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Mark Lane was the individual who most inspired me to become involved in researching the JFK assassination. I joined his Citizens Committee of Inquiry as a teenager, and the afternoon I spent in his office in late 1976, which included a long conversation with him that revolved around one of the most popular entertainers of the time, young Freddie Prinze, is recounted in full in my book.

Mark Lane was one of the last of the original band of critics. I think Vincent Salandria may well be the last surviving one. I'm sure he couldn't have been too happy with the state of the critical community in general. Needless to say, Mark Lane would never have become a neo-con. He was a purist, and one of the few remaining civil libertarians left in this country.

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I still have "Rush To Judgment" and "Two Men In Dallas" on VHS,

always and forever great documentaries.

He was one that influenced my interest in the assassination - the research community owes him immensely.

He knew the truth and never surrendered because of the slander and deception thrown at him by MSM and the disinformation community;

in my opinion that's a positive way to define a man's life.

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yeah, i just read it, too, from @Pauley Perrette, Abby on NCIS, who was good friends with him somehow - sorry to hear this, I still hold "Plausible Denial" as one of my favorites. Sad for his friends and family, but at least now he knows...

frankly Glen, I think he always knew!

I agree - though there's "knowing," then there's knowing.

i found it odd that the major cable news outlets hardly even mentioned it yesterday. didn't hear or see a peep from any of them. amazing. - and it really did JUST NOW occur to me what i'm saying. of COURSE they didn't recognize Mark Lane.

didn't the media have a national wake/day of mourning or something when Bugs died last year? oh well. it's not easy being right, is it...

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Hi everyone,

I'm a forum lurker, and decided to join after hearing the news of Mark Lane's passing.

He really was a pioneer as part of the first generation of JFK research and inspiration for many with his tireless work. The entire US government was working against him, and it's hard to imagine the resentment he must have also generated from average Americans merely for daring to defend Oswald. He also did this at a time when JFK research was literally in it's infancy. When you think of how much has been learned since 1964, it's pretty amazing how he was able to do so much with (relatively) so little.

In the past few weeks I had been listening to his debates posted on YouTube, and am continually impressed with his passion, thoroughness, and wit. It's easy to hear that anyone debating him was up against a formidable intellect. The debate with William F. Buckley also demonstrates how unflappable Lane was.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their personal moments with him.

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Len Osanic will have a special show on Lane next week.,

I will be one of the guests.

He will probably repost the excellent debate Lane had with several opponents at Beverly Hills High School back in the mid sixties.

If you have not heard that one, its a real treat. Len had the sound redone so its excellent quality.

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Mark Lane was the first naysayer I remember. People can't appreciate the courage one had to have to speak up at this time. I have a brother 10 years older than me, whose a surgeon, who rarely gets rattled, but whose vital signs rise significantly when confronted with evidence of a JFK conspiracy. There were many such his age at the time. When confronted with Mark Lane, he'll always conveniently paint him with his later presence at Jonestown.

This video below shows a number of the Mark Lane witnesses I first saw that contradicted the Warren Report. I'll never forget S.M. Holland, an everyday common guy speaking out. He seemed to me to be a guy who couldn't lie about anything if he had to.

I've heard a contradiction of Price's account that no one else saw someone running from behind the fence. But I'd be curious to hear from DVP or anyone else about the authenticity of the smoke photo at the end.

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But I'd be curious to hear from DVP or anyone else about the authenticity of the smoke photo at the end.

Regarding witness S.M. Holland's claim of having seen "a puff of smoke" on the knoll during the President's assassination, Vince Bugliosi offers these eloquent and well-stated words:

  • "If an ephemeral wisp of smoke -- even if it existed -- can overcome several mountains of solid evidence to the contrary, then the investigation into the truth in the assassination is more of an existential exercise fit for black coffee-sipping Left Bank philosophers who have always been more interested in asking questions than in getting answers to those questions." -- VB; Page 896 [of "Reclaiming History"]


In an extensive endnote, VB provides many well-thought-out and reasonable observations when it comes to the various other "I Saw Smoke" Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses (besides S.M. Holland).

Vince systematically shreds each and every "smoke" witness (and takes a stab at good ol' Mark Lane, to boot). The "smoke" surgery can be found on pages 497-499 of the endnotes.

  • "A puff of smoke: As with every other area of the case, the conspiracy theorists and Warren Commission critics...have distorted the official record." -- VB; Page 497 of Endnotes


Additional well-placed humor is inserted into VB's CD notes when talking further about the topic of smoke:

  • "If what [Robert] Groden encircled [on a still frame of Dave Wiegman's film; linked here] were smoke, it would appear to be smoke from a small smokestack. If that's an exaggeration, what is not is that the image is probably 50 times larger than what could be expected from the muzzle of a fired rifle.

    "Moreover, the large image is not anywhere along the stockade fence, being to the west of the fence near the Triple Underpass. And finally, Groden has also encircled the presidential limousine on the photo, and it is, as he acknowledges, "disappearing under" the Triple Underpass, meaning that Wiegman's photo had to have been taken at least a few seconds after all the shots were fired.

    "What can Groden's response to this be? That the smoke originally came from a rifle fired behind the picket fence, that instead of vanishing in the wind it actually mushroomed into a large, cloudlike image that kept its form and was drifting west at the time of the frame from Wiegman's film?

    "We know the image in the Wiegman frame is not smoke from any rifle." -- VB; Pages 500-501 of Endnotes

More Smoke Talk can be found HERE and HERE.


