Chuck Schwartz Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 WR Westbrook appears to have been a member of an intelligence unit in Dallas, per this this piece: 488th Reserve Military Intelligence Detachment The Dallas civil defense angle is something that should be thoroughly researched, and as of yet there is scanty information in this area. There is a civil defense "axis" in place in Dallas on 11/22/63, it starts with Capt Boise B Smith, Col USAR (ret), who is the Director of the Dallas City-County Civil Defense and Disaster Commission, and also a Deputy Chief of Police reporting directly to Curry (but with no staff). Col Smith's job appears to be primarily "Shelter Mapping", which turns out to be an extensive effort involving the structural evaluation of every single building in the downtown Dallas area (including the Texas School Book Depository). Smith's responsibilities include provisioning the shelters, with food, medical supplies, and whatever communications may be needed. Next is Col John Alston ("Jack") Crichton USAR (ret), who is the Director of the Dallas Emergency Operations Center. Built away from the downtown area underneath the Health and Science Museum at the Dallas Fairgrounds, the EOC was intended (among other things) for continuity of government in the event of a nuclear war, and it contained extensive (and secure) communications facilities for that purpose. In 1956 Col Crichton started what became the 488th Reserve Military Intelligence Detachment. It's original purpose was to provide the national security council with information pertaining to foreign countries' usage of (and interest in) oil. Gradually from 1959 to 1961 the focus of the unit shifted away from petroleum and towards "subversives", and in that capacity the 488th employed 50 to 100 Dallas police officers as its eyes and ears (including, according to Crichton, the entirety of the DPD Intelligence Division). Known members of the 488th include: Jack Crichton George Lumpkin Jack Revill Pat Gannaway William Westbrook Frank Brandstetter Jack Earnest Likely members of the 488th include: Boise B Smith Gerald Hill Don Stringfellow Likely assets of the 488th include: George de Mohrenschildt (interesting note on Lumpkin: he was Frank Brandstetter's commanding officer during the war) There are many allegations that the Dallas Emergency Operations Center was in use on the day of the Kennedy assassination. If so, Col Jack Crichton (in his capacity as Director of the EOC) was the man with the codes - however at the time of the assassination he was attending a luncheon at the Adolphus Hotel, in celebtration of his alma mater's football team, in front of dozens of witnesses. (In other words, he was nowhere near the Emergency Operations Center, even though he could have gone there after the luncheon). No one ever asked Boise Smith where he was or what he was doing at the time of the assassination. He was not interviewed by any investigative body, not the FBI, and not the Warren Commission or the HSCA. The known members of the 488th Reserve Military Intelligence Detachment played a key role in the events of November 22. For example, Captain William Westbrook was head of the DPD Personnel Division, he was a desk jockey who'd never been involved in any field investigations, yet on the day of the assassination he manages to be not only present, but the ranking officer at the scene of the Tippit shooting and at the Texas Theater. Westbrook is the one seen handling the mystery wallet during the footage filmed by WFAA newsman Ron Reiland. As another example, Jack Revill almost came to blows with FBI Agent James Hosty the day before the assassination, over a remark Revill made to the effect that he didn't want to be out there the next day "protecting that son of a bitch". One is led to wonder how many other members of the 488th harbored such right wing viewpoints. It is noteworthy that Jack Crichton ran for Governor of Texas in 1964, on the Republican ticket, at a time when there were no Republicans in Texas (the legenday "Texas Democrats" effectively contained both the right and the left). The most interesting aspect of the 488th Reserve is how it transitioned from being the 488th "Strategic" Intelligence "Detachment", to becoming the 488th "Military" Intelligence "Division". That transition seems to have a lot to do with the personal story of Jack Crichton, and his relationship with the Dallas oil community. In 1959 Crichton had invested a lot of money into the Cuban Venezuelan Oil Voting Trust, and encouraged many of his friends and business partners to do the same. It was the hottest stock on Wall Street for a while, the company had negotiated drilling rights to 15 million acres in Cuba under Batista. However shortly after Castro took power he declared the maximum size of any foreign venture to be 20,000 acres - and the company went belly-up and all the investors lost their money. (This is only one example of what happened across the board after Castro came to power, Pepsi lost their sugar fields too). People like Crichton