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Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...


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On 10/25/2018 at 9:52 AM, Steve Thomas said:

If Bentley gave Oswald's wallet to Lt. Baker and it was inventoried and did not contain the Hidell Selective Service card in it, then how come Clements "found in lying on a desk" later Friday evening, and it did have the Hidell SS card in it?

Two different wallets? Or did somebody add things to the wallet and then left it lying around on a desk for somebody to conveniently find?

 

Steve Thomas

So, did Oswald have his wallet on him or not?

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rose_g.htm

 

Mr. ROSE. There were some people in the office from the Book Depository and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they brought in Lee Oswald and I talked to him for a few minutes?
Mr. BALL. What did you say to him or did he say to you?
Mr. ROSE. Well, the first thing I asked him was what his name was and he told me it was Hidell.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you it was Hidell?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; he did.
Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you it was Oswald?
Mr. ROSE. No; he didn't, not right then--he did later. In a minute--I found two cards--I found a card that said "A. Hidell." And I found another card that said "Lee Oswald" on it, and I asked him which of the two was his correct name. He wouldn't tell me at the time, he just said, "You find out." And then in just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he told me to get two men and go to Irving and search his house.
Mr. BALL. Now, when he first came in there--you said that he said his name was "Hidell"?
Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that before you saw the two cards?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was.
Mr. BALL. Did he give you his first name?
Mr. ROSE. He just said "Hidell"; I remember he just gave me the last name of "Hidell".
Mr. BALL. And then you found two or three cards on him?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did.
Mr. BALL. Did you search him?

Mr. ROSE. He had already been searched and someone had his billfold. I don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it or not.
Mr. BALL. And the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you?
Mr. ROSE. Yes.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/stovall.htm

 

Mr. STOVALL. Well, I was scheduled to go to work at 4 that day, I believe, but as soon as I heard that I got cleaned up and got ready for work and went on in.
Mr. BALL. Were you given an assignment as soon as you got down there?
Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I wasn't--as soon as I got there. I got there and one of my partners, G. F. Rose, got there about the same time. We were talking to a witness that had seen all the people standing out there--he didn't actually see anything, so we didn't even take an affidavit from him because he didn't see anything. While talking to him, the officers brought Lee Harvey Oswald into the Homicide Bureau and put him into an interrogation room we have there at the bureau. After we finished talking to this witness, we went back there and talked to him briefly.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said to him and what he said to you?
Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall exactly--I went in and asked him for his identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was Lee Oswald, as well as I remember. Rose and I were both in there at the time. He had his billfold and in it he had the identification of "A. Hidell," which was on a selective service card, as well as I remember.

 

Steve Thomas

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10 hours ago, Roy Wieselquist said:

Jim Hargrove,

Thank you so much for this Gaeton Fonzi interview of Laura Kittrell.  Off the top of me hat, it seems obvious that the October 21 "Oswald" at TEC was Larry Crafard, Jack Ruby's new live-in "handyman" whom he picked up at the fairgrounds.  Crafard, at a glance and from a distance, looked very similar to LHO. 

Roy,

In her lengthy essay about her experience, Laura Kittrell herself speculated that the phony Oswald might be Larry Crafard.  John Armstrong considered this possibility as well, and he and I discussed it quite few years ago.  He also discusses the possibility in Harvey and Lee. One of the reasons he gave for discounting Crafard was that, though you don’t see it in photographs published by the WC, he had extremely bad teeth, including missing front teeth.  Both of his arms were also covered in tattoos.  John felt this would be particularly obvious in person.  Finally, Ruby met Crafard when Crafard was working at the Texas State Fair, which was held October 5-20th of that year.  John concludes: "Crafard did not begin working for Ruby and living
at the Carousel club until November 1, two weeks after Laura Kittrell interviewed the "Teamster."

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13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

... Laura Kittrell, in 1963 an employee of the Texas Employment Commission, apparently spent time with both Oswalds in the fall of that year....

From the reproduced HSCA report, above: "... Kittrell explained that she had added additional work classification codes to Oswald's employment records ... [including] ... offset printing work...."

That pretty well answers the question of whether offset lithography was in use at that time, and whether Oswald had experience in using the process.  Keeping in mind that he was already using the A. Hidell alias in New Orleans at the time of his claimed work for the FPCC, if he was also using those or similar fake ID cards at that time, then the CIA could have been their source. 