"The idea that THAT MUCH smoke would still be lingering near the Knoll several seconds AFTER the shot was fired seems a tad far-fetched (as is the idea of these "pro" assassins even utilizing ammunition which produces THAT MUCH SMOKE in the first place, to potentially be seen by gobs of witnesses and blow the whole Patsy Plot/Conspiracy Plot).

There's also the assertion (via some CTers) that has a person riding in one of the press busses (at the REAR of the motorcade) who claims that "smoke" ("gunsmoke" per the CT set) was STILL visible near street level as the bus passed through Dealey Plaza, which HAD to have been at LEAST a full minute (or even two minutes) after the shooting occurred. Come now.

Such an assertion actually only serves to bolster the idea that ANY "smoke" that was seen by Holland, Dodd, etc., had come from some OTHER source other than rifle fire." -- DVP; May 26, 2006

Edited by David Von Pein
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Regarding witness S.M. Holland's claim of having seen "a puff of smoke" on the knoll during the President's assassination, Vince Bugliosi offers these eloquent and well-stated words...

Yes, David, it's possible for a gun to shoot out smoke and yes, it's possible for it to linger. There are enough witnesses that reported smelling gunpowder in DP after the shooting. It doesn't mean it came from the knoll but it *was* reported. The point, though, is a witness reported seeing this down by the fence and because it didn't dovetail with the government's preconceived notions of the "official" story, it was either swept under the rug or countermanded.

To put it mildly, VB was a d$%& - it's as simple as that. He took info from the Warren Report and then wrapped his cutting and pasting with verbose, insulting language to make all CT-ers look like kooks. He was a lawyer and he knew that doing this was a great way to make contradicting evidence sound like it's coming from crazy people. This has been the modus operandi of all Lone Nut supporters since the beginning.

Oswald couldn't defend himself, but Mark Lane saw through it all very early in the game. I was surprised he developed a solid rebuttal to what the government was cooking up so early. He was really on top of it and it's pretty impressive:

Imagine that he developed the above in December 1963. There's no doubt in my mind that if Oswald had not been assassinated himself, and if he had been represented by someone like Lane, the government's case against him would have collapsed. Which proves even more that the fix was on and, thus, the reason why Oswald was silenced.
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Here is a list, in alphabetical order by surname, and no doubt incomplete, of those witnesses to President Kennedy’s assassination who claimed that one or more shots came from the general direction of the grassy knoll:

1.Victoria Adams

2.Danny Garcia Arce

3.Virgie Baker (née Rackley)

4.Jane Berry

5.Charles Brehm

6.Ochus Campbell

7.Faye Chism

8.John Chism

9.Harold Elkins

10.Ronald Fischer

11.Buell Wesley Frazier

12.Dorothy Garner

13.Jean Hill

14.S. M. Holland

15.Ed Johnson

16.Dolores Kounas

17.Paul Landis

18.Billy Lovelady

19.Austin Miller

20.A.J. Millican

21.Luke Mooney

22.Thomas Murphy

23.Jean Newman

24.William Newman

25.Kenneth O’Donnell and David Powers

26.Roberta Parker

27.Frank Reilly

28.Arnold Rowland

29.Edgar Smith

30.Joe Marshall Smith

31.Forrest Sorrels

32.James Tague

33.Roy Truly

34.Harry Weatherford

35.Seymour Weitzman

36.Otis Williams

37.Mary Woodward

38.Abraham Zapruder

•Several other witnesses gave statements that may be interpreted as evidence of shots from the grassy knoll.

•Four witnesses of varying degrees of credibility, Gordon Arnold, Cheryl McKinnon, Lee Bowers, and Ed Hoffman, also claimed to have experienced shots or other sinister activity on the grassy knoll.

The Layout of Dealey Plaza

For online images and maps of Dealey Plaza, see the Mary Ferrell Foundation website. A plan of Dealey Plaza with the locations of known witnesses can be found in Josiah Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas: A Micro–Study of the Kennedy Assassination, Bernard Geis Associates, 1967, pp.252f. For an illustrated identification of witnesses in photographs of the assassination, see Les Témoins de Dealey Plaza, which contains links to the witnesses’ testimony; although it is in French, it can be easily understood by those who don’t read the language.

Victoria Adams

Victoria Adams was watching the motorcade from a window on the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

She believed the sound came from toward the right of the building, rather than from the left and above as it must have been according to subsequent information disseminated by the news services.

(Warren Commission Document 5, p.39, 24 November 1963)

It seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.388, 7 April 1964)

Danny Garcia Arce

Danny Arce, a colleague of Lee Oswald, was on the north side of Elm Street, near the TSBD.

To the best of my knowledge there were three shots and they came from the direction of the railroad tracks near the parking lot at the west end of the Depository Building.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.634, 18 March 1964)

Mr Ball :Where did you make out the direction of the sound?Mr Arce :Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository.…Mr Ball :Now, it sounded to you that the shots came from what direction?Mr Arce :From the tracks on the west deal.…Mr Ball :Did you look back at the building?Mr Arce :No, I didn’t think they came from there. I just looked directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up there and I just ran along with them.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, pp.365f, 7 April 1964)

Virginia Baker (née Rackley)

Virginia Rackley, who got married shortly after the assassination, was standing on the north side of Elm Street close to the main entrance to the TSBD.

It sounded as though these sounds were coming from the direction of the Triple Underpass, and looking in that direction after the first shot she saw something bounce from the roadway in front of the Presidential automobile and now presumes it was a bullet bouncing off the pavement. …

Rackley stated that she did not look up at the Texas School Book Depository building since she did not think that the sounds were coming from that building.

