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Posted (edited)
On 10/24/2018 at 2:29 PM, Mark Lawson said:

Given the state of phototypesetting and offset lithography printing circa 1961-63 (with melted-lead Linotype machines still being use by newspapers into the 1970s and early 1980s), I am skeptical that the DPD had either the time or the technology to forge the "HIDELL" Selective Service and Social Security cards overnight.  However, considering wanna'-be CIA/FBI agent Oswald's experience with commercial printing, while working in at least one printing plant, he may have had the tools and time necessary to produce these documents himself.

 

Mark,

 

It sounds like you know what you are talking about, and your reasoning is sound.

What do you think of this possibility?

Oswald created the fake Hidell Selective Service card while he was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, but he didn't sign it.

That would make what he said under interrogation by the DPD true. He admitted to having the card, but denied the signature was his.

The reason I ask is that the SS card in the name of Oswald doesn't appear to be signed, but the Hidell card is signed.

CE 801 is the Selective Service Notice of Classification for Lee Oswald

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=712&tab=page

 

CE 796 is the Selective Service Notice of Classification for Alek Hidell

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=708&tab=page

 

What do you think?

 

Steve Thomas

Edited by Steve Thomas
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Posted

I’m pretty sure that by the 1960s small publishers hardly had to rely on hot-metal Linotype machines for printing (as a student in the 1960s, I worked with thin, flexible metal “plates” that were produced directly from paper paste-ups that held paper sheets of typeset).  But leaving aside for a minute who may have produced the Hidell cards, I’d like to object calling “Lee Harvey Oswald” a “wanna-be CIA/FBI agent.” Although much suppressed, the evidence shows that the man killed by Jack Ruby was employed by both the FBI and the CIA.

For the FBI, none other than Gerald Ford pretty much spilled the beans way back in 1965 when he admitted in Portrait of the Assassin that the Texas Attorney General, District Attorney Wade and other high-ranking Texas officials told the Commission that Oswald “was actually hired by the FBI, that he was assigned the undercover-agent number 179; that he was on the FBI payroll at two hundred dollars a month starting in September 1962 and that he was still on the payroll the day he was apprehended at the Texas Theatre….”

Throughout an otherwise uninteresting book, Ford never even attempted to deny the claim, beyond saying that Hoover adamantly denied it.

Portrait_014.jpg

 

As for Oswald and the CIA, here’s a list I’ve been maintaining for several years:


21 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project Was Run by the CIA


1. CIA accountant James Wilcott testified that he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”  Contemporaneous HSCA notes indicate Wilcott told staffers, but wasn't allowed to say in Executive session, that the cryptonym for the CIA's "Oswald Project" was RX-ZIM.

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.

4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA "contact" who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and probably monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.

10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

15. CIA's Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, and he said that the CIA and the FBI ignored his warnings.

16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

20. CIA's Ann Egerter, who worked for J.J. Angleton's Counterintelligence Special Interest Group (CI/SIG), opened a "201" file on Oswald on December 9, 1960.  Egerter testified to the HSCA: "We were charged with the investigation of Agency personnel....”  When asked if the purpose was to "investigate Agency employees," she answered, "That is correct."  When asked, "Would there be any other reason for opening up a file?" she answered, "No, I can't think of one."

21. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

Krock_CIA.jpeg

 

Posted

If Bentley gave Oswald's wallet to Lt. Baker and it was inventoried and did not contain the Hidell Selective Service card in it, then how come Clements "found in lying on a desk" later Friday evening, and it did have the Hidell SS card in it?

Two different wallets? Or did somebody add things to the wallet and then left it lying around on a desk for somebody to conveniently find?

 

Steve Thomas

Posted

Steve,

That members of the Dallas PD and the FBI were calling each other liars fifty years after the event speaks volumes.  Westbrook is all over this thing. Although he seems to have had no crime investigation experience at all, he was the ranking cop at both 10th and Patton and the theatre and his name comes up again and again in the evidence handling.  Despite what they might have said at other times, not a single one of the five cops who drove Harvey Oswald to police headquarters said a thing about the Hidell ID in their reports, including Bentley. If the Hidell card was EVER in any Oswald wallet, my guess is that Westbrook either put it there or was the middle-man for the set-up team.  Clements' claim is interesting, because when he said he saw the Hidell ID, the evidence was surely already being prepared for the FBI.  Again, why was there no fingerprint ink on the Hidell IDs?  I find that report hard to believe

Posted
26 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Westbrook is all over this thing.