From Harvey and Lee, p. 430 (414 in the PDF version): "... On October 10th [1963] Oswald was interviewed by [Texas Employment Commission] counselor Helen Cunningham ... in the clerical and professional office of the TEC at 1025 Elm Street in downtown Dallas. Mrs. Cunningham reviewed Oswald's file from Fort Worth and noted on form E-13 "GATB (General Aptitude Test Batteries)-taken Fort Worth, 4/62."121 But in April 1962, Lee Harvey Oswald was still in Russia and could not have taken GATE tests in Fort Worth. This entry may explain why Lee Oswald's file from the TEC office in Fort Worth, and most of the records from Harvey Oswald's TEC file in the Dallas office, disappeared...." [emphasis in the original]

"... Fort Worth [TEC] counselor Annie Laurie Smith interviewed [Harvey] Oswald on two occasions in 1962, but was never questioned by the Warren Commission. Counselors Donald Brooks, Laura Kittrell, and other counselors in Dallas interviewed Oswald and created numerous job application forms, but were never interviewed by the Commission...." - Ibid., p. 707 (723 in the PDF version)

 

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I'd like to present a question that doesn't necessarily pertain precisely to the "Two Dallas Cops" topic, but does involve the DPD and the deeper plot. I've asked this before on this site without getting a response, but those who are participating in this thread seem to have the knowledge required to at least speculate.

When LHO was arrested in the theater, he shouted "I am NOT resisting arrest!" Obviously, he knew his life was in danger -- -- but *exactly what* did he think he was being blamed for doing? He seems to have realized that he was the patsy fairly quickly, but what action/event was the catalyst for his realization? He appeared shocked later in the day when he learned from a reporter's question that he was accused of shooting the President.

Did he believe he was being arrested for the murder of JDT, and that was why he feared for his life? If so, unless he had pre-knowledge of JDT's murder or was the actual killer (I don't think he was...) how would he have known anything about JDT?

Why didn't LHO challenge the officers who arrested him at the theater by shouting "Why am I being arrested?" The evidence indicates that he knew WHY he was being arrested. But he did maintain his innocence throughout the next two days, so shouldn't he have at least PRETENDED ignorance? By NOT asking why he was being arrested, he is tacitly admitting that he knew he was guilty of some type of crime.

Any comments are highly welcome...

Tom

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48 minutes ago, Tom Neal said:

Why didn't LHO challenge the officers who arrested him at the theater by shouting "Why am I being arrested?"

It's quite possible that his "contact" within the theater would lead him towards the back door and he'd be taken away by J D Tippit.
Could explain the extra police shirt hanging in the rear of his car. 

Since our Ozzie is not aware of the killing of Tippit, (and he can't really think this reaction was for sneaking into a theater)
we MUST remember that if he had any contact with RUBY and friends, (after Bannister et al in New Orleans) he had to be thinking guilty thoughts..

If he was aware of any of the goings on at the TSBD.... I think he just didn't want to get hurt but seemed to know that he was on the right side of this thing when all along he was set up

That he says he is a "patsy" is enough for me to understand his awareness of a plan against him...  He never says the words "I'm innocent"...
does he?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tom Neal said:

 

Quote

When LHO was arrested in the theater, he shouted "I am NOT resisting arrest!"

Let's back up a minute Tom.

When Oswald was approached in the theater and asked to stand up, he jumped to his feet and punched a police officer in the face. Oswald then pulled his revolver and attempted to shoot that same officer, (McDonald I believe). Luckily McDonald used a technique that was still being taught when I was in the academy. He stuck the web of his hand between the cocked hammer and the backstrap of the revolver which prevented the firing pin from striking the cartridge. A scuffle then ensued, and Oswald was handcuffed. 

It wasn't until Oswald emerged from the theater, which was surrounded by people, (bystanders, media people, and other police officials), that he then proclaimed, "I am not resisting arrest!". This has been verified many times by eye witnesses at the time of his arrest. During a video taped interview one witness in particular, Johnny Brewer, the man who observed Oswald enter the theater without buying a ticket, and who identified Oswald inside the theater recalled that when he heard Oswald make this claim he laughed to himself thinking, "You're not resisting arrest now.".

 

Regards,

Craig C. 

Edited by Craig Carvalho
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5 minutes ago, Craig Carvalho said:

Let's back up a minute Tom.

When Oswald was approached in the theater and asked to stand up, he jumped to his feet and punched a police officer in the face. Oswald then pulled his revolver and attempted to shoot that same officer, (McDonald I believe). Luckily McDonald used a technique that was still being taught when I was in the academy. He stuck the web of his hand between the cocked hammer and the backstrap of the revolver which prevented the firing pin from striking the cartridge. A scuffle then ensued, and Oswald was handcuffed. 

