-called "sniper's nest" was set up, and the "assassin's rifle" was placed nearby. (Exactly how that was arranged is besides the point, for the purposes of this post).

If this--in principle, anyway--was how this scheme was supposed to work, then I see no reason--none at all--to have a police officer run into the wrong building. That's what the Dal-Tex building would appear to be--an incorrect destination if (and I stress "if") --what I have just described was the original design of this scheme. To have the officer heading into the wrong building would have been a whopper of an error.

For these reasons, I am reluctant to enter into, and then attempt to descend, into this "rabbit hole", which I believe to be (a) incorrect and (b ) (largely) irrelevant.

The DPD radio transmissions--as well as the behavior of Baker--makes eminently clear that the TSBD was the pre-planned location of the pre-selected scapegoat. (See Ch. 14 of B.E.)

Personally, I think Officer Marion Baker was a bit of a dope, but that is besides the point.

From his earliest statements (11/22 and 11/23) there was never any question as to his destination--based on what he himself said. What changed--over the first 24 hours--was his "probable cause" for running into that building. (First, he "decided" that the shots came from there; later, it was "pigeons flying". etc.)

Also: don't forget what Baker himself said--according to Truly's testimony--after the lunchroom encounter, and as the two of them ascended the stairs to the roof. This is in the testimony of Roy Truly: "We must be careful. This man can blow your head off." (From memory).

I'm sorry, but IMHO, I don't believe that the Dal-Tex building played any role whatsoever in terms of the frame-up of Oswald.

DSL

Edited April 21, 2016 by David Lifton

[Michael Walton]

David - I agree it does look like he's stepping up or hopping up onto the sidewalk. Is there a sewer drainage hole cut into the sidewalk there? I've been known to kind of hop up onto the sidewalk while walking on city streets when I'm close to a drainage hole cut into the sidewalk so that appears to be what he was doing.

Sandy - thanks for the clarification. In your very first post in this thread, the intro starts out great until I read this line:

"But it's a mere illusion, as I will show here in this post."

That line really threw off the intro, at least for me. This line, too, kind of threw me off:

"I will now proceed to prove that officer Baker had no intention of running into the TSBD when he began his mad dash, and didn't enter till later. As you will see, this is yet one more nail in the coffin of the Baker-Oswald second-floor lunchroom encounter myth."

So when I read those two quotes above, it kind of muddied your intro, at least in my mind, because it kind of sounds like you're making it seem like he changed tracks from D-T to TSBD, but then in the last sentence ("As you will see...") that was a nice comeback as you clarify that you hope to show that the lunchroom encounter was a myth.

EDIT - please visit this thread on this forum with more high-quality research of the Baker encounter with Oswald:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354

Edited April 20, 2016 by Michael Walton