(Warren Commission Document 5, pp.66f, 24 November 1963)

[Linguistic note: although almost every British reader will know that a ‘pavement’ in the UK is a ‘sidewalk’ in the US, not all will be aware that in US English, the word ‘pavement’ refers to the hard surface of a road.]

Mr Liebeler :Did you have any idea where they [the shots] were coming from?Mrs Baker :Well, the way it sounded — it sounded like it was coming from — there was a railroad track that runs behind the building — there directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that runs back out there.…Mr Liebeler :And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there; is that right?Mrs Baker :Yes.Mr Liebeler :Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street?Mrs Baker :Yes.Mr Liebeler :And is that where you thought the shots came from?Mrs Baker :Yes.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, p.510, 22 March 1964)

Jane Berry

Jane Berry was standing on the north side of Elm Street a few yards west of the TSBD.

Everyone was very excited and no one seemed to know where the shot had come from. It sounded as if it had been fired from a position west of where she was standing.

(Warren Commission Document 5, p.42, 24 November 1964)

Charles Brehm

Charles Brehm was standing with his wife and young son on the south side of Elm Street, just a few yards from President Kennedy at the moment of the fatal shot.

The witness Brehm was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the shooting. “The first shot must not have been too solid, because he just slumped. Then on the second shot he seemed to fall back.”

Brehm seemed to think the shots came from in front of or beside the President. He explained the President did not slump forward as he would have after being shot from the rear. The book depository building stands in the rear of the President’s location at the time of the shooting.

(Dallas Times Herald, 22 November 1963, p.1)

Ochus Campbell

Ochus Campbell, the vice–president of the Texas School Book Depository Company, was standing with Roy Truly on the north side of Elm Street, about 30 feet from the front entrance to the TSBD.

Campbell says he ran toward a grassy knoll to the west of the building, where he thought the sniper had hidden.

(Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963)

Mr. CAMPBELL advised he had viewed the Presidential Motorcade and subsequently heard the shots being fired from a point which he thought was near the railroad tracks located over the viaduct on Elm Street.

(Warren Commission Document 5, p.336, 26 November 1963)

I heard shots being fired from a point which I thought was near the railroad tracks located over the viaduct on Elm street. I … had no occasion to look back at the Texas School Book Depository building as I thought the shots had come from the west.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.638, 19 March 1964)

Faye Chism

Faye and John Chism were standing close to the Stemmons Freeway sign on the north side of Elm Street.

It came from what I thought was behind us.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.472, 22 November 1963)

John Chism

I looked behind me, to see whether it was a fireworks display or something. And then I saw a lot of people running for cover, behind the embankment there back up on the grass.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.471, 22 November 1963)

On hearing the second shot he definitely knew the first was not a firecracker and was of the opinion the shots came from behind him.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.24, p.525, 18 December 1963)

Harold Elkins

Elkins was standing close to the crossroads at Main Street and Houston Street.

I immediately ran to the area from which it sounded like the shots had been fired. This is an area between the railroads and the Texas School Book Depository which is east of the railroads.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.540, 26 November 1964)

Ronald Fischer

Fischer was standing on the southwest corner of the crossroads at Houston Street and Elm Street, just opposite the TSBD.

Mr Belin :Where did the shots appear to be coming from?Mr Fischer :They appeared to be coming from just west of the School Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there were some railroad cars back in there.Mr Belin :And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars?Mr Fischer :Well, that area somewhere.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.195, 1 April 1964)

Buell Wesley Frazier

Frazier, who had driven Oswald to work that morning, was standing on the front steps of the TSBD.

Mr Ball :Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came?Mr Frazier :Well to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.2, p.234, 11 March 1964)

Dorothy Garner

Garner was watching the motorcade from a fourth–floor window of the TSBD.

I thought at the time the shots or reports came from a point to the west of the building.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.648, 20 March 1964)

Jean Hill

Jean Hill was standing on the south side of Elm Street, just a few yards from President Kennedy as he was shot in the head.

Mrs. Hill stated she heard from four to six shots in all and believes they came from a spot just west of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.25, p.854, 13 March 1964)

Mrs Hill :I didn’t realize that the shots were coming from the building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll.Mr Specter :Why did you think they were coming from the knoll?Mrs Hill :That was just my idea where they were coming from.Mr Specter :Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by the knoll?Mrs Hill :This area in front of the Book Depository — it’s right here.Mr Specter :Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general impression the shots were coming from.Mrs Hill :This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right in there. …Mr Specter :Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from?Mrs Hill :Well, evidently I didn’t because the only conscious recollection I have of that … I had always thought that they came from the knoll. … As I said, I thought they were coming from the general direction of that knoll.…Mr Specter :You just had the general impression that shots were coming from the knoll?Mrs Hill :Yes.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, pp.212f, 24 March 1964)

S. M. Holland

Sam Holland was standing on the railway bridge known as the triple underpass, at the west end of Dealey Plaza.

When they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a fire cracker and he slumped over and I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. … But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade through the trees.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.480, 22 November 1963)

HOLLAND stated that he looked toward the fence to his left to observe anyone that he might see running from this fence but saw no one.

The only unusual thing that HOLLAND could recall was an approximate one and one–half to two foot diameter of what he believed was gray smoke which appeared to him to be coming from the trees which would have been on the right of the Presidential car but observed no one there or in the vicinity.