Jim,

 

Is Westbrook generating this information about Oswald being a communist, or is he just passing it along, and was he the source of the information Stringfellow gave to the 112th down in San Antonio? Oswald admitted no such thing.

 

Gerald Hill's testimony before the Warren Commission

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

“...we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest.
I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.

 

image.thumb.png.9105e640de1bac500bcffffa3ff03b73.png

 

Steve Thomas

Posted
Quote
1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

Is Westbrook generating this information about Oswald being a communist, or is he just passing it along, and was he the source of the information Stringfellow gave to the 112th down in San Antonio? Oswald admitted no such thing.

 

When Jerry Hill – a former TV reporter – got on TV late that afternoon, he told the world about Oswald’s time and adventures in the USSR. When asked how he knew all that, he said “Westbrook told me!”

 --Bill Simpich, 2016

I don't know Mr. Simpich's source for that, but he's usually pretty careful with his claims.  He said it on one of Jefferson Morley's pages.  By "late that afternoon," he meant the afternoon of 11/22/63.

Posted

John A. and I just now expanded the James Wilcott page on HarveyandLee.net.  Mr. Wilcott, a long-time CIA accountant stationed in Japan, testified to the HSCA that money he personally disbursed from CIA funds went to "Oswald or the Oswald Project."  According to HSCA staff notes, Mr. Wilcott said, but wasn't even allowed to say during an Executive Session (a secret hearing) , that the CIA cryptonym for the Oswald Project was RX-ZIM.  According to the HSCA notes, Mr. Wilcott also asked to be given a lie detector test.  See everything that's new, including HSCA staff notes, at the following link:

James Wilcott Testimony and Notes

Posted
On 10/25/2018 at 3:46 AM, Steve Thomas said:

What do you think of this possibility?

Oswald created the fake Hidell Selective Service card while he was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall....

From what I have read, it seems logical that Oswald would have had the know-how and the available technology to do that. Your hypothesis regarding the presence or absence of signatures also seems plausible to me.

As to Jim H's comment's, I did not intend to state or imply that those documents had been produced using a hot-lead Linotype machine.  Rather, they appear to me to have been made by producing camera-ready artwork, from which photographic negatives, and then metal printing plates, would have been made.  I believe this would have been one of the predominant production processes in use at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall at that time.

Regarding Oswald's "wanna'-be" CIA agent status, to me that's a matter of semantics as much as anything else.  I have no doubt that Oswald was at the very least a paid CIA asset; but if he was indeed an agent, in the strictest sense of formal CIA classification, then it seems entirely possible that it was the CIA itself that furnished him with those multiple - phony - identification cards and corresponding identities.  ML

Posted

Mark,

Sounds reasonable to me.  I'm told (but haven't seen his remarks) that Bill Simpich said somewhere that the most important issue today for JFK researchers is to identify the other Oswald (call him an impostor, or LEE, or a second LHO) who set up the Oswald killed by Jack Ruby. 

Posted
On 10/25/2018 at 9:21 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

As for Oswald and the CIA, here’s a list I’ve been maintaining for several years:

21 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project Was Run by the CIA

That's an interesting and compelling list, Jim.

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I'm told ... that Bill Simpich said somewhere that the most important issue today for JFK researchers is to identify the other Oswald (call him an impostor, or LEE, or a second LHO) who set up the Oswald killed by Jack Ruby.

At http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25200-i-was-a-teenage-jfk-conspiracy-freak/?page=50 you write: "... Visit HarveyandLee.net to see what several people here are trying to dismiss.  Don't let others tell you what it says.  Decide for yourself."

 

During the past few weeks I have read just about every article on the above-referenced Jim Armstrong site - with the exception of the recently posted http://harveyandlee.net/Wilcott/Wilcott.htm (above) - and am now in the process of reading sections of the e-book version of Harvey and Lee.  To me the documented evidence makes clear that somebody - and perhaps multiple somebodies - impersonated Oswald at various times during the years and months leading up to the JFK murder.  That two young children, methodically merged into one identity by the CIA, could have such strikingly similar facial features - as posited by Armstrong - is a hard pill to swallow, but I nonetheless remain open to the evidence he presents that just such a merger could and did take place.  Call me agnostic on that point - and in the meantime keep up the good work, Jim!  ML

(As an aside, my Forum Notification Settings are configured to notify me via e-mail to new postings to message threads in which I have participated, but sometime last week those alerts stopped cold.  Has this feature been disabled?)