had to wonder why the US government was so reluctant to get rid of this communist pest who was making American wealth disappear - and if they weren't reluctant, why they weren't more successful. Part of the answer, is that Castro survived over 600 assassination attempts by the CIA, and he always seemed to know what was happening before it happened. Castro's spies had infiltrated almost every aspect of the American government (including the CIA, the FBI, and the State Department, and even the military), and the Mafia too. There are National Intelligence reports in the National Archives that indicate security was enhanced in this area at some point, and that there were active counterintelligence operations designed to weed out Cuban spies. In this context, the transition of the 488th becomes more logical. Boise B Smith's military background includes the de-nazification of Europe and the de-japification of China, perhaps part of his role was to gather intelligence on communists in the Dallas area. On 11/22, Don Stringfellow sent information over to the 112th Military Intelligence Group in San Antonio, which then found its way into a memo to MacDill Air Force Base in Florida. The information indicated that Oswald was a "card-carrying communist" and had "defected to Cuba", neither of which was true. The DPD assertion is the information came from the Texas Departmenf of Public Safety, however it certainly isn't an accurate representation of what was in Oswald's file (because we have a verbal picture of that file from several different sources, including Col George E Jones of the 112th who says the file contained information about Oswald's arrest with Carlos Bringuier in New Orleans). In any event, it is indeed significant that the same person who was in charge of the 488th Reserve, was also the Director of the Dallas Emergency Operations Center. Jack Crichton was an oil man, he was OSS during the war but then went on to participate in the discovery of the largest oil field in the world (at that time - in Kuwait). He was business partners with Clint Murchison, HL Hunt, DH Byrd, and George de Mohrenschildt - and a fellow named Joe Zeppa, who flew George HW Bush from Tyler to Houston a few hours after the assassination (at Crichton's request). The chain of command for the 488th Reserve went up through the Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, and this office in turn vectored petroleum-related information over to the CIA for inclusion in National Intelligence Estimates. Such estimates were important during the Iraq conflict involving Qasim in 1958, who tried to claim all of Kuwait as merely another Iraqi province. It is possible Jack Crichton himself had nothing to do with the JFK Assassination, but there is an abundance of evidence indicating that the members of his 488th Reserve did. Capt Westbrook for example, is suspected of planting the "Hidell" name at the scene of the Tippit shooting, by yelling it out to FBI Agent Bob Barrett as he was examining the mystery wallet. Nevertheless there is some evidence that Crichton was an organizing force for whatever military-police relationship may hav existed. Fabian Escalante (the head of Cuban Intelligence) claims that Jack Crichton and George HW Bush were involved in Operation 40 from the very beginning, in the specific role of private fund raising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 WR Westbrook appears to have been a member of an intelligence unit in Dallas, per this this piece: 488th Reserve Military Intelligence Detachment Hello Chuck, Whole lotta good info in this. Do you have a source, or is this something you wrote up yourself? Thanks for posting this! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) . ... and the framing of Oswald Evidence newly compiled by John Armstrong shows that two DPD policemen, Captain W.R. Westbrook and reserve officer Kenneth Croy, were intimately involved in the murder of J.D. Tippit and the framing of "Lee Harvey Oswald" for the assassination of JFK. This information is contained in a major update to the "November 22, 1963" page at the Harvey and Lee Website, which I just put up a few hours ago. http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm Jim, Do I understand correctly that Cecil McWatters' bus was headed toward the TSBD when it was boarded by police? If so, this certainly supports the notion that the police went out of their way to target that bus. I had always assumed that the bus was headed away from the TSBD location. Because then at least it might make sense for police to check the people on it. Though one has to wonder why the weren't therefore checking every vehicle leaving the area. (Maybe they were and I'm just not aware of it.) EDIT: I just found the answer to my question in Accessories After the Fact. The bus was some distance from the TSBD when it picked up teenager Roy Milton Jones at about 12:15 PM. It picked up Oswald and the blond woman about 6 blocks before reaching the TSBD. Then Oswald and the blond woman got off, and the two police boarded the