(Warren Commission Document 5, p.49, 24 November 1963)

Mr Holland :I counted four shots and about the same time all this was happening, and in this group of trees — [indicating].Mr Stern :Now, you are indicating trees on the north side of Elm Street?Mr Holland :These trees right along here [indicating].Mr Stern :Let’s mark this Exhibit C and draw a circle around the trees you are referring to.Mr Holland :Right in there. [indicating.] … And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a fire–cracker or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. … There were definitely four reports.Mr Stern :You have no doubt about that?Mr Holland :I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, pp.243f, 8 April 1964)

Ed Johnson

Ed Johnson, a reporter for the Fort Worth Star–Telegram, was in the press bus, a few car–lengths back in the motorcade, and described his experiences in the next day’s paper:

The shots snapped out in the brisk, clear noon air.

Some reporter said, “My God, what’s that? It must be shots.”

The caravan kept wheeling on, picking up speed.

Some of the White House reporters yelled for the bus driver to stop. He kept on going, heading toward the Stemmons Expressway.

Some of us saw little puffs of white smoke that seemed to hit the grassy area in the esplanade that divides Dallas’ main downtown streets.

(Fort Worth Star–Telegram, 23 November 1963, p.2)

Dolores Kounas

Kounas was standing on the south side of Elm Street, opposite the TSBD.

It sounded as though these shots were coming from the Triple Underpass. … She stated it did not sound like the shots were coming from that [TSBD] direction but rather from the Triple Underpass.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.846, 24 November 1963)

Although I was across the street from the Depository building and was looking in the direction of the building as the motorcade passed and following the shots, I did not look up at the building as I had thought the shots came from a westerly direction in the vicinity of the viaduct.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.659, 23 March 1964)

Paul Landis

Paul Landis was a Secret Service agent in the car immediately behind President Kennedy’s car.

My reaction at this time was that the [fatal] shot came from somewhere towards the front.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.18, p.759, 17 November 1963)

Billy Lovelady

Lovelady was standing on the front steps of the TSBD. A famous photograph by James Altgens showed a man who resembled Lee Oswald in the doorway during the assassination; it is now generally agreed that the man was in fact Lovelady, not Oswald. For details, see Was Oswald on the TSBD Front Steps?

I heard several loud reports which I first thought to be firecrackers and which appeared to me to be in the direction of Elm Street viaduct just ahead of the Motorcade. I did not at any time believe the shots had come from the Texas School Book Depository.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.662, 19 March 1964)

Mr Ball :Where was the direction of the sound?Mr Lovelady :Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.Mr Ball :That’s where it sounded to you?Mr Lovelady :Yes, sir; to my right. …Mr Ball :From the underpass area?Mr Lovelady :Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.338, 7 April 1964)

Austin Miller

Miller was standing with other railway employees on the Triple Underpass.

I saw something which I thought was smoke or steam coming from a group of trees north of Elm off the Railroad tracks.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.485, 22 November 1963)

Mr Belin :Where did the shots sound like they came from?Mr Miller :Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say from right there in the car. Would be to my left, the way I was looking at him over toward that incline.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.225, 8 April 1964)

A.J. Millican

I was standing on the North side of Elm Street, about half way between Houston and the Underpass. … I heard three shots come from up toward Houston and Elm right by the Book Depository Building, and then immediately I heard two more shots come from the Arcade between the Book Store and the Underpass, and then three more shots came from the same direction only sounded further back.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.486, no date, but filed with a group of similar statements given on 22 November 1963)

Luke Mooney

Mooney, a deputy sheriff, was standing on Main Street, on the edge of Dealey Plaza. He was one of the officers who found the rifle hidden under boxes on the sixth floor.

Mr Ball :Why did you go over to the railroad yard?Mr Mooney :Well, that was — from the echo of the shots, we thought they came from that direction.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.283, 25 March 1964)

Thomas Murphy

Murphy was standing on the Triple Underpass.

MURPHY said in his opinion these shots came from a spot just west of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.835, 17 March 1964)

Jean Newman

Jean Newman was standing on the north side of Elm Street, between the TSBD and the knoll.

The first impression I had was that the shots came from my right.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.489, 22 November 1963)

She stated that when she realized the reports were shots she immediately turned and looked up the hill to the North toward the parking lot but did not see anything.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.843, 24 November 1963)

William Newman

William Newman (no relation to Jean Newman) was also standing on the north side of Elm Street, a little further along toward the knoll.

I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me, that was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb. I do not recall looking toward the Texas School Book Depository. I looked back in the vacinity [sic] of the garden.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.490, 22 November 1963)

Kenneth O’Donnell and David Powers

Two members of the White House staff, Kenneth O’Donnell and David Powers, were travelling in the Secret Service car immediately behind President Kennedy’s car. O’Donnell testified that the shots came from the rear (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, p.448). Powers agreed, but added that “I also had a fleeting impression that the noise appeared to come from the front in the area of the triple overpass” (ibid., p.473).

The politician, Tip O’Neill, claimed in his memoirs that both men had in fact heard shots from the grassy knoll:

I was never one of those people who had doubts or suspicions about the Warren Commission’s report on the president’s death. But five years after Jack died, I was having dinner with Kenny O’Donnell and a few other people at Jimmy’s Harborside Restaurant in Boston, and we got to talking about the assassination.

I was surprised to hear O’Donnell say that he was sure he had heard two shots that came from behind the fence.

“That’s not what you told the Warren Commission,” I said.

“You’re right, ” he replied. “I told the FBI what I had heard, but they said it couldn’t have happened that way and that I must have been imagining things. So I testified the way they wanted me to. I just didn’t want to stir up any more pain and trouble for the family.”

“I can’t believe it,” I said. ”I wouldn’t have done that in a million years. I would have told them the truth.”

“Tip, you have to understand. The family — everybody wanted this thing behind them.”