Posted

Thank you for the kind words, Mark.

Your skepticism that two unrelated youths, selected as fairly young children, would grow up to become twins, or near twins, is well founded.  That seems unlikely to me as well.

More believable, though, is the possibility that two unrelated children could be selected who would grow up to have similar, if hardly identical, features.  In a way, we don’t have to speculate about this.

Laura Kittrell, in 1963 an employee of the Texas Employment Commission, apparently spent time with both Oswalds in the fall of that year.   Although the two young men who appeared before her both claimed to be “Lee Harvey Oswald,” Ms. Kittrell recognized differences between the two and, immediately after the assassination, she was clearly alarmed.  She gave a thirty-page statement to the U.S. Attorney in Dallas. Her statement was hand carried to the Warren Commission by the Secret Service. But her 30-page statement and subsequent 90-page manuscript in which she discusses her interviews of the two Oswalds were ultimately ignored and suppressed.

A decade and a half later, Gaeton Fonzi of the HSCA interviewed her.  Mr. Fonzi’s notes indicate that that Ms. Kittrell said that the second Oswald “looked the same… the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing.”

Fonzi_Kittrell_8.jpg

 

Fonzi_Kittrell_9.jpg

 

I can easily imagine eyewitnesses being confused by an impostor who had “the same general outline and coloring and build” as the poor patsy schmuck killed by Jack Ruby.

Posted (edited)

Jim Hargrove,

Thank you so much for this Gaeton Fonzi interview of Laura Kittrell.  Off the top of me hat, it seems obvious that the October 21 "Oswald" at TEC was Larry Crafard, Jack Ruby's new live-in "handyman" whom he picked up at the fairgrounds.  Crafard, at a glance and from a distance, looked very similar to LHO.  After 11/22/63, Ruth Paine was certain she was looking at a picture of Lee when in fact it was the drifter/carnival worker LC.  And there can be no doubt that it was the loud obnoxious Crafard who took the high-speed test drive, having said he was Lee Oswald lately of the Soviet Union.  It was probably LC getting in the Rambler station wagon that Roger Craig saw.  It was most likely L C Crafard at the Tippit murder scene with the chunky fellow with the bushy hair.  Also it was Crafard hustled out the back of the Texas Theater after Ozzie was hustled out the front, only to be let go soon.  And then he was seen by mechanic T F White (who told Wes Wise) in a red Ford Falcon in the El Chico parking lot.  With the license plate of J D Tippit's best friend, Carl Mather, on a car that was not CM's.  The license plate was for Mather's blue 1957 Plymouth.

J Edna Hoover himself knew of someone impersonating LHO 1960-61, and using his birth certificate!, inquiring about trucks to go to Cuba; he was probably Thomas Ely Davis.  There were other Ozzie doubles, some intentionally, some probably by accident.  Vagonov (Igor?) and Thomas Masen and others.

But the Crafard impersonations October and November 1963 had to be for the nefarious purpose of setting up their ace in the hole, their patsy.  That late-in-the-day appearance on Monday 10/21/63 was so crazy, obviously.  (While LHO was at his new TSBD job, right?!)  Removing job qualifications from his resume?  Ozzie was always angling for a cushy office position -- when applying to TSBD, he made sure to include "filing, some typing," though he never did get very good at keyboard entry, quit the course he had recently tried his hand at.  And Ozzie was never in the Teamsters, right?  Those jokers, Ruby et al., didn't want the Wizard leaving TSBD for ANYTHING.

LHO was always quiet, considerate, clean and neat, while Laverne Curtis Crafard was anything but.

The fact that the War Con didn't want to hear from Laura Kittrell speaks volumes.  Talk about "suspicious behavior," for the millionth time.  While Ozzie and the rest of us can be convicted of suspicious behavior only about a hundred times a year.

