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Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...


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3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Why he fought is a very good question ...  there'd be nothing to gain and everything to lose by resisting...  so why... ??

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My how times have changed...

55 years ago a man accused of shooting a fellow police officer has a gun in his hands as 6 cops subdue him... and is not shot a single time.
Not even by accident.

 

The officers fired 20 rounds at a young black man in Sacramento, who died in the yard.
Police said they thought he had a gun in his hand, but it was actually an iPhone.

The officers are never heard identifying themselves as police before fatally shooting Clark.

“He was at the wrong place at the wrong time in his own back yard?” his grandmother,
Sequita Thompson, told the Sacramento Bee. “C’mon, now, they didn’t have to do that.”

 

or why he left the TSBD going east on Elm, before he caught the bus going west on Elm to 1026 N. Beckley?

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15 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Why he fought is a very good question ...  there'd be nothing to gain and everything to lose by resisting...  so why... ??

 

11 hours ago, Dan Doyle said:

or why he left the TSBD going east on Elm, before he caught the bus going west on Elm to 1026 N. Beckley?

One of the main points of John A’s article on Tippit’s murder (see link below) is that most of the principals involved appeared to be following orders.

Consider some of the other unusual actions of the Oswald eventually killed by Jack Ruby:

  • He goes to Ruth Paine’s Thursday night (Nov. 21) instead of Friday, his usual procedure. (Why? Probably to put his fingerprints on a brown sack that was supposed to be delivered to the house but wasn’t due to insufficient postage.)
  • He would be in the lunch room during or immediately after the president passed by?  Does that sound like him?
  • He boards the Marsalis St. bus (instead of the Beckley St. bus).  For what reason?  (At almost the same time, the “Oswald” who shot Tippit got into a Nash Rambler.)
  • The real timings indicate that someone drove him to the Texas Theatre from the area of the Beckley St. rooming house.
  • In the theater, he moves from patron to patron, apparently looking for a contact.
  • Having two torn in half dollar bills suggests who was told a contact would also have one or two in the theater.
  • ... and more.

Since the “Oswald” eventually killed by Ruby was at the Theater when Tippit was killed, how do we explain that the two witnesses closest to the Tippit murder both thought the killer looked like “Oswald.”  Was that a coincidence?  

THE MURDER OF J.D. TIPPIT

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17 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Tom,

 

Oswald didn't pull his gun. McDonald did.

From McDonald's after-action repot

DPD Archives Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 32

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

image.png.652ae531050eef8e69c9faf70b8f7dc6.png

 

Steve Thomas

Thanks, Steve.

I used the word 'allegedly' because many people DO believe he tried to shoot McDonald. According to McDonald he prevented LHO from firing the gun, but I don't find MacDonald credible, so I'm not convinced. The cops SHOULD have searched LHO for weapons when he was apprehended. I believe that the gun was discovered at this time, and McDonald grabbed it. Even if LHO was in fear of his life, would he have tried to shoot McDonald? Due to the number of police near him, I'd say no. He had no chance to escape and would only increase the chances of being killed by the police. So I'm not entirely convinced that he actually did "go for his gun..."

OtOH, he DID punch a cop which lends credence to him actually attempting to shoot McD. My only thought is that due to his fear of being killed, he panicked and hit the cop.

Tom

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15 hours ago, Dan Doyle said:

or why he left the TSBD going east on Elm, before he caught the bus going west on Elm to 1026 N. Beckley?

That wasn't him on the bus Dan....  at least not from the research I've seen

I think he was taken home in the Rambler, and then taken to the Theater by the police car that came by...

McWatters will repeatedly tell you that he was talking about Roy Milton and not Oswald...
Bledsoe's description of the arrest shirt... before he'd even been to the theater is quite the trick of clairvoyance...

 

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Oswald had plenty of time to panic, as the police approach toward him was slow and methodical, with the house lights of the theater switched on. It could well be that Oswald did not realize the police were coming for him until McDonald started down Oswald’s row.