Dave Powers was with us at dinner that night, and his recollection of the shots was the same as O’Donnell’s. Kenny O’Donnell is no longer alive, but during the writing of this book I checked with Dave Powers. As they say in the news business, he stands by his story.

(Thomas P. O’Neill, Jr., Man of the House: The Life and Political Memoirs of Speaker Tip O’Neill, Random House, 1987, p.178)

Roberta Parker

Parker was standing directly opposite the main entrance to the TSBD.

The shot sounded to her as though it had come from a cement memorial building to the north of the Texas School Book Depository on Elm Street. She looked in that direction but saw nothing that she could relate to the shot. During this time, she heard two additional shots and in looking around, glanced at the Texas School Book Depository building which was directly across Elm from her.

(Warren Commission Document 205, p.504, 16 December 1963)

Frank Reilly

Reilly was standing with other railway workers on the railway bridge at the west end of Dealey Plaza.

He saw two cars turn on Elm toward the underpass and at this time heard three shots which he thought came from the trees west of the Texas School Book Depository.

(Warren Commission Document 205, p.29, 18 December 1963)

Mr Ball :What did you hear?Mr Reilly :Three shots.Mr Ball :Where did they seem to come from; what direction?Mr Reilly :It seemed to me like they come out of the trees.Mr Ball :What trees?Mr Reilly :On the north side of Elm Street at the corner up there.Mr Ball :On the north side of Elm — on what corner?Mr Reilly :Well, where all those trees are — you’ve never been down there?Mr Ball :Yes: I’ve been there, but you tell me — I want you to tell me because it has to go on the record here and it has to be in writing.Mr Reilly :Well, it’s at that park where all the shrubs is up there — it’s to the north of Elm Street — up the slope.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.230, 8 April 1964)

Arnold Rowland

Arnold Rowland was standing on the east side of Houston Street, facing the TSBD.

Mr Specter :Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of origin when you heard the first noise?Mr Rowland :Well, I began looking, I didn’t look at the building mainly, and as practically any of the police officers there will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.…Mr Specter :Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as to the point of origin or source?Mr Rowland :The same point or very close to it.Mr Specter :And how about the third shot?Mr Rowland :Very close to the same position.…Mr Specter :After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?Mr Rowland :No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.Mr Specter :Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day?Mr Rowland :I don’t remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area “C”, and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn’t pay any attention to it at that time.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.2, pp.180f, 10 March 1964)

Edgar Smith

Edgar Smith, a police officer, was standing on Houston Street, near the junction with Elm Street.

Mr Smith :I thought when it came to my mind that there were shots, and I was pretty sure there were when I saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, I thought they were coming from this area here, and I ran over there and back of it and, of course, there wasn’t anything there.Mr Liebeler :You thought the shot came from this little concrete structure up behind No. 7?Mr Smith :Yes, sir.Mr Liebeler :On Commission Exhibit 354?Mr Smith :Yes.Mr Liebeler :Toward the railroad tracks there?Mr Smith :That’s true.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, p.568, 24 July 1964)

Joe Marshall Smith

Like his fellow police officer, Edgar Smith, Joe Marshall Smith (no relation) was at the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street.

[T]he reporter calling stated he had interviewed Patrolman J. M. Smith who advised that he definitely distinguished the aroma of gunpowder near the underpass. … He stated he did smell what he thought was gunpowder but stated this smell was in the parking lot by the TSBD Building and not by the underpass. He advised he never at any time went to the underpass and could not advise if there was the smell of gunpowder in the underpass.

(Warren Commission Document 205, p.39, 9 December 1963)

I heard the shots and thought they were coming from bushes of the overpass.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.600, 16 July 1964)

Mr Liebeler :Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?Mr Smith :No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.Mr Liebeler :down around the — let’s put a No. 5 there [on Commission Exhibit 354] at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building.Mr Smith :Yes.Mr Liebeler :Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area?Mr Smith :Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, pp.535f, 23 July 1964)

Forrest Sorrels

Forrest Sorrels, a Secret Service agent, was in the car immediately following the presidential car.

I looked towards the top of the terrace to my right as the sound of the shots seemed to come from that direction.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.21, p.548, 28 November 1963)

James Tague

James Tague, the third man wounded in Dealey Plaza, was standing close to the point where Commerce Street meets Main Street, by the triple underpass.

Mr Liebeler :Did you have any idea where these shots came from when you heard them ringing out?Mr Tague :Yes; I thought they were coming from my left.Mr Liebeler :Immediately to your left, or toward the back? Of course, now we have other evidence that would indicate that the shots did come from the Texas School Book Depository, but see if we can disregard that and determine just what you heard when the shots were fired in the first place.Mr Tague :To recall everything is almost impossible. Just an impression is all I recall, is the fact that my first impression was that up by the, whatever you call the monument, or whatever it was —…Mr Liebeler :Your impression of where the shots came from was much the result of the activity near No. 7 [on Commission Exhibit 354]?Mr Tague :Not when I heard the shots.Mr Liebeler :You thought they had come from the area between Nos. 7 and 5?Mr Tague :I believe they came from up in here.Mr Liebeler :Back in the area “C”?Mr Tague :Right.Mr Liebeler :Behind the concrete monument here between Nos. 7 and 5, toward the general area of “C”?Mr Tague :Yes.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, pp.556f, 23 March 1964)

Roy Truly

Roy Truly, a director and the superintendant of the Texas School Book Depository, was standing with Ochus Campbell on the north side of Elm Street, close to the TSBD. Shortly afterwards, he encountered Lee Oswald in the canteen on the second floor of the TSBD.