PS:  It can be seen implicitly that I don't hold with the Harvey/Lee theory, but you guys from John Armstrong to Jim Hargrove to Sandy Larsen have been the most masterful enumerators of the many impersonations of that crazy beautiful diamond, my hero, Lee Harvey Ozzeewaldskovitchnikovsky.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist
date correction: 10/21/63; t F white correction
Posted
1 hour ago, Roy Wieselquist said:

Jim Hargrove,

Thank you so much for this Gaeton Fonzi interview of Laura Kittrell.  Off the top of me hat, it seems obvious that the October 20 "Oswald" at TEC was Larry Crafard, Jack Ruby's new live-in "handyman" whom he picked up at the fairgrounds.  Crafard, at a glance and from a distance, looked very similar to LHO.  After 11/22/63, Ruth Paine was certain she was looking at a picture of Lee when in fact it was the drifter/carnival worker LC.  And there can be no doubt that it was the loud obnoxious Crafard who took the high-speed test drive, having said he was Lee Oswald lately of the Soviet Union.  It was probably LC getting in the Rambler station wagon that Roger Craig saw.  It was most likely L C Crafard at the Tippit murder scene with the chunky fellow with the bushy hair.  Also it was Crafard hustled out the back of the Texas Theater after Ozzie was hustled out the front, only to be let go soon.  And then he was seen by mechanic T C White (who told Wes Wise) in the El Chico parking lot.  With the license plate of J D Tippit's best friend, Carl Mather, on a car that was not CM's.

J Edna Hoover himself knew of someone impersonating LHO 1960-61, and using his birth certificate!, inquiring about trucks to go to Cuba; he was probably Thomas Ely Davis.  There were other Ozzie doubles, some intentionally, some probably by accident.  Vagonov (Igor?) and Thomas Masen and others.

But the Crafard impersonations October and November 1963 had to be for the nefarious purpose of setting up their ace in the hole, their patsy.  That late-in-the-day appearance on Monday 10/20/63 was so crazy, obviously.  (While LHO was at his new TSBD job, right?!)  Removing job qualifications from his resume?  Ozzie was always angling for a cushy office position -- when applying to TSBD, he made sure to include "filing, some typing," though he never did get very good at keyboard entry, quit the course he had recently tried his hand at.  And Ozzie was never in the Teamsters, right?  Those jokers, Ruby et al., didn't want the Wizard leaving TSBD for ANYTHING.

LHO was always quiet, considerate, clean and neat, while Laverne Curtis Crafard was anything but.

The fact that the War Con didn't want to hear from Laura Kittrell speaks volumes.  Talk about "suspicious behavior," for the millionth time.  While Ozzie and the rest of us can be convicted of suspicious behavior only about a hundred times a year.

PS:  It can be seen implicitly that I don't hold with the Harvey/Lee theory, but you guys from John Armstrong to Jim Hargrove to Sandy Larsen have been the most masterful enumerators of the many impersonations of that crazy beautiful diamond, my hero, Lee Harvey Ozzeewaldskovitchnikovsky.

This thread is very interesting. What confounds me is the point of an impersonation at the Texas Employment agency. But Laura Kitrell is a convincing witness. How can we square this?

Posted (edited)

Paul B.,

Ms. Kittrell at a previous meeting with the real LHO "had added additional work qualification codes to Oswald's employment records to increase the possibility of his finding work."  And I bet those additional codes were for office jobs.

Seems to me the LHO impersonator removed qualifications so that Ozzie would get fewer job offers, esp. for his desired office work.  And the phony Teamster membership would do the same because there were fewer union jobs in Texas, and probably many employers saw "a union guy" as a negative rather than a plus.  All in all cutting down on potential job offers.  To keep the Wizard of Ozzie* right where they wanted him, at the TSBD.

*The Wizard because he figured out the plot better than anyone, probably better than most of those IN the plot, due to compartmentalization.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist
Posted (edited)

By the way, part of the original thesis of this topic, the "pre-arranged" part, is wrong, though it has borne much fruit.  ADRENALINE is the worst, most powerful drug ever.  The crooked police were hopped up on adrenaline.  They panicked.  How many times have you heard of crooks crashing their cars getting away from the scene of a crime?  Or having a falling out and shooting each other?

For sure many DPD were involved in Tippit's murder and the coverup.  For my money, it was Roscoe White who was "the shooter," who got po'ed, panicked and did his comrade in.  A LOT of corroboration for that.

Westbrook and Croy at the scene, in the area, sure. Maybe that's why W M Croy had to be on the defensive line with Harrison, Arnett, and King Sunday 11/24---hiding Ruby before he lunged out and gut-shot that  great American hero, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist

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