bus about 4 blocks before the TSBD. So Oswald was on the bus for less than two blocks. (In heavy traffic.) Is there a timeline showing at what time Oswald entered the bus? And when the police did? I'd like to know just how much the police knew when the two officers entered the bus. For example, had they found the rifle yet? Edited June 2, 2016 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 Hi, Sandy, What a great question!! Why would the designated patsy for the assassination of JFK walk away from the murder scene and then get on a bus heading TOWARD the scene of the crime? For that matter, why would Dallas cops search that very same bus right after the assassination while it was STILL heading TOWARD the Book Depository? Even weirder, why would U.S. Army civilian employee Stuart Reed snap a picture of the front of that bus, and the back of that bus at the very time it was approaching the Book Depository, and also take pictures of the front of the Book Depository and then just happen to take high qualtiy shots of "Lee Harvey Oswald" being led out of the Texas Theater by Dallas's Finest? WHAT LUCK!! It's almost as if someone had instructed a certain desginated patsy to be on that very bus, a bus that didn't even go anywhere near his rooming house. (Harvey Oswald boarded McWatters' bus about 12:40 PM and, according to Roy Milton Jones, police boarded the bus just a few minutes later. Lee Oswald left the Book Depository in a green Nash Rambler and was seen by Roger Craig and several others.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) Do I understand correctly that Cecil McWatters' bus was headed toward the TSBD when it was boarded by police? Jim, You said the bus route didn't go near LHO's rooming house. What was it's route AFTER passing the TSBD? Sandy and Jim, Perhaps like the movie theater, he was supposed to meet someone on the bus? Someone he knew, or someone who knew him. Could he have been handed the revolver and/or the torn-in-half bills on the bus? It has never made sense to me that he went 'home' to retrieve the revolver. There was no place in the room to hide it, and IIRC, the owner checked the room regularly for alcohol. Or, no contact-get off bus, back to TSBD, and enter Rambler station wagon. Then go to backup rendezvous at the theater to meet someone he did not know, hence the torn bills. Edited June 2, 2016 by Tom Neal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Schwartz Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Tom, I did not write that piece. I got it off the internet by googling JFK and WR Westbrook. There is a thread on this website called 488 Military intelligence..Here are some snapshots.. served as the unit's commander under Lieutenant Colonel George Whitmeyer, who was in overall command of all Army Reserve units in East Texas. In an interview Crichton claimed that there were "about a hundred men in that unit and about forty or fifty of them were from the Dallas Police Department." In November 1963 Jack Alston Crichton was involved in the arrangements of the visit that President John F. Kennedy made to Dallas. His close friend, Deputy Police Chief George L. Lumpkin, and a fellow member of the the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment, drove the pilot car of Kennedy's motorcade. (Lumpkin would later tell the House Select Committee on Assassinations that he had been consulted by the Secret Service on motorcade security, and his input had eliminated an alternative route). Also in the car was Lieutenant Colonel George Whitmeyer. The pilot car stopped briefly in front of the Texas School Book Depository, where Lumpkin spoke to a policeman controlling traffic at the corner of Houston and Elm. As Russ Baker points out in Family of Secrets (2008) Crichton served as the "intelligence unit's only commander... until he retired from the 488th in 1967". http://www.spartacus...k/JFK488mid.htm • Per Bill Kelly, this is a good URRL address: Posted 14 January 2009 - 03:35 AM http://jfk.ci.dallas...11/1173-001.gif • • 8,792 posts • Gender:Male Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:55 AM See post How did the police first learn of 1026 N. Beckley? By Steve Thomas http://educationforu...?showtopic=2331 and from PDS's Deep Politics & the Death of JFK: p. 276 The Plot and the Coverup – Deep Politics and the Death of JFK by PDS ...two minutes earlier by Jack Alston Crichton, a right-wing Republican, oil operator, member of Army Intelligence Reserve (9 WH 106), and head of "a local Army Intelligence Unit" (WCD 386, SS 1058). Crichton knew Mamantov personally as a fellow petroleum geologist. He also knew him because Mamantov was a precinct chairman o the Republican party, for which Crichton became the 1964 candidate for governor of Texas. It is not known how many Dallas policemen were also (as is apparently a widespread practice) members of the U.S. Army Reserve. One such reservist was Detective Adamik (7 WH 203), a member of the party which retrieved the rifle-blanket from the Paine garage and later reported what he overheard at