Mr Belin :Where did you think the shots came from?Mr Truly :I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or the WPA project [the concrete structure], behind the WPA project west of the building.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.227, 24 March 1964)

Harry Weatherford

Weatherford, a deputy sheriff, was standing outside the Criminal Court building on Main Street.

I heard a loud report which I thought was a railroad torpedo, as it sounded as if it came from the railroad yard. Thinking, this was a heck of a time for one to go off, then I heard a 2nd report which had more of an echo report and thought to myself, that this was a rifle and I started towards the corner when I heard the 3rd report. By this time I was running towards the railroad yards where the sound seemed to come from.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.502, 23 November 1963)

Seymour Weitzman

Weitzman was one of the police officers who discovered the rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD. At the time of the shooting, he was on the corner of Main Street and Houston Street.

I ran in a northwest direction and scaled a fence towards where we thought the shots came from.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.24, p.228, 23 November 1963)

Otis Williams

Williams was standing on the front steps of the TSBD.

Just after the Presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm Street embankment I heard three loud blasts. I thought these blasts or shots came from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.683, 19 March 1964)

Mary Woodward

Mary Woodward, a journalist on the Dallas Morning News, was standing on the north side of Elm Street, about halfway between the TSBD and the grassy knoll. She wrote about her experience in the following day’s paper.

Suddenly there was a horrible, ear–shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the right.

(‘Witness From the News Describes Assassination’, Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963, p.3)

United States Attorney H. BAREFOOT SANDERS, Dallas, Texas, telephonically advised ASAC KYLE G. CLARK on December 5, 1963, that a reporter for the Dallas “Morning News”, name unrecalled, had advised him that four of the women working in the Society Section of the Dallas “Morning News” were reportedly standing next to Mr. ZAPRUDA [sic] when the assassination shots were fired. According to this reporter, these women, names unknown, stated that the shots according to their opinion came from a direction other than from the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) Building.

(Warren Commission Document 205, p.39, 5 December 1963)

She stated that her first reaction was that the shots had been fired from above her head and from possibly behind her. Her next reaction was that the shots might have come from the overpass which was to her right. She stated, however, because of the loud echo, she could not say where the shots had come from, other that they had come from above her head.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.24, p.520, 6 December 1963)

Abraham Zapruder

Abraham Zapruder famously filmed the assassination from the top of a concrete pedestal on Elm Street close to the grassy knoll.

According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.

(Warren Commission Document 87, page unknown, 22 November 1963)

Mr Zapruder :I remember the police were running behind me. There were police running right behind me. Of course, they didn’t realize yet, I guess, where the shot came from — that it came from that height.Mr Liebeler :As you were standing on this abutment facing Elm street, you say the police ran over behind the concrete structure behind you and down the railroad track behind that, is that right?Mr Zapruder :After the shots?Mr Liebeler :Yes.Mr Zapruder :Yes — after the shots — yes, some of them were motorcycle cops – I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me.Mr Liebeler :Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?Mr Zapruder :No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can’t tell when something is in line — it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head — I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.Mr Liebeler :All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?Mr Zapruder :Well, yes.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, pp.571f, 22 July 1964)

Other Witnesses

A few witnesses made statements more ambiguous than those quoted above, that could be interpreted as supporting shots from the grassy knoll:

1.Eugene Boone (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.508)

2.E.V. Brown (Warren Commission Document 205, pp.39f)

3.James Crawford (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.173)

4.Avery Davis (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.642)

5.Emmett Hudson (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.481; cf. Warren Commission Document 5, p.30)

6.Clemon Johnson (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.836)

7.Joe Molina (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.371)

8.Samuel Paternostro (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.24, p.536)

9.Nolan Potter (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.834)

10.Jesse Price (Warren Commission Document 5, p.65)

11.Madie Reese (Warren Commission Document 5, p.59)

12.William Shelley (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.329)

13.James Simmons (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.833)

14.Garland Slack (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.26, p.364)

15.Steven Wilson (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.685)

Disputed Witnesses

Not all of the following witnesses are equally credible, but they all crop up in various accounts of the assassination.

Gordon Arnold

In 1978, the Dallas Morning News reported the claims of Gordon Arnold to have witnessed the assassination. Arnold, a soldier on leave, had apparently:

•been standing close to the fence on the grassy knoll,

•encountered a man who brandished Secret Service credentials,

•and fell to the ground on hearing shots from behind the fence.

Although the existence of the apparently bogus Secret Service agent had been mentioned 15 years earlier by witnesses such as the policemen Joe Marshall Smith and Seymour Weitzman (see Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, p.107), there is no conclusive evidence that Arnold himself was actually in Dealey Plaza during the assassination. He is not visible in any photographs or films, and none of the witnesses on the knoll mention his presence. He did, however, receive some support from Senator Ralph Yarborough, who was riding in the motorcade. Yarborough contacted the journalist Earl Golz, who had made Arnold’s story public, and told Golz that he had seen a man fall to the ground in the way Arnold had described. Yarborough may have seen Arnold, or he may instead have seen William Newman, who certainly fell to the ground close to the grassy knoll immediately after the fatal shot.

For more about Arnold’s story, see:

•Earl Golz, ‘SS Imposters Spotted by JFK Witnesses,’ Dallas Morning News, 27 August 1978, p.1A;

•James Douglass, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters, Orbis Books, 2008, pp.261f;

•Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt: An Investigation into the Assassination of John F. Kennedy, Henry Holt, 1985, pp.111–3.