It wasn't until Oswald emerged from the theater, which was surrounded by people, (bystanders, media people, and other police officials), that he then proclaimed, "I am not resisting arrest!". This has been verified many times by eye witnesses in the theater at the time of his arrest. During a video taped interview one witness in particular, Johnny Brewer, the man who observed Oswald enter the theater without buying a ticket, recalled that when he heard Oswald make this claim he laughed to himself thinking, "You're not resisting arrest now.".

 

Regards,

Craig C. 

Craig,

Thanks for the response. I presume your intention is to correct my statements regarding LHO's apprehension in the theater. However, if your comments are meant to alter my analysis of 'what did LHO believe at the time,' no offense intended, but I don't see the relevance, so please elaborate. 

There are many versions of this event which have been stated by witnesses, both theater patrons, employees and law enforcement. You are repeating Nick McDonald's version of the events. There are strong arguments that McDonald is not a reliable witness. His story evolved to depict him as more and more heroic as time went on, and he was criticized by his fellow officers due to his reputation for 'embellishments' and strong tendency to tell 'stories' rather than stick to the facts. Personally, I don't find him especially credible.

There are also substantiated statements that the  wrist of the hand that was holding the gun was handcuffed, but 'said wrist' was that of a fellow officer. This occurred during the struggle for the gun, not after if had been taken away from LHO. Of course it's possible that he didn't get the wrist with the gun... This also would be the time to plant the 'real gun' on him (speculation!), but nothing is certain here except that LHO did punch a cop. He even admitted it. Whether he shouted "I am not resisting arrest!" inside the theater or outside is irrelevant to my question. Either way, my point is that he clearly feared being murdered by DPD. Again, in my opinion this is a strong indication that LHO was aware of JDT's murder and as a "cop-killer" he was in mortal danger. Later that evening he was shocked to discover that he had been charged with JFK's murder, so it seems unlikely he thought he would be killed for that.

Tom

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2 hours ago, Tom Neal said:


When LHO was arrested in the theater, he shouted "I am NOT resisting arrest!" Obviously, he knew his life was in danger -- -- but *exactly what* did he think he was being blamed for doing?

Tom,

 

Bob Carroll was one of the Detectives who brought Oswald back to DPD Headquarters from the Texas Theater.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

 

"Mr. BALL. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe those were his words - the latter part - "Protest the police brutality" were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he hadn't done nothing and stuff like that.
Mr. BALL. Did he say he hadn't done anything?
Mr. CARROLL. The best I remember that was it - after we had him in the car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what he said."

 

K.E. Lyon was also one of the policemen who rode in that car back downtown. In his after-action report, Lyon wrote,

“Enroute to the City Hall, Oswald refused to answer any questions, and he kept repeating, “Why am I being arrested? I know I was carrying a gun, but why else am I being arrested?””

DPD Archives Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 29

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

 

In his testimony before the Warren Commission, Will Fritz said pretty much the same thing.

I'm guessing Oswald didn't know what he had been arrested for until his arraignment at 7:10 that Friday night.

 

Steve Thomas

 

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Since our Ozzie is not aware of the killing of Tippit, (and he can't really think this reaction was for sneaking into a theater)

we MUST remember that if he had any contact with RUBY and friends, (after Bannister et al in New Orleans) he had to be thinking guilty thoughts..

If he was aware of any of the goings on at the TSBD.... seemed to know that he was on the right side of this thing when all along he was set up

That he says he is a "patsy" is enough for me to understand his awareness of a plan against him...  He never says the words "I'm innocent"...
does he?

Being arrested almost immediately after the assassination due to connections to Ruby, Bannister, et al (particularly if he did so at the behest of FBI/CIA) is quite an unlikely coincidence. Not something he expected to result in 'murder by cop.' However, if he knew about JDT he knew he was a cop-killer...

How convinced are you that LHO was unaware of the JDT murder when he was arrested?

I agree he was aware of something important, whether it was the assassination plan, or JDT, but WHEN did he realize he was the designated patsy.?

FWiW, he DID say, 'I didn't shoot anyone.'

Tom

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9 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Mr. BALL. Did you search him?
Mr. ROSE. He had already been searched and someone had his billfold. I don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it or not.
Mr. BALL. And the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you?
Mr. ROSE. Yes.

 

This raises an interesting question. Who brought Oswald to Fritz's office on the third floor?

From the WC testimony of Bob Carroll:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

 

 

I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.
Mr. BALL. Is K. E. Lyons a detective?
Mr. CARROLL. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. He doesn't work in uniform.
Mr. BALL. He works in plain clothes?
Mr. CARROLL. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman,

 

K.E. Lyon was also one of the policemen who rode in that car back downtown.

In his after-action report, K.E Lyon wrote, “Lee Harvey Oswald was released to Captain Fritz at the Homicide and Robbery Bureau by the transporting officers.”