The following day, DPD officers staged a recreation of the arrest for local television. The scuffle, as portrayed, did not feature anything like a shooting attempt or even a deliberate punch. It showed  officers converging on the suspect and initiating contact as the suspect rose from his seat. I would suggest that the punch and the shooting attempt were embellishments developed after the fact.

After the arrest, sarcastic comments by Oswald directed to police officers may have reflected his impression that these bumbling Barney Fife’s had idiotically mixed him up with another matter and therefore ruined whatever it was he thought he was doing in the theater. I suggest this because I agree that Oswald’s reaction to hearing he was being charged as JFK’s killer at the post-midnight press conference does appear to show “a disappointment about something he NEVER thought could happen to him…” So whatever it was on Oswald’s agenda, it was not to his understanding connected at all with the assassination until that moment.

Fletcher Prouty suggested Oswald’s role may have been as a facilitator for access into the TSBD building, without his understanding that this had anything to do with an assassination plot. The person or persons who set him up were trusted implicitly by him. The national media were identifying Oswald as the prime suspect by 5PM Dallas time, but Oswald doesn’t realize his position until after midnight. He was operating under an entirely different narrative until then.

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53 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

The following day, DPD officers staged a recreation of the arrest for local television. The scuffle, as portrayed, did not feature anything like a shooting attempt or even a deliberate punch. It showed  officers converging on the suspect and initiating contact as the suspect rose from his seat. I would suggest that the punch and the shooting attempt were embellishments developed after the fact.

Hey Jeff,

This "recreation" is unknown to me - - thanks for your post.

Is this something you saw yourself? If not, is there documentation regarding the actions depicted? Did it show the cop hitting LHO? When asked about the cut/bruise on his face by a reporter, LHO stated "A policeman hit me," he further stated 'I deserved it,' or something similar. If this is depicted then it's a good indicator that the reenactment was accurate.

Any additional info is greatly appreciated...

Tom

Edited by Tom Neal
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6 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

The following day, DPD officers staged a recreation of the arrest for local television. The scuffle, as portrayed, did not feature anything like a shooting attempt or even a deliberate punch. It showed  officers converging on the suspect and initiating contact as the suspect rose from his seat. I would suggest that the punch and the shooting attempt were embellishments developed after the fact.

Mr. Carter....

The local television Texas Theatre arrest recreation on 11/23/63 is news to me.  As Tom Neal said, any additional info would be gratefully appreciated!!!

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Digging into my archive I realize that two separate broadcast events got combined into one memory, so I should immediately clarify that Dallas police officers Bentley and McDonald were interviewed at WFAA studios in Dallas on the afternoon of November 23, 1963, but the segment in the Texas Theater was filmed with McDonald for the CBS Warren Report special which was broadcast later - in September 1964, the night the Warren Report was released.

Here is what McDonald said on WFAA:

“There was one person sitting back there alone in the rear of the theater and as I approached him about one foot from him he jumped out of his seat and held his hands up and said ‘this is it’ and he hit me in the face with his fist blooding my nose and I immediately grabbed him, and he went for his gun which was in his waist and I went at the same time struggling in there and I received a scratch on my cheek evidently from the hammer of the gun as it came out of his belt. And as it was coming out he snapped the trigger of the pistol which misfired, luckily.”

Asked about Oswald’s mental state:  “He was cool and calm up until that time he made that jump for me. The whole time I watched him as I approached he was calm. He didn’t flinch.”

Here is what he says for CBS, filmed at the Texas Theater:

“As I walked up the aisle Oswald was sitting in the second seat of the third row from the rear, the second seat from the right centre aisle…He was sitting with his hands in his lap. As I walked up I turned in the aisle and said ‘get on your feet.’ He stood up immediately and brought his right hand up to his chest… he brought the other one up to eye level, and he said ‘well, it’s all over now.’ At that time I was reaching this way (note-towards Oswald’s waist) and his hand got in front of mine on a pistol. And my hand grabbed the pistol… and he hit me with the left hand to the nose, and when he did I came back and hit him like this (note - McDonald tackles the Oswald stand-in into the adjacent seats) and he snapped the pistol. I turned the pistol around and got the hand on the butt, and it came over like this (note - McDonald holds the pistol away from the Oswald stand-in). I was holding him with (the other) hand, and I handed the pistol to an officer who was standing in the aisle.”