Cheryl McKinnon

Another possible witness whose presence in Dealey Plaza cannot be substantiated is Cheryl McKinnon, a journalism student who claimed to have been standing on the north side of Elm Street.

Cheryl McKinnon does not appear to have offered an opinion on the source of the shots, or indeed on the assassination itself, until 20 years afterwards, when she wrote an account of her experiences for her newspaper:

Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas, is a lovely square. It sits in the heart of the downtown area [sic; Dealey Plaza is actually just to the west of downtown Dallas], a haven for those who want to enjoy their lunch under a tree on a spot of grass.

On Nov. 22, 1963, I stood, along with hundreds of others, on the grassy knoll in Dealey Plaza, waiting for just one thing — a chance to see, even for just a moment, that magical person, the president, John F. Kennedy.

I had prepared for days to be in the plaza. As a journalism major in school, my plans were to write a story about my experiences as a class project. Kennedy was for me the ideal of what a president should be — young and aggressive, yet thoughtful and seemingly genuinely concerned for his fellow man.

As we stood watching the motorcade turn onto Elm Street, I tried to grasp every tiny detail of both President and Mrs Kennedy, “How happy they look,” I thought. Suddenly, three shots in rapid succession rang out. Myself and dozens of others standing nearby turned in horror toward the back of the grassy knoll where it seemed the sounds had originated. Puffs of white smoke still hung in the air in small patches. But no one was visible.

Turning back to the street, now terribly frightened, I suddenly realized the president was no longer sitting up in the seat waving to the crowd. He was slumped over toward his wife, whose facial expression left no doubt as to what had occurred. The motorcade was beginning to gain speed and soon passed under the railroad trestle headed for its eventual destination, Parkland Hospital.

It was an impressionable teenage girl who watched the assassination of a president, but today, 20 years later, it is still as clear in my mind as if it happened this morning. One moment they were laughing and waving. The next moment, both men were slumped over and pandemonium reigned.

As the months passed, following the shootings of first Kennedy, then Oswald and then the deaths of Ruby and others, I tried to maintain the faith with my government. I have read the Warren Commission Report in its entirety and dozens of other books as well. I am sorry to say that the only thing I am absolutely sure of today is that at least two of the shots fired that day in Dealey Plaza came from behind where I stood on the knoll, not from the book depository.

I can’t accuse the government of hiding the truth or lying about the assassination, because no matter what I may personally believe, I have no proof. But that day in Dallas and those that followed left their mark and I have never quite had the same faith and trust in those that lead us as I did before.

(San Diego Star–News, 22 November 1983)

Doris Mumford

Cheryl McKinnon is frequently identified, without any supporting evidence, as the woman wearing sunglasses who is seen in several films and photographs, crouching on the grass. The woman in question has also been identified by Karen Moore, a contributor to an online forum, as her mother, Doris Mumford. Photographs uploaded to the forum are consistent with the identification of the woman as Doris Mumford, who at the time of the assassination was 36 years old and living in Richardson, a few miles north of Dallas. In a comment on the excellent jfkfacts.org blog, Karen Moore writes that her mother was standing near William Newman, and “heard three shots, they came from behind her, and she saw the life leave the President’s face.”

Lee Bowers

Lee Bowers was working in the railway control tower north of the car park at the top of the grassy knoll. He was not sure where the sound of the shots came from:

Mr Ball :And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the sound or what direction it came from, I mean?Mr Bowers :The sounds came either from up against the School Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.Mr Ball :Were you able to tell which?Mr Bowers :No, I could not.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.287, 2 April 1964)

Bowers did, however, testify to having seen unusual activity behind the fence on the grassy knoll. A few minutes before the assassination, three unfamiliar cars came into the car park, drove around, and left. One of the drivers appeared to be using a walkie–talkie. More significantly, Bowers appears to claim that two men were standing behind the fence:

Mr Ball :Now, were there any people standing on the high side — high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?Mr Bowers :Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle–aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy–set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.Mr Ball :Were they standing together or standing separately?Mr Bowers :They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.Mr Ball :In what direction were they facing?Mr Bowers :They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the caravan as it came down.…Mr Ball :Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after the shot?Mr Bowers :At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion. …Mr Ball :When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion?Mr Bowers :I just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.Mr Ball :You couldn’t describe it?Mr Bowers :Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that —Mr Ball :Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower?

(ibid., pp.287f)

And so Joseph Ball changed the subject. Bowers did not supply explicit evidence to the authorities of gunshots from the grassy knoll, but his credible account of two men standing by the fence, and of a ‘commotion’ at the time of the shooting, surely makes him one of the most intriguing eye–witnesses to the assassination.

Shortly before his untimely death in a car crash in 1966, Lee Bowers was interviewed for Mark Lane’s film, Rush to Judgment. Extracts from the interview can be found online. According to a transcript of the interview, Bowers suggests that the two men he saw may have been on the steps leading up from Elm Street, rather than behind the fence: “And one of them, from time to time as he walked back and forth, er, disappeared behind a wooden fence which also is slightly to the west of that.” Bowers does, however, give a more detailed description of the ‘commotion’:

At the time of the shooting, in the vicinity of where the two men I have described were, there was a flash of light or, as far as I am concerned, something I could not identify, but there was something which occurred which caught my eye in this immediate area on the embankment. Now, what this was, I could not state at that time and at the time I could not identify it, other than there was some unusual occurrence — a flash of light or smoke or something which caused me to feel like something out of the ordinary had occurred there.