Mamantov's interview of Marina about the rifle ("She said that it looked like her husband's rifle. She said that it was dark"; 24 WH291). Another member of Army Intelligence Reserve was Captain W. P. Gannaway, Revill's supervisor as head of the Dallas Police Special Service Bureau (WCD 1426.26; 19 WH 120); Gannaway's secretary was reported by an out-of-town police chief to be "closely connected" to Jack Ruby (WCD 86.151). This story was plausible, given the close connection between Ruby and the SSB, including men who participated in the search of the TSBD and the arrest of Oswald. Since the protection of visiting dignitaries was one of the SSB's responsibilities (5 WH48), Gannaway was involved in the meetings arranged by Secret Service advance man Winston Lawson for the Kennedy visit (5 WH39; 7 WH 580). According to a news story in FBI files, in 1963 both Captain Gannaway and his subordinate Lieutenant Revill were assigned a special responsibility for "espionage and subversive activities" in Dallas. This was in conjunction with Federal Bureau of Investigation agents, military intelligence teams from the army, navy, and air force, and other federal agencies with investigators operating from headquarters here…The job of [Revill's] intelligence section in Capt. Gannaway's bureau…requires the closest cooperation with these other governmental agencies gathering intelligence on subversive groups suspected of espionage…With membership in a national police intelligence organization known as LEIU (Law Enforcement Intelligence Units) the local officers are able to get information almost immediately on suspected subversives when they move into Dallas. This information is exchanged by police units as these persons move from city to city…Employes in [industrial] plants are carefully screened by security conscious personnel officers, and in key jobs are given strict government security clearances. Industry is taking great strides to upgrade security practices. One such group in this area is the American Society for Industrial Security. 10 The possibility that Oswald was an informant for this centralized security team would explain his visit to the Dallas American Civil Liberties Union, a liberal group being investigated by Revill's intelligence section, in the company of an extreme right-winger (Michael Paine). 11. One can see how easily a false legend for Oswald could have been generated in the shared files of this coordinated security campaign, involving the Dallas SSB, FBI, military intelligence, and the American Society for Industrial Security. Such a centralized file system could be the source for the recurring (and unexplained) inversion of Oswald's name, as Harvey Lee Oswald, in the files of the Dallas police (e.g., 19 WH 438, 24 WH 259), FBI (e.g., 23 WH 207, 23 WH 373), Secret Service (16 WH 721, 748), army intelligence, and navy intelligence. 12. The most intriguing "Harvey Lee Oswald" document is Jack Revill's list of employees at the Texas School Book Depository, compiled right after the assassination, before Oswald had been apprehended for the Tippit murder. For some unexplained reason, Oswald's inverted name ("Harvey Lee Oswald") was at the very head of that list, accompanied by an address, "605 Elsbeth," that slightly misrepresented the address (602 Elsbeth) where he had resided a year earlier (24 WH 259). 13 The Elsbeth address does suggest that Oswald's data had been parked for some time before the assassination in an intelligence file, not hitherto identified. One possibility would be the files of the LEIU, the Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit, the intercity police-intelligence organization of which Revill as the lead local representative. LEIU's files, unlike ordinary police files, cannot be given to any civilian authorities and are treated as exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. As we shall see, it was also a frequent practice for the LEIU member intelligence units to collaborate with army intelligence. 14. Another army reserve officer in Dealey plaza may have been Winston Lawson, the White House Secret Service agent responsible for the choice of the Kennedy motorcade route (4 WH 318). Lawson's first three reports of what happened on and before November 22 raise considerable questions about his performance…… Edited by William Kelly, 14 January 2009 WC Hearings Vol. 21, p. 578 About 9:30 a.m., November 22, 1963, Deputy Chief G. L. Lumpkin, joined by homicide detectives F. W. Turner and B. L. Senkel and Lt. Colonel George Whitmeyer, U.S. Army, Dallas Sub-secion Commnader, proceeded to Love Field over the route, as pilot car, to be taken by the President on the return trip. At this time, Detecive Senke and Turner and Colonel Whitmeyer were told that our mission would be to travel the motorcade route from Love Field to the Trade Mart. They were instructed we would be approximately one-fourth (1/4) mile ahead of the motorcade, and that we would be alert for motor vehicle accidents, fires and obstructions along the route. We would report anything we