The sequence of events seems a lot clearer in the segment filmed at the theater: McDonald got very close to Oswald (“about one foot”), Oswald stood up and raised his hands, McDonald initiated contact or was about to initiate contact by reaching for Oswald’s waist, Oswald reacted (was it a “punch” or contact due to proximity?), McDonald tackled Oswald into the adjacent seats, the “scuffle” ensued and the pistol almost fired before being secured and passed to another officer (the term “scuffle” was used by Bentley during the WFAA interview).  Oswald never attempted to either point the pistol or shoot at McDonald. In my opinion, the alleged “punch” was rather a reflexive action after McDonald reached towards his waist, based on the observation that Oswald otherwise remained “cool and calm”. Previously in New Orleans Oswald was said to be cool and calm and notably non-violent during his street altercation with Bringuier.

Relevant to this thread, Bentley says during the WFAA interview that he did retrieve a wallet from Oswald in the police car as they drove away from the theater. Seeing the Elsbeth address on Oswald’s library card, Bentley asked him if that was still his address and that’s when Oswald retorted “you’re the cop, you figure it out.” No mention of a Hidell ID.

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8 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

Oswald never attempted to either point the pistol or shoot at McDonald. In my opinion, the alleged “punch” was rather a reflexive action after McDonald reached towards his waist, based on the observation that Oswald otherwise remained “cool and calm”.

Jeff,

 

When McDonald saw that pistol, he should have taken a step back, ordered Oswald to "Freeze!", and loudly inform his fellow officers that Oswald had a gun.

Instead, he made a grab for it. Oswald instinctively tried to defend himself, and they got into a wrestling match. The gun was waving around all over the place putting a whole lot of lives in danger.

McDonald walked off his post at the TSBD without orders, and abandoned his trainee, T.R. Gregory at the Temple Life Church while he went racing up and down the alleys by himself.

(See the thread called "What happened to T.R. Gregory?")

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/7488-whatever-happened-to-tr-gregory/?tab=comments#comment-69643

Reading his W.C. testimony about frisking two men while looking over his shoulder at Oswald, who was behind him, made me scoff. What policeman frisks somebody while looking over your shoulder behind you?

 

If I was McDonald's supervisor, I would have fired him on the spot.

 

Steve Thomas

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14 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

...but the segment in the Texas Theater was filmed with McDonald for the CBS Warren Report special which was broadcast later - in September 1964

Jeff,

Thanks for the additional info -- especially the quotes. The exact wording helps immensely.

Presumably, McDonald was filmed for this Report within a few months of the 09-1964 broadcast date. Given McD's proclivity for self-aggrandizement and the obvious hyperbole and bias of these CBS special reports, I expected the WFAA 11-23-1963 interview to differ significantly from the 09-1964 re-enactment. However, based upon your post I see no obvious alterations.

Do you have the videos? If so, thanks for taking the time to transcribe the dialog!

Tom

BTW, is it no longer possible to display the HTML code for editing???

Edited by Tom Neal
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16 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

...evidently from the hammer of the gun as it came out of his belt. And as it was coming out he snapped the trigger of the pistol which misfired, luckily.”

Missing from McD's story on both interviews is his later claim that he PREVENTED the gun from firing, by placing his hand in a position such that the flesh between his thumb and forefinger would interfere with the hammer and prevent the gun from firing. However, Paul Bently initially made the claim that he himself did this. No witness reported Bently having contact with LHO, so this was dismissed. A previous poster (Craig) mentions this is a procedure taught at the Police Academy. A likely presumption is that McD did this for two reasons:

  1. the appearance that he performed better/smarter than he actually did
  2. a misfiring gun makes it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that LHO had just shot JDT multiple times!