Ed Hoffman

Ed Hoffman, who was deaf, was standing on Stemmons Freeway, about 200 yards to the west of Dealey Plaza. He claimed to have seen two men in the railway yard behind the fence on the grassy knoll, followed by a puff of smoke among the trees, and finally one of the men passing a rifle to the other, who disassembled it, packed it in a bag, and made his escape while the first man went back to the fence.

For details of Hoffman’s account, see:

•James Douglass, op.cit., pp.262–6;

•Ed Hoffman with Ron Friedrich, Eye Witness, JFK Lancer, 1997.

•Ron Friedrich, ‘Ed Hoffman’s Changing Story,’ Kennedy Assassination Chronicles, vol.1 issue 2, pp.31f, which argues that the apparent inconsistencies in Hoffman’s story are due to his interviewers’ unfamiliarity with American Sign Language.

•M. Duke Lane, ‘Freeway Man’, which argues strongly that Hoffman’s story was largely invented, albeit for understandable reasons.

Parkland Hospital Press Conference

JFK Assassination Documents

The JFK Assassination

JFK Assassination: Basic Facts

Did Oswald Kill Kennedy?

How Did Oswald Shoot JFK?

The Single–Bullet Theory

The Rifle and Paraffin Tests

Was Oswald Framed?

“A Little Incident in Mexico City”

Silvia Odio’s Visitors

The Career of Lee Harvey Oswald

The Verdict: Guilty or Not Guilty?

JFK Conspiracy Theories

The Political Context

Further Reading

JFK Assassination Books Online

JFK Assassination Medical Evidence

The Zapruder Film: Genuine or Fake?

Fiction, Propaganda and the Media

JFK Assassination FAQs

Other JFK Assassination Texts

22 November 1963 : Book and Ebook

Other JFK Texts

JFK Assassination Documents

Grassy Knoll Witnesses

Parkland Hospital Press Conference

The Sibert and O’Neill Report

Katzenbach: Memo to Moyers

LBJ Phone Call to Joe Alsop

Carolyn Arnold’s FBI Statements

Memo: Was Oswald an FBI Agent?

Edgewood Arsenal Bullet Tests

Wesley Liebeler: Memorandum

Richard Russell and the Warren Report

CIA and Warren Report Critics

Finck: Dissecting JFK’s Wounds

Sprague: Memo re Dr Burkley

Bertrand Russell:

16 Questions on the Assassination

Mark Lane:

Oswald Innocent? A Lawyer’s Brief

Eric Norden: The Death of a President

Sylvia Meagher:

Notes for a New Investigation

Sylvia Meagher:

The Curious Testimony of Mr Givens

Lee Oswald: Speech in Alabama

George de Mohrenschildt: I Am a Patsy!

Jim Garrison: Interview with Playboy

Bill Hicks: JFK Assassination Routine

Dealey Plaza Witnesses

The most complete online record of witnesses in Dealey Plaza is that compiled by Stewart Galanor. It can be found at: http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/index.htm.

Several researchers have tried to determine how many witnesses declared that shots came from the general direction of the knoll, or the TSBD, or both directions, or neither. Because of the frequent imprecision both of the witnesses’ answers and the questions they were asked, it was easy for researchers to impose their own preferences on the figures. Consequently, the totals vary widely. For details, see:

•Harold Feldman, ‘Fifty–One Witnesses,’ Minority of One, March 1965 (Knoll 51, TSBD 32);

•Josiah Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas: A Micro–Study of the Kennedy Assassination, Bernard Geis Associates, 1967 (Knoll 33, TSBD 25);

•HSCA Report, appendix vol.2, p.122 (Knoll 20, TSBD 48).

•Stewart Galanor, Cover–Up, Kestrel Books, 1998 (Knoll 52, TSBD 48);

•John McAdams, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/shots.htm(Knoll 34, TSBD 56).

Recommended Reading

Books about the JFK assassination:

Gerald McKnight: Breach of Trust

Gerald McKnight: Breach of Trust

Peter Dale Scott: Deep Politics and the Death of JFK

Peter Dale Scott: Deep Politics and the Death of JFK

John Newman: Oswald and the CIA

John Newman: Oswald and the CIA

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So much for Mark Lane's wake....

thank you

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So much for Mark Lane's wake....

In this case. Really I disagree with both of you. I really think carrying on the debate that Mark Lane started is what Mark would have wanted.

But that wasn't my intention. It was to pay my respects, show a clip of his work that first impressed me. In passing I made a specific reference to the photograph of a small whiff of smoke. This is because if this photo is authentic, this literally a "smoking gun", but I do notice that the car in the foreground doesn't look like any car in the immediate motorcade indicating some time had to pass.

Then DVP, goes off on his blog about every reference to even cigarette smoke in the plaza, prodigiously quoting his idol VB. He seems to say it was obviously a fake because Groden processed it. End of story. Then Michael and Chuck with their opposition, which I did enjoy.

But nobody to this day has refuted the account of the 3 railway workers, without alleging some conspiracy among witnesses. For what? 1)So they could write a book that they never ended up writing? or 2) They were the victims of some whacky, smoky, mass hysteria.

We all know that it is difficult to ascertain the origin of gunshots or any noise in a wide open area. But these guys are the only witnesses with front road seats, and good acoustics, (and when I say front row seats, they also an excellent view if there were shots from the depository.)

And even if you are LNer, by what measure of investigative justice are these testimonies discounted, disallowed or changed to suit a preconceived theory? Also given the fact that the major networks showed almost no contradictory eyewitness testimony like this, except when they were forced to get their information from the earliest local broadcasts, and that was the only taste we got of it, certainly didn't say much for our democracy.

Edited by Kirk Gallaway
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