observed in the crowd or along the route that would be detrimental to the main party. ...Deputy Chief G. L. Lumplin turned Main Street to Houston Street, stopped momentarily at the corner of Houston and Elm Street and notified the man working traiffic at that corner that hte motorcade was about 2 or 3 minutes behind us. Stevenson Exhibit No. 5053 We would observe buildings and other points as security measures and should anything arise that, in our opinion, might cause the motorcade to be stopped or to be placed in danger, it was to be immediately radioed by Channel 11 to the lead car occupied by Chief J. E. Curry, Sheriff J. E. Decker and two Secret Service agents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 Do I understand correctly that Cecil McWatters' bus was headed toward the TSBD when it was boarded by police? Jim, You said the bus route didn't go near LHO's rooming house. What was it's route AFTER passing the TSBD? Sandy and Jim, Perhaps like the movie theater, he was supposed to meet someone on the bus? Someone he knew, or someone who knew him. Could he have been handed the revolver and/or the torn-in-half bills on the bus? It has never made sense to me that he went 'home' to retrieve the revolver. There was no place in the room to hide it, and IIRC, the owner checked the room regularly for alcohol. Or, no contact-get off bus, back to TSBD, and enter Rambler station wagon. Then go to backup rendezvous at the theater to meet someone he did not know, hence the torn bills. Hi, Tom, I see Chuck Schwartz has elaborated above on his earlier post about Captain Westbrook, and that may require some study. In the meantime, since I already decided to post this .... Before arriving or after leaving the TSBD, McWatters' bus route never got even close to 1026 N. Beckley. I don't think the fellow the world knows as "Lee Harvey Oswald" ever got into a Nash Rambler on Elm St. (but someone else who looked a little like him and was legally named "Lee Harvey Oswald" probably did)! Here are two paragraphs from Mr. Armstrong's write-up that might be of interest to you. After shots were fired at President Kennedy, LEE Oswald walked through the office of the Book Depository and was seen by Mrs. Reid carrying a coke and wearing a white t-shirt. He then left the building and may have been given a pistol by Jack Ruby, as witnessed by three women from the Dal-Tex Bldg. LEE Oswald then walked west on the Elm Street extension in front of the TSBD and waited. At 12:40 PM a light colored Nash Rambler station wagon, with a chrome luggage rack, pulled over to the curb and stopped. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig heard a shrill whistle, which attracted his attention, and watched as a young man wearing a white t-shirt walked over to the car and got in. Craig identified the man as (LEE) Harvey Oswald. Marvin Robinson was driving his Cadillac directly behind the Nash Rambler when it suddenly stopped. Robinson saw a white male hurry over to the car and get in. Robinson's employee, Roy Cooper, was following him in a different vehicle and also saw the man hurry over and get into the car. Both men told the FBI the man who got into the Nash Rambler was (LEE) Harvey Oswald, but neither man was interviewed by the WC. Helen Forrest saw the same man run toward the Nash Rambler and get in. She said, "If it wasn't Oswald, it was his identical twin." Helen Forrest was never interviewed by the WC nor was her statement published in the WC volumes. The Nash Rambler was last seen driving under the triple overpass with LEE Oswald, who was wearing a white t-shirt. Before meeting up with Officer Tippit near 10th & Patton, LEE Oswald acquired a pistol and a light colored medium-sized jacket that he wore over his white t-shirt. .... Victoria Adams, who worked in the TSBD, told the WC that she observed a man standing on the corner of Houston and Elm a few minutes after the assassination who may have been Jack Ruby. Across the street Mrs. Louis Velez, and two co-workers, saw Ruby walking up and down the street near the TSBD. When LEE Oswald came out of the building, they saw Ruby give a pistol to him. The women knew Oswald, who ate with them at a nearby restaurant, and both were acquainted with Jack Ruby. Mrs. Velez told her story of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol to her mother (Mrs. Evelyn Harris), who was interviewed by FBI agent Manning on 11/30/63. Neither Mrs. Velez nor her co-workers were interviewed by the DPD or FBI and given the opportunity to confirm or deny their story. If their story is true, then Ruby was deeply involved in the assassination. Ruby knew and associated with LEE Oswald in the summer of 1963, while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans. If you haven't seen it, folks, please take a look at John Armstrong's major new revision of his write-up called "November 22, 1963" on my webpage here: http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm If you were ever suspicious of the Dallas Police Department's possible involvement in JFK's assassination, and