It has been stated that this gun had a bent firing pin and was incapable of firing. However, IIRC the official examination did NOT report this.

LHO proclaimed his innocence at all times. Thus, they certainly SHOULD have asked him WHY he punched the cop, and pulled his gun at the theater. There is no record of this.

Q&A transcripts frequently reveal the following:

  1. questions whose answers would not fit the required LHO-acting-alone pattern are NOT asked
  2. the subject is quickly changed if any response heads off in an unacceptable direction
  3. answers that do not fit well with the question asked, STRONGLY indicate editing of the transcript to mask unacceptable statements
  4. due to ignorance, the questioner himself doesn't grasp the significance of the question and/or the answer and therefore fails to ask followup questions

Due to the above, the "Negative Template" must be utilized. i.e. Questions not asked, and altered responses indicate reality more clearly than the actual questions and answers as stated.

IMO, LHO probably did NOT pull the gun himself, and the 'multiple hands on the gun' scenario only occurred *because* McD suddenly grabbed the gun from LHO's waistband/belt. Depending upon "why" he thought he was being arrested (e.g. cop-killer???) LHO *may* have believed McD was about to be murder him with his own gun...accidently, of course.

Tom

Edited by Tom Neal
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McDonald discussed how the skin between his thumb and forefinger prevented the gun from firing during the CBS segment.

I did not transcribe the entire segments, and I now realize that DVP has maintained these videos on his YouTube channel. Both segments are worth watching, and each are just a few minutes in duration.

So, courtesy of DVP, the WFAA segment can be viewed here, starting at 2:07:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy4Fv4xsM4Y&list=PL0O5WNzrZqIOp-NaY1P1TIr-zWKPVBL9Q&index=2

The CBS segment is found here, starting at 1:19:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI8Vp9Zyfp8

Just ahead of the sequence in the Texas Theater, the CBS program interviews Johnny Brewer, who offers some interesting body language as he describes how he, in the theater,  pointed Oswald out to the police.

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On 10/30/2018 at 1:39 PM, David Josephs said:

That wasn't him on the bus Dan....  at least not from the research I've seen

I think he was taken home in the Rambler, and then taken to the Theater by the police car that came by...

McWatters will repeatedly tell you that he was talking about Roy Milton and not Oswald...
Bledsoe's description of the arrest shirt... before he'd even been to the theater is quite the trick of clairvoyance...

 

David,

 

Help me out here.  According to Armstrong,  Lee is in the white T-shirt and was on the 6th floor and he leaves the TSBD @ 12:40; this what Roger Craig witnesses.  Harvey in the brown shirt takes public transportation to 1026 N. Beckley.  Lee is arrested in the balcony and Harvey is arrested below.....according to Armstrong

Thanks for all your postings.  I try to follow them........... but they're a little cryptic at times.

 

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4 minutes ago, Dan Doyle said:

"... Harvey in the brown shirt takes public transportation to 1026 N. Beckley...."

"Harvey and Lee" presents evidence and testimony that this "Harvey" briefly boarded the Marsalis bus - "HARVEY Oswald's boarding the Marsalis St. bus (instead of the Beckley St Bus) was unusual..." - obtained a bus transfer slip; walked a few blocks; and then took a cab to within a few blocks of the above N. Beckley address.  Two DPD officers - *perhaps* Westbrook and Croy?? - were reported to have boarded this bus just *after* Harvey's departure from it; while a civilian long employed by the US Navy took Kodachrome transparencies of both the front and back of that bus as it passed him; followed by his shot of the TSBD; "miraculously" followed by his shot of the arrested Oswald being led our of the Texas Theatre.

The Navy-employed civilian photographer then left his Kodachrome at a Dallas lab for processing, assigned the rights to investigators, and then left for Panama via New Orleans.  What a collection of coincidences....

See: https://harveyandlee.net/Leaving/Leaving_the_TSBD.html

and

http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm

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