DPD Archives Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 29

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

Was K.E. Lyon the patrolman who had Oswald's wallet, and does this put a lie to Bentley's claim of turning Oswald's wallet over to Lieutenant Baker?

 

Steve Thomas

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2 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Tom,

 

Bob Carroll was one of the Detectives who brought Oswald back to DPD Headquarters from the Texas Theater.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

 

"Mr. BALL. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe those were his words - the latter part - "Protest the police brutality" were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he hadn't done nothing and stuff like that.
Mr. BALL. Did he say he hadn't done anything?
Mr. CARROLL. The best I remember that was it - after we had him in the car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what he said."

 

K.E. Lyon was also one of the policemen who rode in that car back downtown. In his after-action report, Lyon wrote,

“Enroute to the City Hall, Oswald refused to answer any questions, and he kept repeating, “Why am I being arrested? I know I was carrying a gun, but why else am I being arrested?””

DPD Archives Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 29

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

 

In his testimony before the Warren Commission, Will Fritz said pretty much the same thing.

I'm guessing Oswald didn't know what he had been arrested for until his arraignment at 7:10 that Friday night.

 

Steve Thomas

 

Thanks Steve,

This is excellent sourced info. I did recall that on the ride to HQ he asked why he had been arrested, but not the details you included.

As I stated earlier, I'm still surprised that he didn't shout out "Why am I being arrested?" when initially apprehended. This is an indication of guilt, so why wait until he was in the police car? He handled the later interrogation so well this seems an unlikely oversight, unless he feared from the moment the cops arrived that he would be executed by them. Given his execution two days later by Ruby, this is a reasonable assumption. The above requires him to have know that JDT had been murdered. How did he know?

Tom

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4 minutes ago, Tom Neal said:

I agree he was aware of something important, whether it was the assassination plan, or JDT, but WHEN did he realize he was the designated patsy.?

About 40 seconds in for about 25 seconds...

Did you kill the President?
No, I have not been charged with that.  In fact nobody has said that to me yet

First I heard about it was from the newspaper reporters in the hall "ax" me that question

"You have been charged"  'scuze me?  "You have been charged"....

874528529_ToldhewasarrestedforJFK.thumb.jpg.b374d75c23421c49c97e13bb4e04f4a3.jpg

From 59 seconds to his expression at 1:04... to me.... shows a disappointment about something he NEVER thought could happen to him...

 

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Did you kill the President?
No, I have not been charged with that.  In fact nobody has said that to me yet

First I heard about it was from the newspaper reporters in the hall "ax" me that question

"You have been charged"  'scuze me?  "You have been charged"....

Yup. This matches what I said in my earlier posts. I'm certain he wasn't aware any earlier than this that he was the patsy for the JFK shooting - nobody's that good of an actor. Nice of them to film it for us. For once we actually know what occurred...

But why did he punch the cop and allegedly pull the gun in the theater when he didn't expect to be tagged for JFK's shooting? I can't come up with any reason other than he was informed of, or a participant in, the murder of JDT. And I don't believe LHO killed Tippit. So, was he aware that the JDT killing was planned and assumed that it happened, or did he know? If he knew, how did he know? Was he connected to JDT himself, or others in the DPD directly, or via Jack Ruby?

BTW, I'm ignoring the Lee or Harvey aspect of all this as it gets too confusing and whatever was originally the subject gets lost in the "Two Oswalds" debate. I'm only referring to the person arrested at the theater and locked up by Dallas PD, so it doesn't matter if this person was Lee. Or Harvey. Or Lee Harvey Oswald.

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On 10/29/2018 at 2:58 PM, Tom Neal said:


But why did he punch the cop and allegedly pull the gun in the theater when he didn't expect to be tagged for JFK's shooting?

Tom,

 

Oswald didn't pull his gun. McDonald did.

From McDonald's after-action repot

DPD Archives Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 32

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

 

 

Steve Thomas

Edited by Steve Thomas
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Why he fought is a very good question ...  there'd be nothing to gain and everything to lose by resisting...  so why... ??

-----

My how times have changed...

55 years ago a man accused of shooting a fellow police officer has a gun in his hands as 6 cops subdue him... and is not shot a single time.
Not even by accident.

 

The officers fired 20 rounds at a young black man in Sacramento, who died in the yard.
Police said they thought he had a gun in his hand, but it was actually an iPhone.

The officers are never heard identifying themselves as police before fatally shooting Clark.

“He was at the wrong place at the wrong time in his own back yard?” his grandmother,
Sequita Thompson, told the Sacramento Bee. “C’mon, now, they didn’t have to do that.”

 

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