want to know which two or three guys were involved (Roscoe White isn't discussed since there is no record of his activities on 11/22/63) read the page above. After more than half a century, I believe we finally know how in the Dallas Police Department was complicit in the assassination of President John Kennedy and Officer J.D. Tippit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Hi, Tom, I see Chuck Schwartz has elaborated above on his earlier post about Captain Westbrook, and that may require some study. In the meantime, since I already decided to post this .... Before arriving or after leaving the TSBD, McWatters' bus route never got even close to 1026 N. Beckley. I don't think the fellow the world knows as "Lee Harvey Oswald" ever got into a Nash Rambler on Elm St. (but someone else who looked a little like him and was legally named "Lee Harvey Oswald" probably did)! Here are two paragraphs from Mr. Armstrong's write-up that might be of interest to you. After shots were fired at President Kennedy, LEE Oswald walked through the office of the Book Depository and was seen by Mrs. Reid carrying a coke and wearing a white t-shirt. He then left the building and may have been given a pistol by Jack Ruby, as witnessed by three women from the Dal-Tex Bldg. LEE Oswald then walked west on the Elm Street extension in front of the TSBD and waited. At 12:40 PM a light colored Nash Rambler station wagon, with a chrome luggage rack, pulled over to the curb and stopped. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig heard a shrill whistle, which attracted his attention, and watched as a young man wearing a white t-shirt walked over to the car and got in. Craig identified the man as (LEE) Harvey Oswald. Marvin Robinson was driving his Cadillac directly behind the Nash Rambler when it suddenly stopped. Robinson saw a white male hurry over to the car and get in. Robinson's employee, Roy Cooper, was following him in a different vehicle and also saw the man hurry over and get into the car. Both men told the FBI the man who got into the Nash Rambler was (LEE) Harvey Oswald, but neither man was interviewed by the WC. Helen Forrest saw the same man run toward the Nash Rambler and get in. She said, "If it wasn't Oswald, it was his identical twin." Helen Forrest was never interviewed by the WC nor was her statement published in the WC volumes. The Nash Rambler was last seen driving under the triple overpass with LEE Oswald, who was wearing a white t-shirt. Before meeting up with Officer Tippit near 10th & Patton, LEE Oswald acquired a pistol and a light colored medium-sized jacket that he wore over his white t-shirt. .... Victoria Adams, who worked in the TSBD, told the WC that she observed a man standing on the corner of Houston and Elm a few minutes after the assassination who may have been Jack Ruby. Across the street Mrs. Louis Velez, and two co-workers, saw Ruby walking up and down the street near the TSBD. When LEE Oswald came out of the building, they saw Ruby give a pistol to him. The women knew Oswald, who ate with them at a nearby restaurant, and both were acquainted with Jack Ruby. Mrs. Velez told her story of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol to her mother (Mrs. Evelyn Harris), who was interviewed by FBI agent Manning on 11/30/63. Neither Mrs. Velez nor her co-workers were interviewed by the DPD or FBI and given the opportunity to confirm or deny their story. If their story is true, then Ruby was deeply involved in the assassination. Ruby knew and associated with LEE Oswald in the summer of 1963, while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans. If we assume for a moment that there was only one Oswald at the TSBD that day, I would conclude from reading the above, and from reading the testimony of the bus driver and the teenager on the bus, that it was our Oswald (the one killed by Ruby) who got into the Rambler. And that the person who got into the bus was not Oswald. Correct me if I am wrong, but the testimony pointing to Oswald being on the bus is quite weak. Neither the bus driver nor the teenager got a good look at him. On the other hand, there were a number of witnesses who saw Oswald entering the Rambler, even some who knew him. Remember also, Oswald's response under interrogation when he said that the station wagon was Ruth Paine's, and not to bring her into this. Why would Oswald have said this had the interrogators not brought up the car he had hopped into? Now, there is one problem with this analysis. (At least one, anyway.) And that is that Ruth Paine supposedly didn't own a Rambler station wagon, according to an FBI report. In JFK and the Unspeakable, author James Douglass dismisses that FBI report. So apparently he believes that Ruth Paine did indeed own a Rambler station wagon. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this. I know that what I'm saying here contradicts a portion of Armstrong's essay. But I think that challenging it when warranted is the right thing to do. (And I say that as an Armstrong fan.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Hi, Tom, I see Chuck Schwartz has elaborated above on his earlier post about Captain Westbrook, and that may require some study. In the meantime, since I already decided to post this .... Before arriving or after leaving the TSBD, McWatters' bus route never got even close to 1026 N. Beckley. I don't think the fellow the world knows as "Lee Harvey Oswald" ever got into a Nash Rambler on Elm St. (but someone else who looked a little like him and was legally named "Lee Harvey Oswald" probably did)! Here are two paragraphs from Mr. Armstrong's write-up that might be of interest to you. After shots were fired at President Kennedy, LEE Oswald walked through the office of the Book Depository and was seen by Mrs. Reid carrying a coke and wearing a white t-shirt. He then left the building and may have been given a pistol by Jack Ruby, as witnessed by three women from the Dal-Tex Bldg. LEE Oswald then walked west on the Elm Street extension in front of the TSBD and waited. At 12:40 PM a light colored Nash Rambler station wagon, with a chrome luggage rack, pulled over to the curb and stopped. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig heard a shrill whistle, which attracted his attention, and watched as a young man wearing a white t-shirt walked over to the car and got in. Craig identified the man as (LEE) Harvey Oswald. Marvin Robinson was driving his Cadillac directly behind the Nash Rambler when it suddenly stopped. Robinson saw a white male hurry over to the car and get in. Robinson's employee, Roy Cooper, was following him in a different vehicle and also saw the man hurry over and get into the car. Both men told the FBI the man who got into the Nash Rambler was (LEE) Harvey Oswald, but neither man was interviewed by the WC. Helen Forrest saw the same man run toward the Nash Rambler and get in. She said, "If it wasn't Oswald, it was his identical twin." Helen Forrest was never interviewed by the WC nor was her statement published in the WC volumes. The Nash Rambler was last seen driving under the triple overpass with LEE Oswald, who was wearing a white t-shirt. Before meeting up with Officer Tippit near 10th & Patton, LEE Oswald acquired a pistol and a light colored medium-sized jacket that he wore over his white t-shirt. .... Victoria Adams, who worked in the TSBD, told the WC that she observed a man standing on the corner of Houston and Elm a few minutes after the assassination who may have been Jack Ruby. Across the street Mrs. Louis Velez, and two co-workers, saw Ruby walking up and down the street near the TSBD. When LEE Oswald came out of the building, they saw Ruby give a pistol to him. The women knew Oswald, who ate with them at a nearby restaurant, and both were acquainted with Jack Ruby. Mrs. Velez told her story of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol to her mother (Mrs. Evelyn Harris), who was interviewed by FBI agent Manning on 11/30/63. Neither Mrs. Velez nor her co-workers were interviewed by the DPD or FBI and given the opportunity to confirm or deny their story. If their story is true, then Ruby was deeply involved in the assassination. Ruby knew and associated with LEE Oswald in the summer of 1963, while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans. If we assume for a moment that there was only one Oswald at the TSBD that day, I would conclude from reading the above, and from reading the testimony of the bus driver and the teenager on the bus, that it was our Oswald (the one killed by Ruby) who got into the Rambler. And that the person who got into the bus was not Oswald. Correct me if I am wrong, but the testimony pointing to Oswald being on the bus is quite weak. Neither the bus driver nor the teenager got a good look at him. On the other hand, there were a number of witnesses who saw Oswald entering the Rambler, even some who knew him. Remember also, Oswald's response under interrogation when he said that the station wagon was Ruth Paine's, and not to bring her into this. Why would Oswald have said this had the interrogators not brought up the car he had hopped into? Now, there is one problem with this analysis. (At least one, anyway.) And that is that Ruth Paine supposedly didn't own a Rambler station wagon, according to an FBI report. In JFK and the Unspeakable, author James Douglass dismisses that FBI report. So apparently he believes that Ruth Paine did indeed own a Rambler station wagon. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this. I know that what I'm saying here contradicts a portion of Armstrong's essay. But I think that challenging it when warranted is the right thing to do. (And I say that as an Armstrong fan.) In the second photograph within the linked article showing a view of the Paine house, part of a station-wagon can be seen parked on the driveway in front of the garage (behind what appears to be BWF's car?) - can anyone tell what make/model car this is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Price Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Ian, the station wagon is a 1955 Chevrolet and the car behind BWF's is a 1955/1956 Oldsmobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 If we assume for a moment that there was only one Oswald at the TSBD that day, I would conclude from reading the above, and from reading the testimony of the bus driver and the teenager on the bus, that it was our Oswald (the one killed by Ruby) who got into the Rambler. And that the person who got into the bus was not Oswald. Correct me if I am wrong, but the testimony pointing to Oswald being on the bus is quite weak. Neither the bus driver nor the teenager got a good look at him.... There was a very long thread on this forum that many members believe showed that the bus and taxi rides described in the Warren Report never happened. And you're right that some of the testimony is hardly definitive. But the overall EVIDENCE for the rides is very strong. For one thing, at least according to Fritz's notes, Harvey Oswald said he took the bus and taxi rides during his police interrogations. John has written a lengthy essay showing just how good the bus and taxi ride evidence is, and how difficult it would have been to fake the evidence within a few hours of the assassination. See: http://harveyandlee.net/Leaving/Leaving_the_TSBD.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) In the second photograph within the linked article showing a view of the Paine house, part of a station-wagon can be seen parked on the driveway in front of the garage (behind what appears to be BWF's car?) - can anyone tell what make/model car this is? It looks like the 1955 Chevrolet Bel Air wagon that Ruth Paine owned. Not like a Rambler wagon. Edited June 3, 2016 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 OK, thanks all regarding the station-wagon (still puzzled by BWF's car being there if, of course, it is his)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 If we assume for a moment that there was only one Oswald at the TSBD that day, I would conclude from reading the above, and from reading the testimony of the bus driver and the teenager on the bus, that it was our Oswald (the one killed by Ruby) who got into the Rambler. And that the person who got into the bus was not Oswald. Correct me if I am wrong, but the testimony pointing to Oswald being on the bus is quite weak. Neither the bus driver nor the teenager got a good look at him.... There was a very long thread on this forum that many members believe showed that the bus and taxi rides described in the Warren Report never happened. And you're right that some of the testimony is hardly definitive. But the overall EVIDENCE for the rides is very strong. For one thing, at least according to Fritz's notes, Harvey Oswald said he took the bus and taxi rides during his police interrogations. John has written a lengthy essay showing just how good the bus and taxi ride evidence is, and how difficult it would have been to fake the evidence within a few hours of the assassination. See: http://harveyandlee.net/Leaving/Leaving_the_TSBD.html I just read the cab driver's (William Whaley's) statement. It is a lot more convincing than the bus driver's and teenaged rider's testimonies. (Sorry... I have a hard time remembering names.) He dropped off who he thought was Oswald just a few blocks from Oswald's apartment. In a city the size of Dallas, that would be quite a coincidence if his fare hadn't been Oswald. The curious thing is that Oswald got out of the cab five blocks AFTER the cab passed his apartment. And after Oswald got out of the cab, he walked in a direction opposite of where he would walk if he were walking home. See it here in this diagram: https://nebula.wsimg.com/ab4076b486fcf6b41f684c25be39ab48?AccessKeyId=9CD8649F35FCA7653E81&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 Why would Oswald do that? My guess is that he didn't want the cab driver to know where he lived. He was behaving the way spooks do. Let us remember that a police car stopped and honked outside Oswald's boarding house right around 1:00. The timeline in the drawing supports that. So maybe the guy who got into the Rambler really wasn't Oswald, but looked a lot like him. (Remember, some of his acquaintances identified that man as Oswald.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) Many, many years ago, the late great Sylvia Meagher brought up the most severe questions about whether or not Oswald was on that bus. Time has not cured the crevices in that story. The point about the cab driver and the five blocks away destination is also fascinating. It is testimony to how bad the WC was that they used these two stories in order to negate the Robinson/Craig testimony about Oswald coming down the incline and leaving the scene with a Latin looking man in a Rambler station wagon. That story is supported by the work of Anna Marie Kuhns Walko who, when the ARRB opened up the archives, found photos that supported it. Edited June 3, 2016 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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